quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
At last someone has explained my extraordinary reproductive success! Thanks for nothing!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can tell you that Roy Vincent has been following this policy for many years.

Hunting with him, we always picked an old bull, no matter what his horns look like, even when we could see bigger, younger bulls around.

In fact, we would pick anything which is out of the ordinary - like ones with broken horns, deformed horns or wounded.

And his son Alan is following in his footsteps too.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can tell you that Roy Vincent has been following this policy for many years.

Hunting with him, we always picked an old bull, no matter what his horns look like, even when we could see bigger, younger bulls around.

In fact, we would pick anything which is out of the ordinary - like ones with broken horns, deformed horns or wounded.

And his son Alan is following in his footsteps too.

But you have still noticed a serious decline, as you stated earlier?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can tell you that Roy Vincent has been following this policy for many years.

Hunting with him, we always picked an old bull, no matter what his horns look like, even when we could see bigger, younger bulls around.

In fact, we would pick anything which is out of the ordinary - like ones with broken horns, deformed horns or wounded.

And his son Alan is following in his footsteps too.

But you have still noticed a serious decline, as you stated earlier?

Yes, there is a definite decline in number of old trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I talked with a friend about the Bass study. He said he thought they based it on 5 generations and that it was thought to be an Adaptation of the species to survive.

quote:

Very good conversation.I want to learn more.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can tell you that Roy Vincent has been following this policy for many years.

Hunting with him, we always picked an old bull, no matter what his horns look like, even when we could see bigger, younger bulls around.

In fact, we would pick anything which is out of the ordinary - like ones with broken horns, deformed horns or wounded.

And his son Alan is following in his footsteps too.

But you have still noticed a serious decline, as you stated earlier?

Yes, there is a definite decline in number of old trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:
Fairgame,

How did you determine that this Sable's impressive horn growth is due to genetics?

This claim of superior genetics in individual animals is often made, but usually without any supporting evidence. And this is where the "genetic selection" theories often go awry, potentially to the detriment of future hunting management strategies.

There are Many other factors that can result in variations of individual animals horn growth. Maternal health, fetus health, population densities, habitat qualities, weather, climate, individual animal vigor and personality (timid or aggressive, bold or shy), which can result in varying energy expenditures which can effect resources directed to horn growth....

This particular animal my have exceptional horn growth simply because it was born from a mother in exceptional health and with subsequent good access to nutrition and few stressors. An animal with the exact same genetics born from a mother in poor health, in a poor environment with many stressors would likely have proportionately below average horns....

An anecdotal example. Alberta, Canada recently produced the new world record Bighorn Sheep. This ram was of known lineage, and his male siblings, while of solid horn expression, did not match the growth of this ram. What made the difference? Same parents, same environment and resources. Well, this ram was lazy and not a fighter. He maintained a very small home range and NEVER fought during the breeding season. I suggest that the reason this ram grew exceptional horns compared to his compatriots was his lazy, lackadaisical lifestyle. Instead of being the usual actively roaming and head butting ram, he just laid around and grew big horns.


I suggest we need to learn to view these animals as just healthy, a product of a healthy population and environment, as opposed to seeing a "genetically superior" individual.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Well said that man.

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I can tell you that Roy Vincent has been following this policy for many years.

Hunting with him, we always picked an old bull, no matter what his horns look like, even when we could see bigger, younger bulls around.

In fact, we would pick anything which is out of the ordinary - like ones with broken horns, deformed horns or wounded.

And his son Alan is following in his footsteps too.

But you have still noticed a serious decline, as you stated earlier?

Yes, there is a definite decline in number of old trophies.

I Cant agree. In this Blocks where i Hunt in the Selous roughly 1000000 acres are Plenty of old Daggga Boys past there Prime. But definetly Not all Blocks have this Quality and Management. Just my 2 Cents...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:
The whole record book bullshit is what is the root cause of this. They should be abolished and it would help end some of this meaningless competition amongst hunters.

And it gives the antis a free kick.

