Hi All!
When looking for reloading components before a rifle purchase, I noticed that the 416 Rem was not as easy to find components (especially brass)as it has been.

Just a few days ago, Sako put up their new site http://www.sako.fi
and guess what, yes the 416 Rem is no longer listed.

Now to my questions to this forum.

Am I right in my observations?

If so, is there a real hunting / Shooting reason for the faling popularity of th 416 Rem caliber?

Regards/

Softlead,

I think it has always been very limited as shown by the fact that in non premium bullets you can only get a 350 grain Speer and 400 grain Hornady.

My strong suspicians are that by far and away the majority of calibers over 338 do not get to Africa and even the ones that get to Africa will spend most of their time being shot at rocks, deer and whatever else and that is surely real Hornady territory.

In addition I think in 416 bore size the CZ 416 Rigby is cleaning up.

Also, many people would probably be waiting for the 416 Ultra even though it will probably not arrive. For the "bang for your buck" area, surely the 375 Remington Ultra is also taking many potential 416 Remington buyers. The 458 Lott must be another one as well, particularly with all those 45/70 bullets being available.

The 416 Remington is probably chosen by those who will hunt dangerous game only with the caliber and they want CRF and that would let the Sako out of the picture.

Mike

[ 06-14-2002, 13:42: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I'm not a marketing guy, but what Sako does is probably for the most part irrelevant.

You can buy 416 Rem brass from several places and it's alot cheaper than Rigby brass. Unless you are shooting rocks, as Mike says, buy 500 cases, which should last most of a lifetime. As long as Hornady keeps making bullets, it cheap rock shooting.

Will

CZ must be doing well though, blokes like mysely who will never be able to afford to go to Africa can at least have an African Caliber at a good price in there .416 Rigby.

I don't know this to be true, by my suspicion has been that Remington is trying to kill this cartridge off. First, the 400 gr. solid (Barnes) factory load was eliminated as was the 350 gr. soft point (Swift A-Frame), and more recently new Remington brass became almost unavailable. But then maybe the .416 Remington and the ammunition and components for it isn't in as much demand as I thought. At least Federal offers solid and softpoint ammo in .416 Remington, which is quite possibly even better than Remington's product.

Even so, I have a very nice custom .416 Remington that I have grown to treasure, and I'm not really worried about feeding it. Someone will always offer new brass for this cartridge, even if only in small lots, so I think the cartridge will stay alive for the forseeable future. After all, if .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby shooters can find ammo and cases, .416 Remington owners are likely to remain at least as secure in their investment as well.

AD

I just got into the .416 caliber with a Winchester Model 70 Express. I researched for two years the difference between the Rigby, which was my first choice. I talked to several gun builders and action suppliers, as well as barrel makers. I was told the .416 Rem outnumbers the Rigby by 10 to l in Africa and is coming on stronger every year. The ammo could be found over there if need be. North Fork just started producing the 370 gr. bullet that shoots extremely well in my rifle, I also shoot the Hornady 400 gr. The Rigby can be loaded at more speed, however the outfitters and guides told me it was not necessary, that the Remington speeds were sufficient. My impression is the .416 Remington is increasing greatly in usage and will continue to do so, even in Alaska for the Big Bears. Good shooting.

[ 06-14-2002, 23:27: Message edited by: phurley ]

Allen,

With respect, I think your views on calibes like the 416 Remington are as a user of the caliber for its intended purpose and undoubtedly it is superb for that purpose. However as a market that consumes factory rifles, brass and bullets, it is small.

I think PC is a typical of at least one reason that the 416 does not go well. The 416 Rigby might not have the Hornadies etc. of the 375, but it has a pizzaz factor far above the 416 Remington. As John S said to me once, the 416 Remington is a big game hunter's caliber.

This site is actually a reasonable indicator. Go to the Big Bore forum and the 416 Remington will be hardly there. It will be all 375, 416 Rigby and then onto the big 45s plus. But on the Africa forum the 416 Remington is well represented. I believe Remington saw the success the 458 had and thought it would go well. But the 458 had the "45 caliber" and the Model 70 rifle. By the way, have you noticed that there are virtually no Rem 700 416 Remingtons on the forum.

Mike

Mike, as I indicated, perhaps there isn't as much demand for this cartridge as I thought in the first place. I think, over-all, the demand for over-.40 caliber, "express"-type rifles is comparatively small. The guys who use them and like them love to talk about them, but in the grand scheme of things, all of this enthusiasm and solid use doesn't match the scale of most other classes of rifle cartridges.

