I used the 416 Rem to good effect recently in RSA. A 375 would probably have been as effective, but the 416 is what I had.

The nice thing about a medium bore on plains game is that you do not need a perfect presentation to take the shot with confidence.

The kudu and wildebeast I shot at quartering angles, with both animals moving away. I would have tried neither shot with a 30-06, and I would have hesitated with a 338Win. That hesitation would have cost me both shots, and the result would have been less days available for tracking eland, which was the highlight of the trip.

I whacked the gemsbok, wildebeast and zebra right at dark, and I would not have done that (except with perfect presentations) with a 338 either. All shots were through-and-through, except on the eland.

As we were running up to the zebra, MV (the PH) starting laughing at something the tracker said. He translated it for me as "That 416 takes no shit!"

The game density is high in Africa, but it is still hunting, not just shooting. Given the limited time on most safaris, "Use enough gun" takes on a double meaning. I will probably use the 416 on any trip that includes animals bigger than deer.

Don

Nickudu,

From your posting:

I don't see the ULTRA as a lasting threat to the "standard" .416 Remington, at least not from a dangerous game perspective.

Nick,

You have a 505 Gibbs. Do you think that could have been put together if the only people using 505s were shooting elephants? Why did you not have a 500 A2 made

The question put forward in this topic was "is the 416 Remington dying"

Now a question for you Nick. If you were given a rifle from H&H, Purdey or whoever; Would your choice of calibers include 416 Remington?

The Remington agents in Australia say the 416 is discontinued.

Winchester Australia does not bring in 416 Remingtons as they bring in the CZ 550s in 416 Rigby.

Mike

[ 06-19-2002, 15:27: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I'd be really stunned if this Rem .416 was discontinued. And my only experience is from what I see at the ranges I shoot at.

From what Ive seen , and felt , the .416 is the perfect big bore for the average shooter to learn to shoot for DG, like me. Yeah Im a pretty big,strong guy, and recoil is pretty irrelevant to me, but I notice a noticeable difference between the .416 and the .458's.

The .416 is..........well.......perfect! I realize there are guys here who could write books about the various DGR's and cartridges and can shoot them all easily. But for the average guy who wants to go to Africa for Buff or other DG ? The .416 is perfect, just perfect.

I keep meeting the same guy at the range, with the same Rem. .416Rem, and he keeps letting me shoot it, "as I do my rifles for him", and I really , really like this caliber and the 400 grn bullets it launches. I think a guy who has no problem with the various med magnums, like the .300's and .338s, will have no problem learning to shoot the .416 Rem. The true big bores , on the other hand, are different storys. At least to me they are.

Personaly I thought the .416 was takeing over the Med/Big bore market. I was considering rechambering my M-70 .375 to .416 Rem but I decided to take the advise of the Nimrods here whom said I shouldnt. This M-70 of mine shoots to well and is just to perfect to mess with.

Maybe in a year or two I'll get another LH M-70 and do it in .404 or .416Rem. Maybe by then to a .458Lott....................J

[ 06-19-2002, 16:15: Message edited by: JHook ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike375:
[QB]Nickudu,

"You have a 505 Gibbs. Do you think that could have been put together if the only people using 505s were shooting elephants?"

I'm not sure I follow, Mike (?)

"Why did you not have a 500 A2 made?"

I knew I wanted a certain speed with 570/600 grain bullets and I wanted it with the lowest possible pressure. Also, I have always fancied the Gibbs casing and have wanted a rifle so chambered, ever since I can remember.

"If you were given a rifle from H&H, Purdey or whoever; Would your choice of calibers include 416 Remington?"

No, it would not, but only due to collectors value considerations. I'd more likely ask for a "classic caliber", such as the .404 and that would become my staple caliber as I got on in years.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Don G:

"The nice thing about a medium bore on plains game is that you do not need a perfect presentation to take the shot with confidence".

Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!

Nick,

There is a gathering interest in 500 J and 505 G. This won't be because of elephant hunting.

I believe that this interest in big bores created an "environment" whereby you felt comfortable to put a 505 together.

The 416 Remington simply does not have it.

For example, the Ruger Express is now coming in 458 Lott. No 416 Remington. The CZ 550, no 416 Remington but 416 Rigby.

I think if we had a 416 Rem Ultra and Winchester and CZ chambered it, then it would take off, within the limitations that exist in the Big Bore market.