Over hunting any concession will drive down trophy quality as well as the ravages of disease and habitat loss.......just look at the quality of Kudu coming out of Namibia..........

IME - Most international hunters dont actually give a crap about record books mate. Their importance to hunters and participation in them by hunters is massively overstated.

I agree Matt, but their very existence is a bad look for hunters....though as CHC states very accurately, man's competitiveness is very much in play in this too.

I haven't seen the existence of record books targeted by anti media - have you?

quote:

And if they generally were aware of the record books they would be even more disgusted

quote:

Originally posted by Blair 338RUM:

Why do you think trophy hunting gets a bad rap by the general public?

And if they generally were aware of the record books they would be even more disgusted....so if the anti hunting media go to work on this, it will be a VERY bad look for hunters.

quote:

Neil
Without picking a fight I believe you need to speak to a scientist and make sure you understand how the words you are using are going to be slung around by the anti hunters when they get hold of your "research"I come from an Agricultural background, but the little I know of genetics says that what you are offering up is simply not possible. We simply dont shoot enough as hunters to alter the genetic composition of anything, most certainly not on a continent wide basis.My point is, there is enough negativity out there as it is not to need any being produced from within our ranks.If you want to test your genetics theory, then leave a concession to stand for 10 years and then go back and measure its results vs a concession that has been actively hunted.My feeling is that you will see no difference on animals of the same age. YOu will however have the impression that there are vastly better trophies though due to the average age of the animals.Most bulls are no longer breeding by the time they pass 40" and that means they have long since delivered their genetic load by the time they are shot.If anything the "genetic shift" would be far more likely to happen because bulls that have lager bodies and smaller horns are dominating bulls that have larger horns and smaller bodies and as such are out breeding them.Taking out 2% of a population simply cannot cause genetic shft, certainly not in 200 years, maybe not even in 2000 years.Either way, I just want us to take responsibility for what we post on the net, as we are being watched on this very site, as we type, each and every day.
regardsIan

quote:

All the antis have to do to get ammunition against us is to read these AR pages.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

All the antis have to do to get ammunition against us is to read these AR pages.

That argument has been used since before I joined AR almost 10 years ago.

I have also seen it used on every hunting forum I have been on or visited.

Point some hunters do not understand or do not want to understand, is that anti's do not need ammunition, that want hunting stopped, Period.

It would not matter if there were no record books and all hunting, world wide was conducted the way it is in various European countries, based on actual management practices.

Just one question Mr. Graham, do you personally envision a time in the future where hunters as a group will stop attacking each other over differences in beliefs about hunting and how it should be conducted?

quote:

Originally posted by walking buffalo:
Fairgame,

How did you determine that this Sable's impressive horn growth is due to genetics?

This claim of superior genetics in individual animals is often made, but usually without any supporting evidence. And this is where the "genetic selection" theories often go awry, potentially to the detriment of future hunting management strategies.

There are Many other factors that can result in variations of individual animals horn growth. Maternal health, fetus health, population densities, habitat qualities, weather, climate, individual animal vigor and personality (timid or aggressive, bold or shy), which can result in varying energy expenditures which can effect resources directed to horn growth....

This particular animal my have exceptional horn growth simply because it was born from a mother in exceptional health and with subsequent good access to nutrition and few stressors. An animal with the exact same genetics born from a mother in poor health, in a poor environment with many stressors would likely have proportionately below average horns....

An anecdotal example. Alberta, Canada recently produced the new world record Bighorn Sheep. This ram was of known lineage, and his male siblings, while of solid horn expression, did not match the growth of this ram. What made the difference? Same parents, same environment and resources. Well, this ram was lazy and not a fighter. He maintained a very small home range and NEVER fought during the breeding season. I suggest that the reason this ram grew exceptional horns compared to his compatriots was his lazy, lackadaisical lifestyle. Instead of being the usual actively roaming and head butting ram, he just laid around and grew big horns.