I have to trust what Pat says about the use and reputation of the .416 Remington in Africa, as well as in Alaska for coastal bears. I've never met a PH or guide in either one of those places who didn't wax ecstatic on the cartridge. You don't hear of too many hunters who've actually used in on game who put it down, either. But even so, the .416 Remington and its ilk surely represents small-scale useage. If that wasn't so, why did Remington reduce their factory load offerings by two-thirds, and currently offer brass but infrequently? Lots of factors could come into play here, but in general products that sell well in and in fair volumn are seldom discontinued.

When Winchester first offered the .458 Win. Mag. back in 1956, they expected much greater demand than was actually realized. In fact, on most (if not all) pre-64 Model 70 actions that were utilized for short-magnums such as the .264 Win. or .338 Winchester, you'll see "458" stamped on the bottom of the receiver, right behind the recoil lug. These actions were originally built with the intent of making .458s, but when the anticipated sales didn't materialize, these actions ended up being used for .338s and so forth. Many of these actions remained in inventory for several years before they were ever used to complete a rifle. It's not at all unusual to find .338s that were built in 1960, for example, that are built on actions produced in 1956!

So I think you're fundamentally right.......

AD

Right or wrong there will always be brass available according to Remington, they just run it off in lots as it is a slow seller like all big bore cases..It is in production again and available...

You can always make cases from 300 H&H, 375 H&H and 8 MM Rem etc. etc. I have about 1000 new brass so I feel secure. the new ultra mag 416 is supposedly able to clean up a 416 Rem chamber?? or so I have been told.

All that said, I like the 416 Rem much better than the 416 Rigby because I can use the smaller 375 lenth action and have a trimmer, slimmer and lighter gun...If I want that huge action then I want it in a REAL gun like a 505, 460 or something of that ilk...

And if I want a little nostalgia, (the whole thing behind the Rigby is created nostalgia not use in Africa) then I will use my 404 Jefferys, the real Africans rifle, albiet not pumped up by some American literary geniouses. Now that ought to stir some of the rank and file

I thinkd the popularity of the .416 Remington is being hampered by the lack of factory CRF rifles chambered for it. As far as I know, Winchester is the only one, and quality control rumors are discouraging sales.
If Ruger, CZ or Brno would chamber it, I would own one.

Leave it to Remington to introduce a cartridge and then abandon it due to less than spectacular sales. (watch out RUM and short magnums) As Ray pointed out, the .416Rem is a big bore and many just don�t like the recoil of the gun. This is the primary reason why most settle on the .375. Ray�s .404J and the .416 (Rem, Rigby, and Dakota) are in a class well above the .375s and the .458WinMag in field performance on big game. It is a limited audience for sure, but you cannot deny that the .416 and the .404 will be with us for eternity.

If you follow Will�s advice and purchase 500 cases, you, your children, and your grandchildren will be shooting your .416 well into the next century. This is enough brass for 7 to 10 thousand reloads, however, you won�t be worrying about the availability of brass ever again. Look at loading the Woodleigh Weldcores and Solids for field use. They preform flawlessly.

I believe the 416 Rem is fairly alive and well throughout the world. As far as a mid-bore express-chambering, it is one of the finest, giving shooters who can handle the recoil a round that with 300-350gr bullets offers similar trajectory as a 30-06 will with 180 grain bullet. This makes it quite useful on very large and distant plains game if one can tolerate the recoil.

With 400 grain projectiles, the 416 Rem is truely a duel purpose cartridge lending itself well to cleanly downing DG. I feel that any .416 is one of the most useful calibers in the world, offering flat trajectories that most .458 can't because of their heavier bullet usage. The hunter who chooses a .416 (Taylor, Rem, Rigby, Wby) has ample power to cleanly kill big tough game animals. Even the short Taylor propels 400 grain bullets at 2300 fps.

The Rigby's popularity, as I see it, is based on the traditionalists view. Thats what Ruger and BRNO (602 Action and makers of the CZ rifle) are banking on. While the 416 Rigby has a tremendous resevoir for powder, loaded hot with its bulk hull, it is prone to extraction problems in equatorial hot lands. Keeping it at 2370-2400 fps with 400 grain loads guarantees smooth cycling.

If it were me deciding on the 416 Rem or Rigby, I would choose the Remington simply beacause typically 5 rounds can be housed instead of 3 in most bolt setups. I would not discount building a short fast pointing 416 Taylor bolt rifle w/22 inch barrel as it would also be most useful.