In the meantime, the 375 Ultra will take all the sales Remington gets in the "big bang" area.

The 416 Remington will go down the same road as the 8 mm Remington.

Mike

Mike-
I think the reason for Ruger and CZ chambering their express rifles in the 416 Rigby is simply because their actions are large enough to accomodate the "classic" cartridge. The 375 is also a "classic" and therby gets chambered as well. I cannot explain Ruger's pass on chambering the Remington, while going forward to the 458 Lott.
I doubt the 375 Ultra will sell any better than their 416Rem has, if as well. It has a lot harder row to hoe in competition with the 375H&H than does the 416 in going against the Rigby, this due to the large action necessity of the Rigby. I would also doubt very much that a 416Ultra would fare any better than their existing 416. THE CLASSIC 416 is a RIGBY. The PRACTICAL 416 is a REMINGTON.

Mike - I do not believe there is a market for the .416 Ultra. The average bear in the woods already complines that the .416 is too much recoil and too much gun for non-African hunting. This is why the .416 died in the first place and why the .375 is so popular. Most folks just don�t like the step up in recoil from the .375.

The .416 Ultra is a magnitude higher in the recoil department over the .416Rem. Do we really need a 400gr bullet at 2700+fps? This load generates as much recoil energy (80+ft/lbs) as a .450 Dakota or a .460 Weatherby.

Even though the .416Rem is no longer commercially produced, there will still be plenty of demand for the cartridge. The .416 is simply too good of a performer in the field to be ignored. Reamers and brass will be available for those who what to own this caliber.

What I do find interesting is many are acting as if the commercial death of the .416Rem is new news. The .416 has been out of favor with Remington for over a decade. Folks didn�t buy it, so they dropped it. We are going to see more cartridges on the cutting board as sales drop off. I predict that several of the short mags and ultra mags will also be cut from the production list. Pigs die and cows get milked...

[ 06-19-2002, 18:24: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

John,

The 458 Lott is a "45".

Mike

I think Ruger has made a smart move chambering the .458 lott. It I think will be a "cow.... "

But you could still do a lott on a 550 and be in front cash wise, that is the only thing going against Ruger.

There must only be a tiny market for the Lott. I doubt Ruger will sell that many after the first year of introduction.

The market for a 416 Ultra would seem to be almost non-existent. Way too much recoil for the results it is capable of in the field.

Will

The 416 Remington will never die, nor fade away. It is just experiencing the flatulence of bean counters. The fumes will soon clear. Business as usual, as others have said.

I like all the 416's from the Taylor to the Rigby, and I own, load for, and shoot six different rifles in four different cartridges of the .416" bore.

The Remington bean counters got gas over the proliferation of the truly great 416 Rigby rifles and ammo easily obtainable in the last decade.

The 416 RUM will never fly because it is too much like the 416 Rigby, only second best in every way, and a negligible improvement over the 416 Remington anyway. The 416 RUM would be totally redundant and outclassed on all sides by the Rigby and Remington 416's.

I beg to differ on the horrendous recoil the 416 RUM would have. Even the 416 Rigby is gentle, and little different from the 416 Remington.

Yep, 416 rules. It is a 375 and then some, that "some" is 0.041", not a lot, but enough to make some difference.

/

Alf,
I would be happy to send you all the loaded factory 416 rem Mag you wish, I have it in stock today and Fed too.
Remington may have dropped the 416 but lets face it...it was a lead sled. Weight was way to much and most of my customers that had one had me flute the bbl. to get the weight out of it which was usually 10 to 11 ozs.
Next...for all the guys that holler you gotta have control feed for a dangerous game rifle...Remington did not have it...Winchester does and it is Winchester and Dakota that my customers buy. I have had nobody ask about the Rem 700 in 416 Rem for several years now and I only know one guy that bought one in the last two years...it was too good a deal for him to pass up money wise. He is a young man, inexperienced hunter going on his first safari.
Now...I sell Winchester 70's in 416 Rem Mag month after month. I have 4 in inventory today.
To think that something that works this well is going away is bull.
The Ultra toys...I have sold two in 300 and one in 375 since they came out. Talk about dead!
Now, somebody is worried about the 416 Ultra...ho, ho...it will be as big a seller as the 416 Wby. Mag., something I have yet to sell the first of.
You could plant tomatoes on top of my 300 Ultra ammo due to the dust. The same for 30/378 and its kin.
I am on the second case of 416 Rem Mag ammo for the year along with many boxes of the Fed. stuff.
For something that is dead or dying I sure am eating well off of its sales!

