OK:
First this is no longer a dream. The CZ 550 is back, in 375 H&H, with a kickease pad, and wearing a new, Bushnell, 3-9x Elite 3200 scope.

I'll give the bracing into the shoulder more thought, and, I'm thinking about bringing hunting sticks.

Off hand it isn't that bad, it's just my ability to focus and hold down range limits my groups at 50 yards, to about 5 inches with open sites.

To really have fun with any rifle, it has to be accurate, and, I have to be able to shoot it better then that to be happy.

Given the day was freezing, howling wind,and, I was doing most of my shooting with my other, current rifle, a CZ 452 22 lr, the step from one to the other may have been a bit much.

I had 6 shot groups around 2 inches with the 22, off the bench, at 50 yards, also open sites.

Likewise, that rifle is getting a scope as well.

PS: Mr. Taylor: The only boxer I can think of that compares to Clay, was, Sugar Ray Robinson.

Pound for pound, given his competition, La Motta, Randy Turpin, Carmen Basillio, the french guy, Marcel Cerdan, who was 105-2, and went down in a plane crash, and the other one of the big five, who's names elude me, right now, Bobo Olsen?
the one Robinson hit with a left hook in round 5, ko, it's hard to say Clay compares.

It never ceases to amaze me the quality of the people Robinson beat.

One could argue that what made Robinson was his longevity, resliancy, and the time in which he lived.

If you take any of the 5 fighters I mentioned, you could make a really good argument, that if not for Robinson, they would have been the best middleweights of all time.

The Cerdan would have been 105-1. Turpin won the light heavy title, La Motta did, and did so did Olsen?

Ali had Frazier, Foreman, and made all the 60's guys look pathetic.

The only other fighters I can think of to put in the same category are Roberto Duran, as the undisputed lightweight title holder for 8 years,
the middleweight, Argentinian, Carlos Monzon, who ended up in jail for murder, who was undeafeated as a middleweight, Marvin Hagler, for taking the best dive of all time against Sugar Ray Leonard, then retiring to make two action pictures in Italy for 10 mill each(can we say the biggest dive of all time?), perhaps Alexis Arguello, if not for that coke freak, Aaron Pryor. Who else?

gs

Practice with light loads and work up slowly. Is there a rush??? You're on your own schedule (I hope), make it work FOR you, not AGAINST you. Just hold hard EVERYTIME and go from there. You'll be fine.

Ali was a great showman and entertainer. He had pretty "butterfly" footwork. Beyond that, I think there were MANY better boxers -- but I've always remembered something I learned in college about "tests." Tests just measure your performance at a single moment in time -- a snapshot. Failing today means nothing if you ace things tomorrow... and vice versa. Winners fail, failures win, and it's all just luck of the draw when you get "tested." Ali "crammed" well, I think... but there were a lot of other guys who were more knowledgeable of the subject, so to speak. They just didn't always do so well on test days.

Russ

HI,

500, what is this non -sense of a 375 or simular round being to light, it is untrue.I don't know maybe this is a way of just trying to start am argument. I am now more determine than ever to hunt BUFF with my lever in a 50-110.Thanks,kev

HI,

500, a 400 grain bullet out of a 416 at 2300fps is okay, but a 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps out of a lever is not. This whole thing is just plain foolishness. Kev

Mr. Taylor:

Clay was the fastest heavyweight of all time.

His hand speed, combined with the mass of his arms created tremendous stopping power. E=MC squared, I believe. So, as the speed increases, or the mass, the energy increases geometrically.

Just apply the same concepts of foot pounds of energy to Clay, and you have his gift, similar to the effect in stopping power you get with Weatherby rifles, in certain cases.

I spent about 8 years getting kicked and punched by the former world Heavyweight Karate champ, from 77-85. He also had this gift, and was the fastest man I've ever sparred with.

One time he jumped backwards, snapped out a punch that I blocked with my forearm, and I could feel the bones in my arm bend from the impact. This while he was completely off the ground...

Sugar Ray Robinson was simply the toughest man on the planet, pound for pound. He took a great punch, and had the fastest hands, and the best combinations, of anyone, ever...at least from the tapes, and comments I've heard from people that watched, and fought him. Also probably the best conditioned fighter of all-time, considering his record, 222-22 or something like that, and his response in most fights.
Oh, I remember he also had a number of devastating 1 punch knock outs as well. A deadly puncher, with either hand.
He also knew how to recover from a loss. On those rare occassions, he knew what he had to do to get into condition, and, be ready for the next fight, to win, and did it.

gs

In other words, penetration is reflected by sectional density.

What it really comes down to is the specs 500grains is using are proven performers, having been tried on many game animals. They penetrate, stay on line, and work.

Depending upon bullet design, the Sectional density characteristics reflect the above.

What I am trying to say is that your questions, and ideas have been tried by the people, in this case 500grains, and probably Atkinson, and a few others, and they all know what works, and what doesn't, and they come up with math to explain real experience.

To further inforce 500grains point, you might have a look at the current American Handgunner, July/august, where at the John Linebaugh meeting, you'll find others that have experimented with
similar calibers, and come to similar results.John Taffin wrote the article.