By the way, Win, Rem, and Sako all support the 416 Rem. In fact, I do believe Sako modified their 75 Action for their new Sako Safari rifle. They cut the bolt face clean smooth and threw a claw extractor onto a three lug luck up to produce a CRF Sako. Cost was not released in the article. It is a fine looking rifle, probably in the $3K market. At press time it was listed as chambered for 375 H&H, 416 Rem, and 458 Win.

I looked at their site and surprised it did not show up. This new CRF Model appeared in a magazine article around 5 months ago.

rossi

Hi
Thank for your comments. As for the Sako Safari rifle, here is a quote from their site:

The 80th anniversary of Sako inspired our gunsmiths to create a strictly Limited Edition of Sako Safari 80th Anniversary rifle. Edition consists of 80 custom rifles, each numbered and individually manufactured from carefully chosen quality materials. The hand engraved floorplate and the possibility to engrave a personal symbol in the pistol grip�s silver plaque further individualize each rifle.The chosen caliber of .375 H&H Mag offers perhaps the most versatile hunting power anywhere in the world. The massive Sako 75 No. V Magnum action provides reliability and safety in all hunting situations.

I think that you must forget any price under 10.000 US dollars. Sorry, I belive thats the thruth about the Sako Safari rifle as seen in some magazines.

Take care/

The reason I bought two 416 Rem Mod. 70's was that I could get the weight down (8.3 lbs) and might convince my son to shoot one if I loaded them down to 2200 fps with the 400 gr. bullets. It seems to have worked, as I would just as soon have him shoot buff with a 400 gr. bullet rather than a 300 gr. 375.

Will

Softlead,

You may be right, however the article listed this model in the three chamberings I mentioned along with it tested in Africa by the two Authors of the article. they explicitly said it was to be a mass production CRF Sako rifle.

Take Care,
rossi

The news of the death of the 416 Rem Mag is greatly exaggerated...to borrow a phrase (modified ) from Twain.
I sell fireams for a living and my passion is big bore rifles. I sell now and always have..more 416 Rem Mags. than Rigby or even if you add 375 H&H sales and 458 Win Mag sales together.
I don't care what CZ does but...if they would chamber the Rem Mag as many of us dealer have asked them to do they might be surprised as to the number sold.
I find the CZ buyer different from many others. I just bought a CZ 550 American for my son in caliber 9.3 x 62. I got good value for my money and I think that is the main reasoning for CZ sales. Had another manuf. offered the 9.3 here in the US I might have considered them instead.
The CZ is a damn long way from my Dakota Arms Safari 416 Rem Mag but then so is the price.
I can not recall selling a 458 in the last couple of years that was not rechamebered into a 40 something or a 458 Lott...with Lott the leader in the re chamber dept.
Some of you folks keep trying to tell us the Rem Mag is dead. Bull Hockey...not in your lifetime nor mine.
Some of you think if you can't find brass in every store the caliber is just off the market for sure. Bull Hockey again...the brass has always been available from somewhere or somebody. It might not have the Rem. logo on the headstamp but it was available.
Ever hear of buying factory ammo and then reloading that brass?
Rem Mag is avaiable today from both Federal and Remington and sits on my self now. The fact that the various grain wt. loadings are gone means to me that the 400 is the one that works to start with.
Now...just how many times do you need a 40 and up caliber rifle? I have yet to buy a pre owned one shot out. I have only needed mine on one of my safaris to date. Be it Alaska or Africa..there are only so many large animals that you need one for. In Africa we shot lion, buffalo and hippo with the big stuff and everything else was taken with 300 Wby, 30/06 and 9.3 x 62. That means kudu, orys, eland, zebra, leopard and smaller etc.
The closest call I have had to date was being charged by a leopard and a 416 anything would not have killed that leopard any quicker or deader than the 300 Wby did that day.
The fact that Sako may or may not have dropped the caliber means nothing to me. As the ex largest collector of Sako in the world I have come to understand some of the thinking of the Finns. They were the last to join the Rem Mag bandwagon and now if they dropped it is because they not only let the first bloom drop from the rose but the second and third when it came to buyers and users of Rem. Mags.
The main claims to fame of my favorite brand maker is that they were the first with 222 Rem (even thought Rem. developed the cartridge) they were one of the first with investment castings and they were the first and still the only true maker of three size actions. They shoot good, look good, work good but only God knows why the Finns ( and now Beretta ) do what they do at Sako.
It does not have to make good logic.
Some of you can continue to holler, "The sky is falling...oh...and the Rem Mag is dead!" The sellers, buyers and users of this caliber know that is not so and is not going to be so for a very long time to come. By then...many good things will have been improved upon.

