The tragic death of Mr Lewis (in my opinion) points out the idea of doing a DG hunt on ones first african hunt is not a good idea. One or two PG hunts seasons one to the "Safari" feel.

The first time hunt one is caught up in the glamor of the hunt not the reality of the hunt. One learns that all game in Africa can be dangerous i e a wounded bushbuck or other PG. African animals cling to life more so than most other game of the world.

This is not to say the hunters in this case were not in the proper frame of mind, they well may have been. Mr Lewis was a brave and courages man going after a wounded Buff with an appy and green horn hunter.

I hope these thoughts do not cause a fire storm here.

I don't think the "first time DG" aspect is as big a deal as a client who is not skilled enough to hunt DG in the first place.

On my first safari, I shot a leopard, bull elephant and two buffalo bulls. All went well, including stopping a charge from the ele, which was not wounded at the time he charged. The bull was the one we were trying to take anyway, so shooting him wasn't a problem.

If the client is competent, I see no problem with hunting DG on a first safari.

EDIT: I'll add that on my first hunt, I probably shot my .458 close to 100 times, testing out handloads and getting familiar with shooting that rifle before I left for Zim. My first 3 hunts were all DG hunts, no reason not to hunt those animals as long as you practice with your rifles from practical positions and get in good enough shape to walk AND... you're competent.

How people, or ones self, react when face to face and on foot in front of a dangerous animal is pretty unpredictable. I am VERY uncomfortable when standing at the edge of a precipice, but my daughter who rock climbs seems to be oblivious to the danger.

On the other hand, night dives to 90 feet in the Red Sea and turning off the dive light turns me on.

I'll bet that most hunters on safari in Africa are more worried about what the PH will think of them then what might be going on in the mind of the buff or the elephant.

What I'm saying is, I don't think you can generalize about how anybody reacts to danger, or even perceived danger. It's pretty much between you and yourself.

I can only speak for myself, but believe the 2 pg hunts I took before my dg hunt prepared me for my dg hunt & gave me a chance to test my dg rifle & myself before hand.
Apparently there are those like DLS that made a dg hunt first & everything goes well.
My heart goes out to not only Mr. Lewis family, but also the client that wounded the buff, I can't imagine the feelings he must be having also.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I hope these thoughts do not cause a fire storm here.

I dont think your thoughts will cause a firestorm at all. That being said, I absolutely disagree with you.

We can all imagine how we react under pressure but until you are there........you just don't know......

And I would think even then each time is different.


.

DOJ,

Everybody's experiences may vary but I'm very glad I chose a buffalo hunt first. Having done some DG hunting and a few PG ranch hunts I don't see where one relates much to the other as far as the on the ground hunting goes. I think if I had taken a PG hunt in RSA, Namibia or Botswana first it would have been lots of fun but hardly preparatory for a DG hunt. The exception to that might be if I had bought a PG hunt in a DG area such as one of the big conservancies in Zimbabwe where you may bump any of the big 5 in their natural enviroment while stalking your kudu. Having said that though if you've already committed to a hunt in DG territory why not just do it.

I don't know if my sales offer a window into what most people want in a first safari but I sell probably 5 to 1 DG hunts over PG hunts in Africa. To me personally that means that a lot of folks do not think a PG hunt is necessary to prepare them for DG or my people don't like my PG offerings.

Mark

Given this post and a similar one regarding "suitability", what's next, Boot Camp for clients? nonsense. It's a PHs/Outfitter's job to observe a client's limitations and flex to his capabilities, or be up front and tell them, "I'm sorry, I can't take your 25K deposit because I see you are a Fatass and you haven't brought proof that you can shoot." Let me know when that happens and we'll discuss further...

I think that we as hunters just need to do a serious "gut check" before we sign up for ANY adventure. Are we going just because it is cool and our friends will be impressed, or because we have always dreamed of hunting this species? Do we really have the level of mental/physical toughness necessary to undertake this hunt? Is our level of familiarity/skill with a suitable weapon at a high level? These types of questions can only be answered after some solemn contemplation and not standing in a booth on the floor of the SCI convention. Only YOU know what you are really ready for. Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
I think that we as hunters just need to do a serious "gut check" before we sign up for ANY adventure. Are we going just because it is cool and our friends will be impressed, or because we have always dreamed of hunting this species? Do we really have the level of mental/physical toughness necessary to undertake this hunt? Is our level of familiarity/skill with a suitable weapon at a high level? These types of questions can only be answered by some solemn contemplation and not standing in a booth on the floor of the SCI convention. Only YOU know what you are really ready for. Good Luck!

