The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is it irresponsible for the client to carry a light caliber for dangerous game?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
It seems there are quite a few forumites who feel that a client can hunt dangerous game (defined here as elephant, rhino, buffalo, hippo only) with a much lighter caliber than a professional hunter. The assumption seems to be that if things go wrong, the PH will be there with a stopping rifle to smooth things out. I wonder if forumites feel it is irresponsible to hunt with the lighter calibers, such as 375, 45-70, 9.3 x 62, etc, because it places much more responsibility on the PH, and because the client's gun just might not cut the mustard if things go wrong. | ||
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One of Us |
I think my .375H&H will "cut the mustard" on buffalo, hippo and down. I could never afford rhino or elephant so, yes, I feel ok with my rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have not hunted dangerous game, but I can form an opinion in the absence of knowledge or experience as fast as any other male human being. I don't want to impose my opinions on anyone else, but here is how I approach the matter. I think it is an unethical stunt to go after a large thick-skinned animal with a weapon that is not plausibly up to the task of killing it. If a major consideration is the fact that my PH is standing there with a 460 because my 30 cal. Match King, soft lead round ball, or 200 grain broadhead is not likely to be effective; I would consider my choice of weapon to not be plausibly up to the task. Everything I've heard tells me that a 375 or 9.3x62 is up to the task of killing a buffalo. H. C. | |||
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one of us |
For me I would hunt with a .375 with proper bullets. But then I would not take a shot that is not equally proper. So for myself I don't consider it irresponsible. Each hunter will have to answer for himself. jim dodd | |||
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| one of us |
Here we go again! After reading Atkinson's thread where it took 13, 470s, 9 before expiring, 12 and 8 500 NE and 458s to kill Buffalo, what size round in a poor shots hands will it take. My suggestion would be the Abrahms with a 105. The tank for personal protection and the 105 for gut shooting the animal. Even a rotten hit in the guts with this round will do the beast in. Gee, you wouldn't even need to hire a PH. Sorry I sent this to the African Game Post, but I thought it didn't qualify for the humor post. Hi, Hi Formite | |||
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one of us |
I don't see why a 375 or a 9,3x62 will not be perfect for some dangerous game if you are careful and you don't play to be M.Sullivan. Robertson in his book "The Perfect shot" highly recomends the 9,3x62 for buffalo, he says is much better killer than the 375 H&H when you hunt buff in thick bush, but only with solid bullets. LG | |||
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| <mikeh416Rigby> |
quote:I think the idea of using the 105mm is simply outstanding! I just checked on E-bay though, and the price is just a tad out of my budget. However, if a couple of members wanted to go in on one together..... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| <North of 60> |
Sorry boys but the 105 has proven to be a bit light and the newer NATO standard of 120mm would be a much better choice. The 105 should be reserved for non-dangerous game such as gophers or perhaps groundhogs if you move up to the spent-uranium sabot round. I believe the Russians have a 125mm which might even be better. Don't be irresponsible with your choice! | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
500grains, If it is legal and the PH has no objections then I say it is perfectly fine! I KNOW THIS IS A FACT,THE PH KNOWS ONE HELL OF A LOT MORE ABOUT KILLING THE BIG CRITTERS THAN YOU DO! If your PH tells you NO or it is ILLEGAL then it either ILLEGAL or ILLOGICAL. Oh, guess what you won't be hunting if your PH doesn't approve of your weapon will you. Why don't you go get a nice cold beer and cry in awhile maybe you will feel better. BTW, I am still waiting for those FACTS!!!!!!! Load that 120mm NATO with APFSDSDU or you will not achieve acceptable penetration on those thick skinned dangerous game species! Todd E [ 06-24-2002, 01:38: Message edited by: Todd E ] | ||
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| one of us |
Since when is the .375HH too light for dangerous game? Who said that-ever? The 9.3x62 is legal in many African countries for Buffalo. 45-70? Ain't in the league with either of the above. You'd be better off with a 30-06 and 220gr bullets. If the ph thinks it is ill advised, he will not hesitate to express his opinion which will be binding in most cases. AFter all, it is not only his butt, but his reputation on the line. Ku-dude | |||