I suggest we need to learn to view these animals as just healthy, a product of a healthy population and environment, as opposed to seeing a "genetically superior" individual.

quote:

posted 23 September 2015 09:15 Hide Post

quote:
Neil
Without picking a fight I believe you need to speak to a scientist and make sure you understand how the words you are using are going to be slung around by the anti hunters when they get hold of your "research"I come from an Agricultural background, but the little I know of genetics says that what you are offering up is simply not possible. We simply dont shoot enough as hunters to alter the genetic composition of anything, most certainly not on a continent wide basis.My point is, there is enough negativity out there as it is not to need any being produced from within our ranks.If you want to test your genetics theory, then leave a concession to stand for 10 years and then go back and measure its results vs a concession that has been actively hunted.My feeling is that you will see no difference on animals of the same age. YOu will however have the impression that there are vastly better trophies though due to the average age of the animals.Most bulls are no longer breeding by the time they pass 40" and that means they have long since delivered their genetic load by the time they are shot.If anything the "genetic shift" would be far more likely to happen because bulls that have lager bodies and smaller horns are dominating bulls that have larger horns and smaller bodies and as such are out breeding them.Taking out 2% of a population simply cannot cause genetic shft, certainly not in 200 years, maybe not even in 2000 years.Either way, I just want us to take responsibility for what we post on the net, as we are being watched on this very site, as we type, each and every day.
regardsIan



I wouldn't dream of not discussing the theory with a competent scientist and follow specific research guidelines, if there are any in this regard. Personally it's going to be real difficult I think to establish any worthwhile system, and it will certainly take in a good number of years worth of data, it would have to.

We're all on the same page about not tarnishing our sport or bringing any further damage to our reputation, in all my years I have seen the tremendous good that hunting has done with respect to conservation and community upliftment, let's further that good if we can.

quote:

Mr Graham is my Dad.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

No I don't believe in such a Utopia - but I don't think the war against each other should be actively encouraged, like it is on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

No I don't believe in such a Utopia - but I don't think the war against each other should be actively encouraged, like it is on AR.

Beyond being respectful, particularly when it comes to hunt reports, I think the notion that hunters ought to avoid discussing and arguing about hunting issues because the anti-hunting groups will use that information against them is absurd to be frank. Whether it is how we address the many failings of SCI, the pernicious impact records and awards can have on the image of the sport, the taking of immature animals, how some television shows are a poor representation of the sport, etc., if we do not talk about and debate those issues among ourselves how we can ever address the underlying problems facing the sport? Besides the anti-hunting groups seem to be doing a dang good job of kicking our butts already, some back and forth on an internet blog is not going to make or break their efforts. To me, a frank discussion of the issues undermining our sporting heritage is a far better use of computer bytes in terms of the future of the sport than discussing the best socks to wear on safari, what gum to chew while tracking and some of the other things that end up being discussed.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You really assign far too much importance to what is discussed on this site. Perhaps if no one posted, there would never be any bad information, nothing to foment or incite the anti-hunters, no rants or trolls, no bruised egos, etc. . . . perhaps you would be prepared to take the lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You really assign far too much importance to what is discussed on this site. Perhaps if no one posted, there would never be any bad information, nothing to foment or incite the anti-hunters, no rants or trolls, no bruised egos, etc. . . . perhaps you would be prepared to take the lead.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
You really assign far too much importance to what is discussed on this site. Perhaps if no one posted, there would never be any bad information, nothing to foment or incite the anti-hunters, no rants or trolls, no bruised egos, etc. . . . perhaps you would be prepared to take the lead.

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:
There are many reasons to target certain age, sex or "quality" animals - including population control and eliminating inferior genes. Until an age component gets factored into "trophy" consideration, however, width, mass, length and weight will prevail - which can be detrimental to overall population genetics if age is not considered.

As much as I hate to admit it, many European hunting areas are probably more advanced on this stance and have focused more on the age component of trophy quality - taking an "old" specimen likely beyond prime breeding age and likely wise in terms of avoiding predators.

Maybe someday we'll have an award for the best overall trophy which somehow factors in the experience, age, dimensions of the animal, and effort. Then again, perhaps this is too subjective and controversial.

There are no easy answers, but an age component is definitely lacking.