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Have been reading some interesting articles on the purported effects that trophy hunting has had with respect to the lessening of good trophy quality over the past decades. We'd be foolish to think it is merely a figment of our imagination and another attempt by the anti hunting brigade to bring our industry into further repute. Let's consider the numbers of 100 lb elephant harvested in the earlier years and compare them with what we find today. Let's also consider the number of large buffalo, sable etc that we seem to find less and less of in this modern day of trophy hunting. As someone with almost 30 years in the industry I have certainly seen a decline in exceptional quality. Does this mean we are doing something wrong? Is our argument about "hunting for conservation" not all it's cracked up to be? Have you guys noticed a decline, slow one perhaps, over the duration of your hunting career? Various factors come to play here and one particular point is the scoring methods for certain animals, which we know targets younger animals. Since the Cecil debacle I have noticed a particular outfitter make mention on his Facebook page that "they only shoot mature males, past their breeding", and includes pictures of Leopard under this headline. How does someone determine from the track and ultimately from the cat in the tree that he is past his breeding age? Come now. I would be interested to hear your points of view. With our industry under as big a spotlight as it is, those proverbial ducks need to be gathered and put in a row, | ||
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Neil, You are right. There certainly is a drastic decline in the quality of trophies. I am not going to get into the argument that hunting is for conservation - it can be, if managed properly, and the money earned is used for conservation. But, as we all know, most of the money is used for other purposes, which have absolutely nothing to benefit the animals. I remember years ago when one can see herds of one or two dozen old buffalo bulls. Now a days one is lucky to find even one. And most of the time one has to shoot a bull from herds - something we never even considered years ago. Apart from SCI glorifying size over age, and the enormous increase of hunters going to Africa, decent trophies like buffalo are definitely not enough to go around. Being put in the spotlight, there is actually no better way to conserve animals than hunting. I understand hunters are normally shooting between 1-2% of animals annually. For that very small number, they pay an enormous amount of money to help the economy of the host country. Apart from the trophy fees, and all the other expenses the government charges, they provide employment for a large number of the population. | |||
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I was reading a paper on trophies harvested in Ugalla, Tanzania. The research encompassed a few years in the mid 2000's. The published findings did point to smaller trophy quality over the duration. Another paper I read discussed the frequency of tuskless elephant, from a mere 2% to a whopping 38% - this in an area in Zambia. Yet another paper commented on the body sizes and the fact that weights were getting smaller, quite an acceptable theory considering we target the bigger specimens, thus allowing the weaker and smaller animals to breed. Is it not time to redress this and commission a research project to ascertain for certain if current trophy hunting is in fact detrimental in it's current form? There's no disputing the revenue that come into a country through trophy hunting, and the expenses that a lot, not all, of us operators and professional hunters do towards species preservation, | |||
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No African experience here, but just an observation. From a true conservation stand point, management of any species has to be an across the board issue. Trying to manage a species by concentrating on only one segment of the population will ultimately cause problems within the population of the species. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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With out a doubt a major factor is "over hunting" I hunted chirisa Safari area in the late 1980's, we had a quota of 25 buffalo bulls. Fast forward to the late 1990's that quota had jumped to 70+ bulls. Why are we now surprised the numbers and quality of buffalo has dropped so drastically..., that's on buffalo which mature at around 6-8yrs old, so on trophy elephant which take in excess of 30yrs to be a grand old trophy bull it's no surprise either. National parks, as well as operators are to blame for the unsustainably high quotas in most areas. The original lease period of 5 yrs led to concession holders shooting as much as they could during their lease period as they were not gaurenteed to get the area back on expiration of the lease.. In typical African fashion, if the parks dept needed more money, they merely increased quotas... Without a moments thought to the effects on the conservation aspect these increases would have on the safari areas, the norm nowdays is to sacrifice conservation ethics for financial gain period. Gone are the days when hunters turned down species that were not considered mature trophies, and if one wasn't successful, next year one would try again, now it's all about money!! The areas quota is put on a spreadsheet and each species/quota contributes to the operators bottom line... more pressure is now also put on the professional hunters. Let's not also forget the accelerated loss of wildlife habitat, human encroachment in areas where wildlife once roamed freely. | |||