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| <mikeh416Rigby> |
quote:I must vehimently disagree with your choice. The ballistic coefecient is much too low to deliver satisfactory results when compared to the 105. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| <MePlat> |
As long as it is worked out with the PH it is none of anyones business. It is his behind not yours. If you don't want to try it than it is your business. Unless you are footing the bill for the hunt than it may be some of your business. Even then it may be doubtful. | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:A .243 is legal for elk but not a very good idea. | |||
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one of us |
I can only say what I have said before, if I ever get to Africa, it will be my hunt, not the PH's. I don't want the PH to have back me up. I have always hunted primarily alone, including the years in Alaska, where you do run across an occasional big nasty, so having to have a PH is not something I'm used to. I can always buy a video tape of someone shooting a buff (_____animal of choice_____) if that's what I wanted in the first place (no I havn't). But that is just me. I don't hang out in deer camp with the keg either. All that and I didn't answer the question. If you and the PH can agree on the gun your going to use, that kind of constitutes informed consent. It could still be bad judgement. I know I would have to meet the expectations of the PH regarding the caliber and gun, but that does not mean that I am limited to that if I can handle more gun, does it? I have seen some big nasties up close and personal, admittedly not in Africa, and more is better if you can handle them OK. [ 06-24-2002, 06:35: Message edited by: 8MM OR MORE ] | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
500grains, Why don't you step into the realm of reality! There are minimum caliber requirements in every African country. If you HAD ACTUALLY EVER BEEN THERE you would know that! You may be able to get a canned hunt on several continents were you can shoot DG with a 243 or a 30 bore, but in Africa it is illegal. I do not bribe either to achieve this type of idiotic behavior perhaps you do? You are very fond of spewing section density requirements. Answer this question for me. Is the use of the 505 Gibbs (original factory load), 500 Jeffery (original factory load), 8 bore, or 4 bore acceptable for Dangerous Game based upon your self stated requirements for section density? Also, explain why if you would. Todd E | ||
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| <Dice2> |
Jumpin Horny Toads! Todd you came out swinging like Smokey Joe himself. I hope you do give 500 grains the opportunity to enter the ring before the bell rings. I know my .375 Weatherby with proper bullets would be a match for any dangerous game listed above, nor weahter or not I wish to use it would be another matter I discuss with the PH first. | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:Wow. I did not know you were upset. If you had been paying attention to past threads you would know my African hunting experience. No need to repeat it here. I prefer to be able to take the game down myself. It is my prime objective to handle each situation so that the PH will never need to touch the trigger the entire hunt. Using a legal minimum caliber unfortunately does not satisfy my objective. One of the trackers even found an expanded .375 H&H bullet in by buff's stomach lining. It was mushroomed just perfect, and the buffalo had recovered fully. Think about that. As for the .243, you misread. Please read my post again. Regarding the old loads for 500 jeff and 505 gibbs and the 4 bore and 8 bore, see the lever gun thread for an answer. Cheers! | |||
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one of us |
I think there is only one rule take the biggest you can handle without flinching !! If it's bigger than the ph's backup so what doens't matter no matter what you hit the animal with it's where you hit it that counts. Safari-Hunt www.Safari-Hunt.com | |||
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| one of us |
Not rich enough yet to have hunted DG but just my personal thoughts : It's a stupid snobism to put oneself in front of any game with the lightest caliber possible (let's say with obviously unsufficient caliber) because : 1) If your shot is not absolutely perfect (yes it can happen even to the best of us), let's say 2" apart from where you were aiming at, you have better chances to succeed (survive) with big bore. 2) You PH can miss as well and it isn't wise to rely on him as a bodyguard (even if he is an excellent shot). 3) And if he kills the charging animal, well, it's HIS trophy, not yours anymore. should be very frustrating to contemplate your buff shoulder mount on your chimney when you know you paid for him and didn't kill him yourself ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} .So : shoot a rifle you can use to save your ass if the things turn bad! I don't think that lots of people would go for lion and buffalo with bow or handgun if there was no PH to back them up with a big 470... Just my $ 0.02 | |||