[ 06-15-2002, 02:35: Message edited by: Harry ]

I get tremendous enjoyment out of these "the .416 Remington Magnum is dying" threads!

It'll be around long after we're all gone.

Russ

HI,

This is kind of funny to me. As I have been looking at different rounds and trying to decide which round I would have a custom rifle made in. After a long and hard look at all the facts I have come to the 416 REMINGTON and I would only say the facts that MR. Atkinson said is my reasons for this also. And if the 416 Ultra mag does take off one can always just have the 416 REMINGTON changed over with not to much work. I don't think if would be really neccesary as what does a 100 or 150 fps differents really make in the field, so at 350 yards instead of 12 inch drop you get 10 inch. Thanks,Kev

The 416Rem is dying? There's likely been more 416 Remington rifles built in the 14 or so years it's been around than all of the 416 Rigbys ever built. As Mike375 said, IMO this is a hunter's cartridge and serious hunters use it, and use it a lot. It's not a cartridge taken to heart by the guys only interested in owning a big bore just for the sake of owning one, nor is it the darling of the romantic nostalgic crowd. In the field it duplicates what either the 404 or 416 Rigby does, at a fraction of the cost for brass or factory ammo. It'll be around long after the hunting of appropriate game ends.

My 416 Rem isn't dead yet!


[ 06-15-2002, 06:32: Message edited by: Jerry Huffaker ]

If at some point in History Bertram is the only company to offer brass things are getting dire for the .416 rem mag

Do you really reckon you would get between 7000-10000 loads for 500 .416 rem mag cases??

PC,

Zero Drift posted the number of reloads you could get from 500 cases in 416 Remigton, which would have amounted to 10 to 20 reloads per case.

The Americans load softer than we do. If it is in the Hornady manual etc. as maximum, you approach with caution.

We are a bit different. In the context of how the Americans load ammo, I think Zero's estimation of brass life was correct. Also, the Americans are not likely to take a 416 Reminton spotlighting and have cases fly all over the place.

Mike.

I do not get that many reloads from my cases because when there lying all over the back of the ute tray, they usually get stood on and bent out of round, subsequently full length resising is harder on them than it ought to be .

I also think Nick Harvery's (Aussie equivalent of Craig Bodington ) Reloading Manual push's the max loadings quite a bit which probably does nothing for my case life either .

The .416 Remington, while not selected by all, is acknowledged by all as a very fine buffalo cartridge for the visiting hunter ... better for such use than is the .375 and, with practice, nearly as shootable for all-round application. These strengths are inherent and will always be there. I feel it possible that, after the attraction of the "nostalgia rounds" has run its' course and the larger, more specialized bores have been experienced/evaluated, this cartridge will enjoy a steady resurgence, with more and more hunters deciding to "settle" for it, solidifying its' standing.

Nick,

What about if Remington or Winchester drop a 416 Ultra on the market or Winchester offers the 458 Lott in its standard rifle.

Mike

Nick, I think you're right.

The .416 Remington is such a useful and practical cartridge, that it's hard to find anything negative to say about it other than the fact that factory loads are expensive! I really believe that anyone who can shoot the .375 H&H well can learn to shoot a .416 Remington well, plus the rifles will weight about the same, and the magazine capacity will remain the same.

A tough cartridge to top unless you're so very driven by nostalgia that you just can't see past early 20th Century British cartridges. I see myself for what I am: An American hunter who buys African safaris. So American rifles and cartridges will continue suite me best - except for the .375 H&H, of course!

AD

PC - I use a .416 Dakota which is a little warmer than the .416Rem and it doesn�t have that goofy belt on it. I originally purchased 80 cases with my gun over 5 years ago. I segregated the brass into two lots of 40 cases. I checked my load data last night and I have loaded the original lot 12 times and the second lot 3 times. I have 30 rounds loaded at the moment, netting 570+/- shots through the bore.

To do this you must become practiced in the much maligned art of annealing brass and treating the brass some a modicum of respect - i.e. not stepping on the cases. Annealing take about 20 minutes to become a zen master at it. In addition, inspecting the brass for pressure signs, mic�ing the cases, and checking for case head separation is a simple matter in order to keep things safe. Dakota brass costs a little over $2 a case, so stretching the number of reloads is as much a cost cutting method as it is saving time prepping the brass.

416Rem brass will be available one way or other. I would not worry too much about availability, however, in a pinch, you can reload the same brass many times.