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I'd be cautious of broad sweeping statements about trophy quality and herd health across whole continents. No doubt there will be some places where trophy quality has taken a dive - because of over-hunting and poor management. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Without a doubt a major contributing factor, no point discussing that !!!! I recall the early years of Moyowosi in Tanzania, when the entire block was hunted as one unit with 4 lion on quota. The block was divided into two areas, both with 4 lion on quota. It was divided further and each of the three blocks were given 4 lion. So, from 4 to 12 !!!! We had herds numbering easily 800/1000 regularly living on the swamp flatlands, and dagga bulls in the 50" category, whilst not common, existed. I also recall early Matetsi days, having to hand in the lower jaw of all the species we hunted. This was for age analysis, and it was the ecologist's job to ascertain whether or not the quota's were correct or if younger trophies were being harvested then a cut in the quota was enforced. | |||
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Neil-ph... You are on the same page as us. No different to when areas in Zimbabwe became expensive to buy on public auction, and operators began to form syndicates to pool resources to buy areas, quotas began to increase to give each syndicate members a decent quota....not too mention the silent political partners who also wanted their share of the pie for facilitating quota increases, lease extensions etc... We doubt any parks ecologist has in the past decade collated any meaningful scientific data from sport hunted animals... Several of us also hunted various areas in Tanzania during the period 1995-2005, and saw first hand what you mentioned in your post above... | |||
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100% correct Neil! Trophy quality of sable in the Matetsi Blocks a good case in point I have seen the same happen in many areas that were hunted conservatively and then hunted hard, all over Southern Africa. Buffalo in particular have taken a hammering in many areas, Chirisa, Sengwe, Sengwa, Omay.... Where quotas are conservative and hunting is a true conservation tool the results speak for themselves . Many outfitters chase the dollar and I am a firm believer that increasing govt corruption and greed have contributed significantly to the overheads and financial pressure on outfitters | |||
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I would back that statement. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Yes, the hunting community needs to be VERY cautious in supporting the claim of hunting induced genetic selection. There are many factors at play determining physical expressions within wildlife. A burgeoning field of "genetic harm" research is spreading around the world, much of it following a new "Compassionate" wildlife management model that strives to exclude human interference and hunting. Anti-hunting organizations are loving the conclusions revealed in this field of study. Read Marco Festa-Bianchet's writing on his visions for wildlife management and Trophy Hunting. Exploitive Wildlife Management http://marco.recherche.usherbr...les/MFBChapter12.pdf From the book Ignoring Nature No More: The Case for Compassionate Conservation Chapter 9 starts on page 125 Evolutionary Sustainable Wildlife Management https://books.google.ca/books?...life%20model&f=false | |||
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Yes, they are trying this in Australia with kangaroos - believe it or not - claiming that the commercial harvest industry is affecting animal size. Utter nonsense of course that isn't supported by anything except anecdotal evidence (ie. bullshit). A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Neil, I have neither the breadth or depth of your experience, but intuitively, I agree with you. I blame no one in particular for this as the issue of over hunting or trophy hunting means different things to different people but would offer the following. Once groups like SCI or Texas Trophy Hunters started gaining members and "traction", the concepts of breeding to get grossly unnatural sized antlers on deer, elk, red deer and others did not exist. Then came the high fence concept that has spread to every continent and area. Then, the outdoor writers/hunters espouse 40" gemsbok, buffalo, big horn sheep, sable, whatever as being a "trophy" - hence every hunter is after something bigger than 40". Same goes for elk - if it is not 6x6 and over 300", you are a loser and poor hunter. So what is the average guy to do? Well, anything that is close to those magic numbers gets shot and in large numbers. I think we are losing ground on this entire issue due to our misguided or mis-educated focus on shooting the "old" and beyond breeding age animals. In reality, I think many of them breed longer and more often than we think (much like NBA players in the USA!). Sometimes our science on genetics and horn/antler growth is generated to be self serving. | |||
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ZWC, You are so correct! Sadly so...but correct. This is one of the reasons I jump on the bandwagon of dumping the SCI...as they promote the mentality as well. But for sure the vertical termites are mostly to blame. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Declaring a population wide genetic shift due to a generation or two of over harvest is undocumented territory. Please do not promote a short term reduction in available trophy quality as a hunting induced genetic selection. If trophy bulls return to the population in another ten years, will this be promoted as yet another genetic shift? | |||