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| <allen day> |
I think that a client should follow the advice of his professional hunter and carry ordinance that's in line with the philosophy of his PH. This usually means bring the biggest caliber-legal rifle you can handle and shoot well for all dangerous game except for leopard. Even so, as the old saying goes, if you lose your shirt you'd better know how to cover your ass with your hand. A case in point: Several years ago, my .458 malfunctioned on a Tanzanian safari. It was either hunt with my .300 Winchester or forget about the two remaining cape buffalo and the lion I had yet on license. As it turns out (in part, because of the toughness of Fail-Safe bullets) I dropped all of these animals with one shot apiece. You couldn't have killed them any deader if you would have used a .458 Lott. And no, I won't be trying this again anytime soon! AD | ||
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| one of us |
A better question might be , is there really anything to be gained using the heaviest of calibers ? If you consider , as Ray Atkinson says , a wounded , charging buff will only go down to a brain or spinal hit , you may be better off with one of the lighter calibers with excellent penetration such as 9.3 , .375 or .416 . I would guess that the average person could get twice the rate of AIMED fire with a 9.3 rather than a .458 Lott . And that out of a lighter , quicker handling gun that could easily be made to hold alot more ammo ......... | |||
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one of us |
To address the original question, I don't expect (or want, frankly) anyone to back me up. If I don't have the hardware on hand to put down "whatever," then I deserve to be trampled in a violent and grotesque manner. Elmer Keith was a man for all times. Leave the "pest guns" at home. Russ | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree with Russell. The job of the PH is to find the game, not to wipe my chin and babysit me. I consider shooting game animals to be an individual activtiy, not a group activity. If the PH needs to shoot then I have not done my job. Because I plan to do all the shooting, I also plan to take a gun that will get the job done even when the shots presented are far less than optimal. By the way, it is possible to slow a cape buff down and stop him with multiple big bullets to the body. It is just a lot more difficult to do than shooting him in the brain or spine. The fact is that 3 or 4 .375 H&H's to the chest will not stop a charging buff, but 1 or 2 .577 NE's will (often, not always). | |||
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| one of us |
A lot of misinterpetation and some good ideas bouncing around out here... Because a Bull takes 13 hits has absolutly nothing to do with a 9.3 or 375 killing Buffalo or a 470 not being enough gun for goodness sake.. It simply stresses the importance of that all mighty important first shot on dangerous game, and that was the point I was trying to make... If that first shot goes bad and is a bit too far back, you can bet your sweet bippie that your in for a tough one. Caliber isn't the main criteria with Buffalo, that first shot is...Caliber makes a difference, but not as much as some might think within reason. What ever you shoot must have penitration first and foremost. If one can shoot a 9.3 or 375 better then that is the gun to use...If he can shoot a 600 N.E. as well then thats an even better gun for him. Some folks just don't accept plain old horse since whatever.... I shoot a 416, 404 or 450-400 all 40 calibers, the reason is that I shoot them better under FIELD CONDITIONS...I can shoot any gun at the range or off a bench if I have to, but it takes some effort and concentration, a luxury I cannot afford in the bush.... I doubt seriously if those that hunt with a 9.3x62 or 375 H&H need much help from a PH as those are normally folks that shoot well and have confidence with those guns..Remember my bulls were wounded with very heavy caliber double rifles, a 470 and a 500 N.E., that were not shot well wheather it was the iron sights as claimed or the recoil which I suspect was the problem, makes little difference..Now thats where responsibility comes into play. Don't you agree. Personally I'm confortable with a 9.3x62 as are most folks that have used them, have you ever heard a bad word from anyone who has used them on buffalo and elephant....I haven't, and don't think I can say that about any other caliber, hmmmm....You could say the