If two identical bullets have the same rotational velocity, but one has a higher longitudinal velocity, the one with the higher longitudinal velocity will travel farther. However, if you increase the rotational velocity of the faster bullet, you will use up a certain portion of the energy through increased surface friction and a certain portion of the kenetic energy keeping the bullet spinning. Therefore, a certain optimum rotational velocity verses longitudinal velocity will give the deepest penetration. The rotaional velocity imparted to the bullet is a function of its initial velocity, so a bullet started out faster will loose energy faster if both are fired from the same twist barrel. This explains why a bullet started slower will out-penetrate one started faster.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:

If you wanna smack around the ole ".45-70/cape buff ele" BS go for it! However making these disparaging remarks about Randy Garret is totally uncalled for. Besides, if you notice his current website, the only item he is promoting for elephant, cape buff, rhino, and hippo, is his exiter ammo with the hornady steel solid. Get a life....

Mad Dog

I don't see the remarks as being uncalled for when someone is publically advertising something that may get people seriously injured or killed. In such case I think they should be called on it publically. Especially in this case which in my opinion shows disregard to others peoples life just to make a few bucks. Its not the same as saying you like a certain T.V. show etc. Then you just do but in that case it won't get anyone killed.

quote:

Randy Garrett:

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s. [Emphasis added.].

Note that Garrett refers to the use of .458 caliber Hornady 500 grain solids and wet newspapers to test penetration.

In other words, Garrett claims that testing the penetration of the same bullet at three different velocities in the same medium, shows that increasing the velocity of that bullet in that medium reduces penetration.

Garrett doesn't say whether the same rifle was used for these tests, but let's assume for the sake of the scientific method that it was.

I don't know if anyone has ever tried to replicate the exact tests that Garrett refers to exactly. It may be impossible to do so, since he doesn't identify the rifle(s)[?] he used and since wet newspaper is a notoriously inconsistent medium (i.e., its resistance depends to a great extent on a number of variables, including the thickness and composition of the paper, how wet it is and how tightly it is packed).

But even assuming that such test results are valid, it is important to point out that Garrett goes seriously astray and falls victim to the fallacy of over-generalization.

quote:

Randy Garrett (again):

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. . . . Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Garrett generalizes from very particular data based on one bullet and one medium - to the broad and virtually unsupported claim that any .458 caliber bullet will penetrate less in any medium as its velocity is increased.

In that regard, note that 470 Mbogo tested the penetration of the .474 caliber GS Custom 560 grain solid at three different velocities in plywood.

470 Mbogo's test results support a conclusion that is diametrically opposite to Garrett's - BUT BOTH ARE BASED ON THE TESTING OF ONLY ONE BULLET (AND EACH TESTER USED A DIFFERENT BULLET) IN ONE MEDIUM (AND AGAIN EACH TESTER USED A DIFFERENT MEDIUM).

I tend to think that 470 Mbogo's tests are more reliable as a predictor of how bullets at varying velocities will penetrate big game - not the least because 470 Mbogo used a more consistent medium and, unlike Garrett's test results, 470 Mbogo's comport with the laws of physics and common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
If two identical bullets have the same rotational velocity, but one has a higher longitudinal velocity, the one with the higher longitudinal velocity will travel farther. However, if you increase the rotational velocity of the faster bullet, you will use up a certain portion of the energy through increased surface friction and a certain portion of the kenetic energy keeping the bullet spinning. Therefore, a certain optimum rotational velocity verses longitudinal velocity will give the deepest penetration. The rotaional velocity imparted to the bullet is a function of its initial velocity, so a bullet started out faster will loose energy faster if both are fired from the same twist barrel. This explains why a bullet started slower will out-penetrate one started faster.

I am the proud owner of a 45 70 1886 Winchester that I've used on one very nice and extremely huge bison. That being said, having been among them (buffalo and elephant) and having hunted both with the 458 Lott, I've gotta say I can't see any even close comparison. The Lott smacks SOOOO much harder (at both ends!) I have total faith in it, where I'd be SOOO leary of the 45-70 in the same circumstances.

Geeez; looks like I'm gunna have to take my factory loaded .38-55 (cuz it looks like a small .45-70 after a few beers, and if'n ya squint yur eyes)with big 173 gr. cast bullets; N' walk rite up, and plug one O'them big bull Elephants rite in the noggin! And all I need is a volunteer with a camera to get it all on film. . . .That'll show um! Any takers?
Screw it! Hold my beer. . . I'm goin in. . .

seems to me that if Mr. Garret's line of reasoning is correct, then the old English black powder nitro express cartridges were the epitomy of stopping power and the last 120 years of cartridge development were a waste of time.

Everything is relative. A simple lesson in penetration and ballistics concerning large flat nosed bullets,and surface tension.

While standing in water(river, lake, pond, or pool). Open your hand and bring it down on the surface of the water as fast as you can in a slapping motion. Your hand will stop as if hitting a hard, solid surface.

Now bring it down again, only slower. Your hand will penetrate the surface of the water much more easily, with less resistance. The palm of your hand is the bullet, the water is the flesh.