Gs

Socrates, you'd better take some of the numbers that get presented (not necessarily on this thread, but in general) with a grain of salt. I could run all of the numbers myself when I was sixteen years old, and interpret them to perfection - all with two deer and two elk to my credit!

It's amazing what twenty-eight succeeding years and 200 succeeding big game animals on the ground does to your interpretive powers when it comes to cartridge evaluation........

AD

Allen Day: That's exactly my point.

Still, there seems to be a consensus among most here. 375 H&H is adequate for just about everything, and penetrates very well.
416 is better, but recoils more. Anything more is into the Stopper Category, usually the province of professional hunters, gun nuts, or masochists, or any combination thereof.

One point from the Linebaugh seminar is bullet weight appears to be more effective then sectional density, many times, for penetration.

I wonder if at a certain point, bullet width becomes so wide, that to overcome the width of the bullet, and maintain penetration, you have to increase the bullet weight so much, that the gun becomes unshootable?

I'm taking this from handgun stuff, but, the 475 Linebaugh appears to be the top penetrator, with about 435 grain slugs.

The 500 requires 485 grain slugs or so, to maintain similar penetration, IIRC. At that point, the recoil becomes so heavy few if any can shoot the pistol, and hit anything, without damage.

Perhaps the 416 is sort of that point. I've talked to local big bore guys, and they grimace at the thought of the 470 Nitro, or anything bigger, without serious muzzle breaks, or porting.

Seems like many experienced members consider the 416 the ideal round, maintaining penetration, and larger frontal area...

Since I can't see shooting anything much heavier then the 375 currently, I'll bow to Ray, and company, that consider the 416 the way to go.

I guess I was also trying to point out that increasing the pressure to maximum resulting in exteme recoil on any cartridge, makes little sense, and even less for such rifles as the 375 or 416.

gs

HI,

I cannot remark on the subject of a charging BUFF as I never have hunted one. I happen to look at recoil of a 375AI with a 300 grain bullet and a 416 Remington with a 350 grain bullet.And the differents is very little according pounds of recoil, so this help me to finally decide to go with the 416 Rem when I got my next rifle. And the fact with a handload with a 350 grain 416 REM it will shot just about as flat. Thanks,Kev

If you're using a legal calibre isn't the issue here that its not whether you are shooting a 300 gr bullet or a 500 gr bullet, but that you know your rifle and shoot it well.

And all this BS about Professional Hunters and what THEIR job is. They're the professional, not the amateur client. If you stuff up the shot THEY'RE the one who decides if you should sit in the car, or be trusted to help with killing a wounded dangerous animal.

If old timers like Harry Manners could shoot possibly hundreds of elephants and thousands of buffalos with a 375 it seems just a bit silly to say they are inadequate. Perhaps a minimum but not inadequate.

Amyway I'm happy with using my 375 this year.

John (Nitro),

With what you just stated, if the PH is comfortable with a client using a 45/70, what is your feeling regarding this gun for a Buff hunt?

Roger (QSL)

Roger

If I was buying the hunt I wouldn't even dream of using a 45/70.

But if I won a hunt for a buff for free and had to use a 45/70, and if the PH was happy to go along and is competent and using something sensible, then I would give it a try. Because unless the raffle winner picks a very careful shot, I suspect the PH will be finishing the job anyway.

But I think a 375 or 9.3 is streets ahead of the lumbering old 45/70, and these are the calibres mentioned as being irresponsible at the beginning of this thread.

[ 07-20-2002, 23:37: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

Nitro as with any shot if the guy shooting muffs it. The the other is going to put the finsh in. Shooting something with a little lighter gun in the right spot is much better then shooting something with too large of gun in the wrong spot. Way to many large animals have been killed with less then ideal rounds to say that they do not work.It is more of knowing your rifles capibiltys and the place you put the bullet then the size that matters. I think one can go to the extremes on both ends and not have the right gun for the job.

Have I heard this arguement before?, yes I think I have.

Ray yes you have and you well until time stops.Thats what makes life interesting.

Pdog

I am confused.

I think what you wrote agrees with both of my posts.

Yes I agree with you using the right calibre for the job and what the hunter is used too and comfortable, the right bullet for the calibre, and shooting it in the right place.

My comment was to know your rifle and shoot it well.

Nitro nothing to be confuse about we seem to agree.

To 500grains:

I just had to reply to your comment about it not being a good idea to hunt elk with a .243. As in most things, it depends on a whole lot of other ingredients in the equation. I have an uncle who has killed large numbers of elk, and he swears, rather derisively, that no one needs more than a .243 for elk.

Of course, you need to know that he has been a professional trapper all his life, is a superb shot, a fantastic woodsman, and has the patience to wait for the right shot in the right place at the right time. He regularily dines on elk, but then he is not on a tight time schedule, he knows the hunting ground very well, and he is not hunting trophies.

Desert Rat,

Your Uncle is a "Hunter"!

Roger

To QSL:

Yes, my uncle is a "Hunter", and a very sucessfull one, I might add. By profession, he is a trapper, and has been all of his adult life.