same for the 375 if people didn't load them up to such high velocity I suspect..I know like minded men who load them down to 2350 FPS and have nary a problem, might be a lesson here... Johan Calitz told an man at the Dallas gun show that the 375 H&H is a wonderfull gun for people that can shoot it and that about sez it all...... Most charging buffalo, Elephant and Hippo are killed with a brain shot, at least that has been my observation...Lions, Leopard run about 50-50 on brain or heart shots as they are simply easier to kill with properly place shoulder type shots. | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Ray, Are you bored like me? I am just curious why you are bothering talking to these guys. I mean they are so far gone they are not worth saving. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
quote:While I haven't hunted buff in Africa, I have -- for quite some time -- been reading what you guys have to say on the subject. The salient point seems to be that you want to shoot a buff that isn't hyped on adrenaline. Over and over, I keep reading "lessons" from those of you who have "gone before," and this seems to be the recurring theme. Shoot one and not kill it, and you're going to have a pissed-off buff who won't go down easily. Shoot one in the right place with him unaware, and it's a walk in the park. Not being Mark Sullivan, I'd prefer the park walk. It's just like shooting other things that are nearly indestructible when under the influence of adrenaline... bank robbers, Marines, "Jurassic Park" dinosaurs... they aren't going to go down quietly. Pretty much anything on the planet is a LOT easier to put down when it isn't operating on an adrenaline dump. Russ [ 06-25-2002, 06:28: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ] | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Russ, Your comments about buffalo go for the big bears too! Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Don't think animals have the same sort of wimpy tolerance we do to pain. After much training, I firmly believe in the concept of "chi". It resembles the same sort of concept you all put to adrenal fluid. It's the ability to focus energy in your body, and use it to accomplish your goal, denying injury or pain. Given awareness of the danger, chi can be used to focus on, and defend against blows. If the buffalo knows you are there, and are trying to shoot it, it can focus energy into that area to minimize the damages effect on it's system. Suffice to say, I believe dangerous game have a ton more of it then we do. They have an ability to focus on a goal, take all their God given energy, and it's pretty clear He gave more of it to them, then us(if you don't believe that, who would you rather face, an angry Cape Buffalo or Ali?) That said, whack em while they don't know you are there, and you are fine. IF they know you are trying to kill them, all bets are off. Someone posted a link to a 4 bore lung and heart shot cape buffalo running 60 yards before dieing. That's when I bought a 375. If a 4 bore won't knock down a Cape buffalo, nothing short of a 50 BMG might, and, that M-60, 23 year old tank I had a chance to play with, complete with M-60 30 cal machine gun, BMG, and that "old" ineffective, 105 MM cannon, start to look very good. I trust Ray's opinion, and, I just don't know if I can shoot a 416 well enough to kill anything but me... gs | |||
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| One of Us |
Soc, You would find the recoil of a 416 fairly mild, if there were a good pachmyr decelerator pad at the end of it. | |||
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| <allen day> |
I don't consider the recoil of the .416 Remington (for example) to be all that bad. As far as I'm concerned, if a client can learn to shoot a .375 H&H with precision and without subconscious flinch under field conditions, that same client can learn to shoot a .416, and shoot it well. It's just a matter of time, effort, attitude, and intelligent practice. AD | ||
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| <leo> |
It's silly to think that a client has to use a "bonafide-stopper" caliber to be ethical. A smart PH would want you to use a caliber that you shoot well and that is reasonable but not necessarily all that powerful. To think that a 9.3x62 or .375 is not enough or for that matter that lessor calibers can't work fine is just shear folly. The main thing is that you hit any animal right with a bullet that properly penetrates. Quite frankly, a PH is there to back you up. We have such wonderful expanding bullets these days that lessor calibers are just more than they used to be. | ||
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| <leo> |
Snobism is not using a light caliber on large dangerous game............snobism is showing how tough you are by using a big bore rifle for same and dising those who don't. And a PH's job is to back you up, period! | ||