+1 on that. Well said.

It seems that when tragedy strikes some folks want to assign blame, without all of the data or facts. Many times, in fact, the tragic incident is a series of choices that result in a bad outcome but folks just want to be angry at someone not something.

All of us are "green horns" with whatever we start doing, be it DG, flying airplanes, driving cars. Everyone makes mistakes and sometimes the outcome is death or injury. That is the way of things.

I've read, listened to and talked with some experts in the field of DG hunting, some of them were famous PH's, some were just very, very experienced hunters. Every single one of them was able to describe at least one incident where they had made a serious error in judgement or action and were just lucky they or others weren't maimed or killed. JUST LUCKY.

I recently took a shot at a bushbuck, it was the longest shot I ever had taken at game. My PH had confidence I could make it, and he was the one that would have to go into the brush if I wounded it. Those were the rules. That was on my mind as I moved into position to take that shot, it wasn't "Gee, I get a shot at a bushbuck finally". I fired the rifle, the bushbuck disappeared, I was terrified I had tanked the shot. When the PH said, calmly, "He's down." The relief was huge. If I had gut shot the animal he would have done his job and I would have followed his instructions. That is how it is played. And you all know how dangerous these little antelope are when wounded.

Everyone screws up.

Let's just grieve the loss of a very fine man, support his wife and family and look at ourselves. I KNOW if he were to contribute to this thread he would start listing what he would have done differently. The pointing fingers is tiring. I know there is a client and an apprentice PH somewhere that are carrying a huge burden right now, bigger than most of the rest of us.

I have finally been able to go hunting in Africa. Buffalo in Mozambique. I am not going to pay that much money and airfare and time to hunt plains game. Don't get me wrong I will probably hunt plains game on the hunt. But the big stuff is really all I am interested in and if one prepares properly, shoots alot, is in shape and in the proper mindset with a competent outfit I see no propblem other than old fashioned "bad luck". The next hunt will be a poor mans elephant hunt

Tragic events for sure as I am sure people I am hunting with may have known the individual. Sounds like a bad chain of events with the worst outcome. I am trying to learn from this event and prevent a similar situation in Oct.

Condolences to the family they are the ones who will suffer. I know from other tragedies

quote:

The next hunt will be a poor mans elephant hunt

What would that be?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

The next hunt will be a poor mans elephant hunt

What would that be?

lol never heard that before either

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

The next hunt will be a poor mans elephant hunt

What would that be?

Tuskless what else for a poor man?

GS55, I feel so sorry for you. If you think hunting DG is be all and end all in African hunting you have missed sooo much GOOD HUNTING. The assumption on my part is you want to hunt and not fulfill an ego trip.

If anyone thinks that going on a PG hunt prepares them for a DG hunt they are mistaken. If you weren't ready before you surely aren't ready just because you went on one or two PG hunts. Proficiency in hunting, gun handling, gun shooting, mental preparedness, etc. is not something that is obtained overnight or from a book. All hunting and gun usage of course makes for a better hunter but a week does not equate to being ready.

DOJ,

I couldn't disagree with you more!

Disagree on the need for an exclusive AFRICAN PG hunt prior to returning for a DG hunt. Too many examples to list here. OK, here's one. What if a guy has hunted Brown Bear on Kodiak Island prior to Africa. Does he still have to do the RSA package hunt of a Kudu, Gemsbok, Impala, Warthog, and Zebra, go back home, then rebook to go back for a Buffalo on his second trip? Etc, Etc, Etc!!

Disagree on your attitude toward gunslinger55. Some of us see the little stuff as secondary with DG being the main attraction of Africa. Don't get me wrong, I like the little ones also and realize hunting for them exclusively is a challenging hunt. But I can hunt rabbits in my back yard and as fun as they are, it ain't elephant hunting! Never will be!

Sorry!

My point was most, not all, first time hunters to Africa get caught up in the "exotic" hunt frame of mind. To me hunting the DG is more of a macho thing than a true hunting thing, but that is JMO. The only DG hunt that excites me is Mr Spots.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
To me hunting the DG is more of a macho thing than a true hunting thing

Wow! I was going to comment but I think I'll just let that one stand on it's own!

Todd, how many guys do you hear bragging "I shot DG (your choice of animial) it was etc etc..

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
The tragic death of Mr Lewis (in my opinion) points out the idea of doing a DG hunt on ones first african hunt is not a good idea. One or two PG hunts seasons one to the "Safari" feel.