Simple physics...

To paraphrase Elmer Keith, A large slow bullet will penetrate better, than a large fast bullet.

A faster bullet creates a shock wave in front of it, when it impacts....and if the bullet is a flat-nose....the shock wave may be greatest (tho' penetration less so). So,too upon expansion. We see the results of that shock wave when we gut or butcher an animal....and the tissue destruction is FAR greater that what we might imagine from a small diameter projectile. This area of tissue destruction is greater from a fast bullet than from a slow one. Is not this tissue destruction paramount in "stopping" an animal (other than spine or brain shots)???
.....just pondering....

No-one has answered my earlier question. If bullet speed is everything for penetration, why are my 500gr Barnes Banded solids fired at full velocity from my 458Lott into a dirt bank 50 yards away...just barely beneath the surface...perhaps 2" of penetration. (My .45 Colt hardcast go a lot farther than this). Should'nt I need a pick and shovel to find these bullets? Surely, there must be some explanation for this. I think the higher the impact speed...the less.....ah heck, I don't know!

Woodrow, to help answer your question, yes you are correct. I have done bullet testing for years. The same forces the bullet puts on game is also put on the bullet. At a given point, the greater the velocity, the quicker the bullet stops. With some projectiles this is at about 1,500 FPS. Above about 2,000 FPS secondary waves occur thru tissue that we call hydro shock. The added shock also goes toward slowing a bullet. Imaging diving into a swimming pool. You body will penetrate several feet thru the water until it slows from falling to the point of simply being pulled down by gravity. Now if you we were shot into the same pool of water at a greatly increased velocity, your body will hit hard, make a huge splash that bounces up from the pool, and then stop just below the surface from the energy dispersed on your body, and even bounce upward a bit just before gravity takes over and pull you down. Same principle. These stupid tests shooting thru plywood are much different because it is a hard brittle object that does not obsorb the energy and push back on the bullet as a moisture filled animal. All that said, if I were going to shoot a dangerous, THICK SKINNED game animal, I would still want the added hydroshock that the .458 Lott delivers. They have lethargic nervious systems that will soak up lot's of energy. The slower .45-70 bullet may penetrate, but will only leave a given dia. hole without the extreme shock damage that the Lott, or something in the same class will. I do find it irritating that the high velocity, magnum crew seems to be blinded to the point of discounting testing by others that may prove their costly, hard recoiling, phallic symbal, rifles are un-needed. I give them their due, but I doubt many of these folks have even tried a hot loaded .45-70 on anything. The .45-70 will not have a dramatic effect on a game animal, but it will put a nice hole thru them and take out the machinery. You just have to put it in the right place and take out the right machinery. But remember- Nothing short of a .458 Lott can kill a Buffalo, and the earth is flat!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Gentlemen! Will you never learn?

I will walk you through the science behind the slower is better FACTS. Yes, FACT. Not theory. I will only do this once, so please try to keep up.

Bullets, you see, have a finite amount of energy stored in them. We will use a 500 grain bullet as an example.

Now, a 500 grain bullet only has so much energy to expend. Do you want to expend all of that energy "sprinting" to the target or do you want that bullet to reach the target with enough energy to continue its work?

Shoot a 500 grain bullet at 3000 feet per second. It gets there fast. But it is also mighty tired when it reaches its destination. Shoot one at 1500 feet per second, and it has has TWICE (3000/1500=2) the remaining energy to do its work.

Now the 500 grain bullet fired at 3000 fps will slow down fast - it needs a rest! But the 500 grain bullet at half that velocity can continue driving through the target AT THE SAME VELOCITY!!! Because??? Come on...because it is not tired!

You run 200 yards at full speed and see what you've got left when you get there. Trot 200 yards and you have plenty of steam left to do what you went there to do in the first place.

Pushing bullets at higher velocities only tuckers them out.

I am frankly more than a little shocked, yes shocked, at the derisive comments here. With the learned members of this board, many of whom have advanced degrees in the sciences, one would think that they would open their eyes to this most simple and basic application of scientific method.

We mock what we do not understand. Well, no more mocking. Now you should all understand.

Any questions?



(PS-Still working on an answer to Judge G's question...)

I'm sorry, but that is just pure ,. Obviously your being sarcastic (I hope).

So we have the hand-slap in the tub test and the dirt bank test?

Hmmmm.

You could just drop the bullets in the tub and see which one goes to the bottom faster. Could do the same with hands but it is going to be painful.

Maybe we should throw the bullets at the elephants?

So I can save my powder and add fewer grains and get more penetration?

DWright,
How come cliff divers don't bounce off the water?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 338zmag:
So I can save my powder and add fewer grains and get more penetration?

DWright,
How come cliff divers don't bounce off the water?[/QUOTE

Well, that's because diving will not get you anywhere near the speed needed to get any of the action I was talking about. But then again, I doubt you are really that ignorant, so I assume you are simply making fun. However it does show the very basic (simple) mentality I was talking about when it comes to the high power, big bore pushers. It proves my point quite well really. Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I actually shot 45/70 level loads into a dead elephant along with 458wm loads. The 458wm loads far, far exceeded the 45/70 loads in penetration and byllet integrity. The 458 loads included 500gr round nose solids at 2145fps and 450gr flat nose solids at 2200fps.