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100% correct My feeling is that there is no longer the number of Old bulls available because they have been shot/poached/died due to drought. But it has nothing to do with genetics, maybe in 200 years time if herds were shot out to just a few remaining bulls for 10 years plus. But not taking 1% of your population. These statements are untrue and only serve to hurt hunting. If your 1 hunting block you are looking at has not produced trophies, its because it has been over hunted at some point and you are now forced to shoot younger bulls because thats all that is left. Give it a rest for 5 years and go look at the monster that come out of there. Prime example is Royal Kafues first few seasons. Just spectacular. One other fact to look at that is far more likely to blame than genetics is drought cycles. We have seen the drought averages stepping up year after year. If a Buffalo calf is not properly nourished in its first two years then its potential is capped to suit the conditions prevailing. That includes horn growth. A good example of this is the ridiculous horn sizes being produced through captive breeding. It is n longer special to have a bull hit 50". the genetic potential was always there, the nutrition just wasn't. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Exactly the kind of answers I'm looking for, thankyou. | |||
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100 % Saeed. For this reason I applaud the way the APNR manage their hunting through strict protocol. I finished up on a Buffalo hunt yesterday on my concession in the APNR. Over the span of the first 5 days we were constantly hunting multiple lone old Buffalo bulls and getting into and looking over Bull herds . We ended up shooting our Dagga Boy at 15 yards on the 5th morning after an interesting stalk - up close and personal. This is a true privilege in todays Africa. | |||
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That is great news Jan!! But let me ask you - how on earth did they manage to keep SCI away from the APNR?  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I am in no way qualified to comment on genetic changes but as a simple man I have seen with my own eyes what too much hunting pressure can do to the quality of trophies on a hunting concession. And also on the upside have seen how an area can bounce back with sound management practices in place. I recently heard of a private landowner that was offered a huge premium so that a client could shoot a species he had not originally intended to hunt. In the most polite way he was unwavering on the fact that his quota for this year had been filled. In the end the client and the PH came away with immense respect for the landowner and his principles, and they will be booking for a future hunt. With the knowledge that they will have a great hunt on an incredible property Jan I have had the privilege of hunting a few buffalo in the APNR; truly one of the greatest place to hunt an old bull outside of a herd! | |||
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SCI is only interested in inches. Not real trophy quality. Just like anything they do, so superficial and no substance  | |||
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| One of Us |
We have to start lobbying SCI to rethink their scoring methods, en masse. "First for Hunters" is contributing to the decline in trophy quality, whether they want to see it or not. As soon as a break away group establish a more credible scoring method, it will arm the anti's with a plethora of reasons to attack hunting again, in it's current form. Perhaps the time is right? | |||
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There is a breakaway group, its called DSC - why don't y'all adopt their scoring method? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The SCI scoring system will be used except for North America, where B and C gross score will be used to determine awards. The trophies must be scored prior to the competition deadline date. Scores and score sheets must be included in all entry forms for the trophy to be eligible for any award. Taken from DSC | |||
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DSC uses SCI scoring method, SCI score sheets and even has its own Trophy Competition?  What are they thinking??A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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The whole record book bullshit is what is the root cause of this. They should be abolished and it would help end some of this meaningless competition amongst hunters. And it gives the antis a free kick. Over hunting any concession will drive down trophy quality as well as the ravages of disease and habitat loss.......just look at the quality of Kudu coming out of Namibia.......... | |||
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IME - Most international hunters dont actually give a crap about record books mate. Their importance to hunters and participation in them by hunters is massively overstated. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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What would it be like if the determination of what is and is not a trophy was left up to the individual hunter, with the opinions and beliefs of everyone else being totally irrelevant? Unless evolution begins toning down the genes for competitiveness, things won't change. Modern humans are simply too competitive and enter every activity they get involved in with the idea of turning it into a competition. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I agree that the awards, pinnacles, record book levels, etc. need to be eliminated. They need to be eliminated, however, not because they are a material cause of the diminishment in trophy quality but because they represent hunting as something it should not be, a competition. I also do not believe that poaching is the cause of the diminishment in trophy quality. Let's face it poachers could care less if they shoot a trophy buffalo bull versus a cow, their interest is meat. I think we need to look in the mirror if we want to see the real reason behind the diminished number of trophy animals. I would concur with the comments above to the effect that the diminishment in trophy quality is due to two factors, game departments that are seeking to maximize revenues by setting quota levels too high and outfitters that have taken a short-term view and are seeking and obtaining quota levels that are too high in order to maximize their bottom lines. I have personally been told stories about efforts by outfitters to lower quotas to account for game population issues that were met with resistance from the game department or tribal councils because it would impact fixed quota revenues. I have also heard stories of outfitters lobbying for and securing increases in quota in situations where the game numbers did not support an increase. Mike | |||