The first time hunt one is caught up in the glamor of the hunt not the reality of the hunt. One learns that all game in Africa can be dangerous i e a wounded bushbuck or other PG. African animals cling to life more so than most other game of the world.

I disagree.

PG hunting in Africa prepares you for DG hunting about as much as
driving a car on the street prepares you for racing on a track;
tooling around on a scooter prepares you for jumps in motocross or supercross;
riding up and down the sidewalk on your Schwinn Lemon Peeler prepares you for Cat 1 road or Elite mountain bike racing;
etc.

In other words, not at all or at least no more so than hunting PG anywhere else in the world. And no I do not buy that African PG are any tougher or cling to life any more than similar animals in other parts of the world.

For those who want to go to Africa for PG as their first hunt - that is great. My good friend Frank went to Namibia for only PG and was thrilled for all of the reasons you've stated. BUT he had no interest and still has no interest in any DG. If he ever goes back, it will be for non DG.

To make a case that he is more prepared for DG than a person who has never been to Africa simply because he was there before is a spurious argument.

But that is my opinion and is worth no more than yours.

CCMDoc, I agree as to the opinion they are like *ss H*oles everyone has one. I will say, in the minds of most going to Africa to hunt gives one a different feeling than say an easterner going to say Wy or NM. Well it did to me at least.

As to your examples any person that has drive a car is more prepared than someone that has never driven a car and the same applies to the other examples. I have seen shows and read of people that have NEVER hunted and went to Africa to hunt DG not so much PG.

well ed - i have to agree with you. i really think people who jump to the top, so to speak, miss out on much of africas spirit

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
I don't think the "first time DG" aspect is as big a deal as a client who is not skilled enough to hunt DG in the first place.

On my first safari, I shot a leopard, bull elephant and two buffalo bulls. All went well, including stopping a charge from the ele, which was not wounded at the time he charged. The bull was the one we were trying to take anyway, so shooting him wasn't a problem.

If the client is competent, I see no problem with hunting DG on a first safari.

EDIT: I'll add that on my first hunt, I probably shot my .458 close to 100 times, testing out handloads and getting familiar with shooting that rifle before I left for Zim. My first 3 hunts were all DG hunts, no reason not to hunt those animals as long as you practice with your rifles from practical positions and get in good enough shape to walk AND... you're competent.

I agree. I've had two clients, (two different safaris) who never shot or killed an animal in their entire lives. They both did absolutely fine, and got their trophy buffalo. The other side of the coin, I've taken guys that have been on 20+ safaris and screwed up big time.

Let's consider the first time donor to a Memorial Fund that will provide 100% of the donations, hand delivered to Owains wife of 44 years in just 6 weeks.

Please, send a donation today! We can discuss other issues after we've taken care of Robbie Lewis.

I thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Todd, how many guys do you hear bragging "I shot DG (your choice of animial) it was etc etc..

Ever consider the possibility that they spoke of their hunt and what they hunted because they were relating how much fun they had? Not that they think it was the macho thing to do? I've never once heard any one I know that hunts DG make a comment about their hunt in the vein of machismo.

Honestly, you sound like some of the bunny huggers that object to hunting with the "Does it make you feel like a big man to kill some poor defenseless animal?" argument! I've hunted a fair amount of DG. Not nearly as much as many of the folks here on AR. I hope to be able to continue doing so for a long time. But I really can't remember ever feeling that hunting anything, including dangerous game, has ever made me feel cool or superior, or manly in any form or fashion. Quite the contrary.

Successfully concluding a hunt in terms of killing an animal, (I say it that way because I don't require to kill the animal to consider the hunt a success) usually is a humbling and retrospective event for me. I am appreciative for the opportunity to experience life in our true role as predators. Compared to the camera hunters, I see it like the difference between the person that books a trip to Europe and never gets off the tour buss complete with a guide who takes the group to ever tourist vendor and sight and the guy who finds a family in France that takes him in for a month, allowing him to really see what life is like in that country by taking part in shopping and preparing the local meals, immersing himself in the culture, speaking the language, etc. Hunting, to me, just provides a more rich and rewarding experience.

Machismo? I'm sorry but I just don't see how that fits in with what I get out of hunting. And I like hunting the dangerous stuff because I find it more exciting and fun. Not because I'm trying to impress anyone with how studly I think I am. Most of us get past that macho crap in our 20's. I certainly did!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
GS55, I feel so sorry for you. If you think hunting DG is be all and end all in African hunting you have missed sooo much GOOD HUNTING. The assumption on my part is you want to hunt and not fulfill an ego trip.