Pity that Winchester doesnt do a bit more for leftys. If they can sell the .375 LH's as fast as they can make them I bet they can make some money with a .416 chambering or .458.

They dont exactly have a lot of competition for affordable CRF LH med Big-Bores and Big-Bores. A certain percentage of the population will always be lefty, and there are those of us with crossways brains that left us with strong left eyes while leaveing us right handed.

Altogether this is what ? 20% to 30% of the population ? Not a small size big bore market where there is no CRF competition.

Well...........Im whining again, the LH'd curse.................J

ALF,
You ought to fly up to Anchorage with the family for a break. While they are shopping or recreating you can hit the gun shops. Mountain View Sports is a classy store with lots of good books and lots of 416 Remington brass sitting on the shelves, last time I was there. Great Northern Guns is the shop with the redneck atmosphere and the best guns on hand. There is also an antique shop with a gun room called "The Roosevelt Room" or some such, displaying old doubles, etc. You could find the Roosevelt Room with a web search, I'll bet.

My current supply of new 416 Remington brass is only a count of 100 pieces.

[ 06-20-2002, 11:02: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

JHook,
I am as right handed and right eyed as can be but...you have a very legit bitch! Why in hell if you already have the LH action can't you run two more caliber of bbls?

Harry it would be one thing if it wasnt a commerically, or production , viable project. But they have the tooling, the barrels and actions, theyd sell those .416, .458, and maybe every few years a more historic Big-Bore chambering, like hot cakes.

Certainly a run of 2,000 to 5,000 a year would fly worldwide. I'd write a letter but the last one I wrote to Win. never got returned.

Oh, BTW, that .375 I bought from you shoots so well there is simply no way Im going to rechamber or mess with it in anyway............J

DaggaRon:

Thre is a 25% increase in recoil in going from 2400 fps to 2700 fps.

If you can't tell any difference you must be self-prescribing yourself some of the good stuff

Will

I have not noticed a shortage of 416 Rem brass in the US...It is readily available through several sources...I have not purchased any in several months as I bought about 4 cases of it here while back and sold most of it..I may still have a 1000 cases left..It is out there if you shop around.

Right on Harry,
Never thought the Rem 700 was a DGR. OK, for plains game but I want crf for the big stuff with teeth, claws, and horns. Actually have a custom shop Rem 700 .375 which is super accurate, but doesn't qualify as a DGR. My .416 is a rem in Win M70 and a sweet gun it is.
The .416 Rigby is a nostalgic round requiring a longer action and I want one of those someday too.
If I recall the std M70 action would not accommodate a .416 Rigby.
Remington's marketing department must be on drugs if they think the ultra's will take market from some of the standard chamberings, those will be some of the real dinasaur's instead.

pm

Will,
No sane person would push a 400 grain bullet to 2700 fps in a 416 RUM, even if it could possibly be done.

Rummytoon has a sordid history of "new, big deal" introductions followed shortly afterward by the complete collapse of support of those hunters/shooters who allowed themselves to be conned into purchase of the newest "wonder toy" from the ad council. Witness my two beloved 5mm rimfire rifles that have been unshot since my last batch of "ole Western Scrounger" procured ammo ran out. Then there is the sad lot of the .350 Rem Mag, diserted before its prime, or the 6.5 Rem mag, what could have been a jim dandy light plains game cartridge, abandoned. This seems to be a problem that is widespread in our tim,es, products and companys controlled by MBA types, instead of by those who are in a SPECIFIC business because that ond only that business is their life. The same is true in the auto industry, now you can have any version of the melted jellybean, wrong wheel driven, underpowered, ricer wannabe, you can even get one with neon lights in the running gear!!!!!!!!

I have not even seen a new rem .17 rimfire yet, but it will be around for just long enough to leave a lot of shooters with rifles for which there is no ammo. Another problem that Remington MAY be having is quality control on the temper of its brass, this has happened repeatedly over the last several years, leaving a shortage of brass for my beloved .35 rem.

Brass for the .35 Rem. is still advertised as being available.

The marketing guys have to bring new stuff out or there are few sales. Fact of life.

Will

Will,
I'm still waiting for some 5MM and its been about 20 years now..Could you tell me when Rem is going to make a run of them???