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Good points, Mike.  | |||
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I agree Matt, but their very existence is a bad look for hunters....though as CHC states very accurately, man's competitiveness is very much in play in this too. | |||
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There is something to hunter induced evolution. Here are examples in PA: 1. Turkeys that come in silent. 2. Smaller bass per age 3. Rattlers that don't rattle 4. Non aggressive Black Bears from decades of killing off aggressive bears. One could say these things always occurred but there is definitely more of it. The fish study was per age examples and there was definitely a trend. Food for thought if nothing else, but it makes sense and I believe it. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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There are many reasons to target certain age, sex or "quality" animals - including population control and eliminating inferior genes. Until an age component gets factored into "trophy" consideration, however, width, mass, length and weight will prevail - which can be detrimental to overall population genetics if age is not considered. As much as I hate to admit it, many European hunting areas are probably more advanced on this stance and have focused more on the age component of trophy quality - taking an "old" specimen likely beyond prime breeding age and likely wise in terms of avoiding predators. Maybe someday we'll have an award for the best overall trophy which somehow factors in the experience, age, dimensions of the animal, and effort. Then again, perhaps this is too subjective and controversial. There are no easy answers, but an age component is definitely lacking. JEB Katy, TX Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking: That if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal's terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day - Robert Ruark DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Very good conversation. I want to learn more. LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Is there any evidence that these are genetic traits? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I haven't seen the existence of record books targeted by anti media - have you? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I believe the bass study found evidence of genetics. They specifically said that evolution was occurring over so many generations, the exact number of generations escapes me but it wasn't many. ETA: The Bass study showed that the bass were not growing large as an evolutionary trait, i.e. a survival tactic. One could surmise that it is just the same as the black bear deal, removing the big bass genes from the reproduction pool, but they did do this study recently. The bear thing is believed genetic, killing the agressives for years and years leaves only the more timid to reproduce, which is genetic. I am sure if they introduced some aggressive black bears from Alaska or Saskatchewan the aggressive factor would climb right up there! PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Another subject crossed my mind. Trees. In PA we use natural regeneration. Natural regeneration is a no brainer. The foresters will come in and selectively harvest trees to make room for saplings to grow. They will not cut the biggest, healthiest trees, as these are needed to produce big, healthy saplings. After a year or two they will go in and clear cut. The saplings would already be up and growing and can handle being driven over while clear cutting the trees. The saplings will recover and they are regenerated from the big, healthy trees. Science is wonderful at times, but we get to trying to manage mother nature too much at times. This has been a good topic for sure. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Perhaps because the Record Books do not hunt? A book is a book, and if ALL hunting ended today, the Record Books would still exist, but no one would ever be entering anything into them. If Hunting record books only recognized the species killed, very few people would participate in them. All a person has to do to understand that is look at what people will do or attempt to do, to get their name in the Guinness Book Of World Records. Record books of ANY kind bring out the greed/competitiveness of humans, and many of them will do whatever is necessary to get their name in a "Book", regardless the cost, the ethics involved and/or the legalities. Attacking a record book accomplishes nothing for anyone, because the book does not tell anyone to try and better the statistics by whatever means necessary. That is where the human part of the equation causes the problem. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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At last someone has explained my extraordinary reproductive success! Thanks for nothing!  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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