I live in the mountain western united states. I can hunt bear, lion, elk, deer, moose, sheep etc. almost year round. If I want to hunt deer I can do that alot cheaper an hour from my house. Or go to Alaska and spend far less. But on that note I think I am throwing in for Nyala, waterbuck and warthog or bushpig too. Just that Buff is the main attraction. It ain't ego my good man, it's hunting. I probably will never travel to africa without some member of DG on the menu. But that's just me

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
To me hunting the DG is more of a macho thing than a true hunting thing, but that is JMO. The only DG hunt that excites me is Mr Spots.

Could not disagree more

I don't go DG hunting for macho, I go for the experience of a lifetime. I also like that most PH's I have hunted with are great people to sit at the fire with after a day hunting. It doesn't hurt to be in a remote area that is more beautiful around the next corner than the last. The trophy for me is the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Given this post and a similar one regarding "suitability", what's next, Boot Camp for clients? nonsense. It's a PHs/Outfitter's job to observe a client's limitations and flex to his capabilities, or be up front and tell them, "I'm sorry, I can't take your 25K deposit because I see you are a Fatass and you haven't brought proof that you can shoot." Let me know when that happens and we'll discuss further...

Didn't Kai-Uwe Denker say almost exactly that to some old tub that wanted to hunt ele?

I'm just sayin'...

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Todd, how many guys do you hear bragging "I shot DG (your choice of animial) it was etc etc..

Define dangerous!! Is dangerous an animal that put you at peril? If so by far the most dangerous animal I have ever shot is a Bushbuck to date and he was hit hard by a .375 H&H with a full frontal chest shot at about 20 yards.

Frostbit, my thoughts were the commonly refered to DG i e the "dangerous 7". I agree a wounded bushbuck can be as dangerous and any animial.

To tell the truth I am sorry I even started this discussion.

Right now I am in discussion with Rich Elliot about 18 days in Ethopia and that is about as exciting as my ole heart can take, and also my wallet.

So if you are hunting DG, you are not hunting PG? If you are hunting PG no DG is going to stomp you?
So if a buff takes a dislike to you, you can say, "Excuse me Mr Buff, I am hunting PG so today I am off limits."

Everyone is different-different strokes for different folks. I had two plains game hunts under my belt before my first dangerous game safari. On my first DG safari I shot elephant, lion and cape buffalo. I appreciated the two prior PG safaris and the experiences that they had already given me in Africa. Although I didn't need the two PG safaris as a precursor to the DG safari, I believe that they prepared me to appreciate my first DG safari that much more. Since then I have shot a butt load of DG and PG over seven more safaris, and have truly enjoyed the "mixed" bags of both taken on each safari since then.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Right now I am in discussion with Rich Elliot about 18 days in Ethopia and that is about as exciting as my ole heart can take, and also my wallet.

I hear ya! Depending on how successful my upcoming 21 days are I could be looking at quite the bill. But, that's what I have worked so hard for and done without for, for a long time. Got to do it before the ole bod breaks down for good.

quote:

Originally posted by BigUglyMan:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Given this post and a similar one regarding "suitability", what's next, Boot Camp for clients? nonsense. It's a PHs/Outfitter's job to observe a client's limitations and flex to his capabilities, or be up front and tell them, "I'm sorry, I can't take your 25K deposit because I see you are a Fatass and you haven't brought proof that you can shoot." Let me know when that happens and we'll discuss further...

Didn't Kai-Uwe Denker say almost exactly that to some old tub that wanted to hunt ele?

I'm just sayin'...

I do hope you are lucky enough for your a-- to get old some day

No--just don't say

Go away till you grow up.

SSR

Very interesting thread!
A bunch of very thoughtful posts.

I'm planing my first trip for next year and right or wrong I assumed that I would be much more prepared for DG after a PG hunt or two. My thought are that I would get comfortable with all the details and planning.
I would get to know my outfitter and PH and test my skills. I was thinking I would try to book with the same team on my return to hunt buff and would be more confident after hunting with an outfit and PH on prior trips.

This is why I visit this site!
Both sides of so many issues are well represented.

Thanks to all

Now I am glad I started this discussion, if it helps even one prospective hunter. Good luck TANGLEWOOD, it is a great journey your are starting.

when i first started looking into booking my first safari i thought i would just go do a plains game hunt, and then go back again for DG. I knew all along i wanted to hunt buffalo. When i booked my hunt i booked for buffallo and pg. It will be first trip and i cant wait for the time to pass. The year after my hunt i will have three kids in private school and im not sure when i will be able to go back. So for met the dg on the first hunt made the most sense.