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| one of us |
quote:I dare say that if a big, mean pachyderm was rapidly approaching, you wouldn't notice the recoil at all. Russ | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Pre-Parkinson's Ali, or post-Parkinson's Ali? I agree with your points on chi, though. Russ | |||
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| <Mondele> |
No PH will allow you to shot at lions, leoprad, elephant, rhino or buffalol with any caliber less than legal. He would loose his licence if something goes wrong. He is not going to risk that regardless what the client says or does. Only idiots try to kill dangerous animals with small calibers. Visit any graveyard in Tanzania or Kenya and read the tombstones. | ||
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| one of us |
OK: First Cassius Clay puts both versions of Ali to shame;-) Second: Clay weighted 220-235, not, 2000-2200, and, he didn't have horns. Plus, as mean as any human can be, without weapons, he's pretty much a joke when faced up against any of the large, dangerous game we are discussing. What is amazing is our ability to absorb damage. For a good comparision, watch professional bull riding. Those bulls remind me of Cape Buffalo but, not quite as mean... I'm using a "Kickease" pad. Are the Pachmyers that much better? My local gunsmith suggests the Kickease is a better pad? I haven't shot rifles much, in a very long time. Perhaps, with the 1000 or so rounds of 06 I just picked up, I can work my way back to being able to take heavy recoil, in rifles, comfortably. I can with pistols, but, 454 casual level loads still tear up my wrist muscles a bit. I also have a theory about factory loads, but I don't know if this holds true with the current stuff. When I was reloading, I used to use some remmington ammo for a 44 bulldog. Giant flash, no accuracy, really slow bullet speed, just garbage. My own reloads gave me less flash and recoil, 250 fps more speed, and way better accuracy. They also shot the gun loose... Just wondering if part of my recoil problem maybe the ammunition I'm using. The 270 grain softpoints are supposed to go 2700 fps out of a 22-24 inch barrel? Mines 25, so I'm guessing I get about 2750. Seems to me a good handload, with better powders, might considerably reduce pressure and recoil, while keeping the same ballistics level. Another thought is that the load is into the pressure area of diminishing returns. In other words, a "bonafide-stopper" could be loaded into the area where it's terminal ballistics are awesome, but, the pressure used to generate those ballistics don't create massive recoil. In other words, except for long range shooting, wouldn't a 300 grain bullet at 2400 fps or, a 400 grain bullet in the 2300-2400 out of a 416 be sufficent, rather then pushing the pressure envelope by going into the magnum velocity areas, where barrel length becomes a very important factor to take advantage of the extra pressure? Or to take it to a more extreme example. At 50 yards, a 500 grain, 458 bullet, at 2100 fps is considered somewhat of the bottom line for a stopping rifle. Would a 416, with a 400 grain, let's say Barnes X bullet, at 2100 fps not be considered adequate, and if so, what planet are you hunting on, in the hands of the client? I suspect such a round shouldn't recoil anymore then my 270's @ 2750 , but, would provide the safety factor we are discussing. My idea is NOT new. Preaching to the choir, but these concepts are just an extension of the basic H&H designs, and, the basic Nitro Express guns. Lower pressure, 2000 fps, heavy bullets, large caliber, game is stopped. gs Comments? | |||
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| One of Us |
soc, I think you will find that 2300 fps out of your 416 R with 400 grains will be quite tolerable and will handle DG just fine. Kickeez pads are excellent. | |||
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| one of us |
Mondele, Now your really showing your counterfietness, or you would know better than that...Once again your talking through your a$$...It's done all the time and by everybody, You been reading again and watching too many movies.....If your going to profess to be a PH and live in Arusha, then at least do some homework.... | |||
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| one of us |
quote:True. I'm old enough to remember. Honestly... seriously... if you hold the rifle HARD into your shoulder before you even put your finger inside the trigger guard... you'll be fine. It's more of a "push" than a "kick." And .375 H&H Magnums aren't that bad. My gunsmith buddy calls them "a .270 on steroids" (which I'm sure he's quoting from someone else). As long as you don't get some stupid featherweight rifle, you'll be fine. Really. Russ | |||
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