All reloading manuals are full of cartridges abandoned by the manufacturers. The 220 Swift is one and there must be 100 others. All this means is you can't but a Remington, Winchester or Whatever over the counter. However, the cartridge is STILL ALIVE. As I sit here half asleep this morning I can't think of any modern smokeless cartridge that has been abandoned by the COMPONENT makers. We can still get bullet and brass for dang near anything under the sun...or at least come close enough a simple case conversion is possible. And of course the gunsmiths will be happy to chamber a rifle for anything you've got the money to pay for. Point being rifles may come and go...but cartridges don't. They tend to be "eternal." Cartridges die when WE abandon them....not Remington, Winchester, Etc.

As long as primers can be bought, reloaders will always "survive" better than over-the-counter guys. It's just a fact of life. As for case availability, if you go to http://www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/ and run the Ammo Guide to look up dimensions, it appears that you can convert a lot of other "popular" cases (to include the .375 H&H Magnum) into .416 Remington Magnum.

Finally, even with something "interesting" like a .416 RUM, I just don't see Remington's first .416 cartridge being buried. It's here to stay, for many reasons.

Russ

Mike375,
I don't see the ULTRA as a lasting threat to the "standard" .416 Remington, at least not from a dangerous game perspective. Hunters are aware that more speed is not needed and may indeed increase the likelihood of bullet failure at the closer ranges, on the big stuff. I see it much as Allen & Ray do. Plenty of performance which can be harnessed quite nicely in a somewhat lighter and trimmer rifle.

A factory .458 Lott offering would be a smart move but, again, I don't see it as a long term threat to the .416 Remington as many will try the Lott and find it too much. They may not openly admit this of course, but they show up for the next buffalo hunt with a .416, as it is much easier to handle, IMHO.

I've shot buffalo with .375 through .458 Lott and this coming August I'll be using a .505. I know, of course, I don't need this level of power but I want to experience it at least once in my life. I'm sure I'll, one day, be quite content to settle down with a more manageable chambering in an easy carrying rig ... probably in .416 Rem.

I just don't see all of this speculation about a 416RUM ever being anything more than that. Their current RUM lineup isn't setting any sales records anyway, and to outmode an existing chambering of their own making? Very doubtful, IMO.
The 416 Remington may be plain vanilla to a lot of gun cranks but to a man who actually hunts the type of game it is designed for it is wonderful. Plenty of power, penetration and not bad recoil. Components can be bought for it at any time for far less than anything else in it's size range. Sounds like a perennial winner to me!

As unual, I don't own a 416 Remington but I'm really loving this thread! I've shot a 458 Win 1 time.....That was something. How does a 416 Rem compare to a 458 in terms of recoil?

Nebraska,
Once you pass 375 it all becomes numb and dumb...I can't tell much difference until I get to 500 when I can't keep my chew in my mouth, thats my borameter....

I'll come clean with you all, I actually find the cx hog back stocks pleasing to the eye I know darn well I shouldn't. But I do like them. I just wish they were in a good quality synthetic.

I spoke with the CZ importer at the S.H.O.T. Show and he was as frustrated with the plant as most of us are. Somehow the idea that they could sell even more .416's and .375's if they got rid of the European style stock doesn't sink in. If they were making an after-market straight they were selling to the American customers, that would make sense in a sneakythieivingcapitalist sort of way but they aren't. I guess they feel that the current market absorbs everything they produce so why fix what isn't broken. Anyway, getting a decent straight grain Great American Gunstocks, Wenig, etc. drop-in isn't that expensive and you get a full-size, square-bridge African for a very reasonable price. Personally, I'm going to do the same thing with my .450 some day but right now I'm so fascinated with my .318 and .404 that not much else is getting played with. Maybe in 2004 I'll start messing around more with my 9.3 and then God alone knows when the .450 will get dressed up!

Anyway, for the practica,l traveling hunter after big, bitey, stompy critters, the .416 Rem is still the most practical choice on the market and likely to remain so for many generations. It ain't goin' away!

Hi
Intesting discusion this...
I draw the following conclusions as answers to my two questions:

Am I right in beliving that the 416 Rem is on the slope as a factory rifle chambering and for component avalabillity?
Yes I was right! Natuarly ALL calibers can be reloaded, but that was not what I ment with my question.

If so, is there a real hunting / Shooting reason for the faling popularity of th 416 Rem caliber?
No there is not, this caliber is just as good for big game hunting as I thought.

For my needs, i will go for a 458 win.
With a 400 gr bullet i can get the same practical
bullet path as a 416 Rem. As for bullet selection,
there are a lot of sutible bullets that can topple a Swedish moose over, making bullet selection easier than if I was going after game demanding moore of the bullet.

//

Softlead,

With a name like you have, you will love all those 45 caliber bullets

Mike