The 45/70 level loads were both hard cast and softer 525 grain bullets. The soft bullets evaporated, the hard cast broke apart, but they penetrated about 28" even though they broke apart.

Not my first choice by a long shot, but I'd rather buff hunt with a 45/70 than sit in camp waiting for the ariline to find my rifles or ammo. (But not elephant!!!)

BTW, no one has come up with even a poor response to the Judge's point, because there is no response. Saeed's comment is regarding expanding bullets, not solids.

JPK

I still think some of you need to re-read my first post.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I still think some of you need to re-read my first post.

JPK

As I noted in my first post, they are not likely to change their minds regardless of what is posted, even real world experience on game.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
If two identical bullets have the same rotational velocity, but one has a higher longitudinal velocity, the one with the higher longitudinal velocity will travel farther. However, if you increase the rotational velocity of the faster bullet, you will use up a certain portion of the energy through increased surface friction and a certain portion of the kenetic energy keeping the bullet spinning. Therefore, a certain optimum rotational velocity verses longitudinal velocity will give the deepest penetration. The rotaional velocity imparted to the bullet is a function of its initial velocity, so a bullet started out faster will loose energy faster if both are fired from the same twist barrel. This explains why a bullet started slower will out-penetrate one started faster.

Now that is cool!

What I want to know is can you just roll that kind of stuff out or did you have to go thru two or more drafts?

Either way, well done!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

I still think some of you need to re-read my first post.

JPK

As I noted in my first post, they are not likely to change their minds regardless of what is posted, even real world experience on game.

Sad but true Charles.

BTW, how would I add a "free 500 Grains" item like yours?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Sad but true Charles.

BTW, how would I add a "free 500 Grains" item like yours?

JPK

Edit your signature to add the text and image. The image is from here -- just add it like any other picture.

Lets see if it worked.

JPK

Thank you Charles!

JPK

Wow, its retroactive!

Perfect!

JPK

Gentlemen,
sorry to change the subject,it's not very likely that I would be facing a charging elephant with a 45-70 in my hands anytime soon,but what is this free 500 grains all about?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
sorry to change the subject,it's not very likely that I would be facing a charging elephant with a 45-70 in my hands anytime soon,but what is this free 500 grains all about?

He was banned. Some of us would like to see that changed.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
sorry to change the subject,it's not very likely that I would be facing a charging elephant with a 45-70 in my hands anytime soon,but what is this free 500 grains all about?

He was banned. Some of us would like to see that changed.

To add to Charles post, he was one of the more experienced members here and always willing to help those who asked for it. An enthusiastic tester. Methodical in his field observations regarding penmetration, etc. Intolerant of BS or fakery though.

Remarkably, banned because of his participation in the Political Forum, where the gloves are supposed to be free to come off ... His views were opposite those of the forum's sponsor and moderators though.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Gentlemen,
sorry to change the subject,it's not very likely that I would be facing a charging elephant with a 45-70 in my hands anytime soon,but what is this free 500 grains all about?

He was banned. Some of us would like to see that changed.

To add to Charles post, he was one of the more experienced members here and always willing to help those who asked for it. An enthusiastic tester. Methodical in his field observations regarding penmetration, etc. Intolerant of BS or fakery though.

Remarkably, banned because of his participation in the Political Forum, where the gloves are supposed to be free to come off ... His views were opposite those of the forum's sponsor and moderators though.

JPK

+1 Dan is sorely missed. He would have much of a constructive nature to contribute to this discussion. He is one of the more experienced members on the entire forum. He's always one of the first guys that I turn to when I begin working up loads for a new big bore because he's usually "been there and done that".

Scott,

I actually did write it stream-of-conciousness. The trick is to mix just enough fact in with the fiction to make it sound plausible. In truth, rotational velocity will affect depth of penetration, but only sort of due to the factors I injected into my "scientific" explanation.

I was tempted to leave the emoticons out just to see how many fish I could hook. There are so many people who take themselves too seriously.

Dave

I’ve had the “discussion” with “True Believers” on a couple of occasions and learned how completely futile it is to try to inject any logic into the argument. Here are some of my favorite “Reasons it didn’t work the way I said it would.”

The projectile:

Wrong general shape: Too round or to flat.
Wrong mold: This can be wrong brand of mold, wrong number of cavities in mold, etc.
Wrong temperature of materials: Too hot, too cold or the weather is too hot or too cold.
Wrong mixture: Too much lead, not enough lead, too much alloy, wrong alloy, wrong order in which you mixed the alloy in and of course you either skimmed or stirred it too much or not enough.
And let’s not forget that you should never pour directly from a bottom pour pot into the mould or ever use a ladle or is it the other way around…

Tempering: You didn’t anneal it correctly or you didn’t drop it right out of the mold into cold water or if you did the water was too cold or to hot. This can get real complicated with a ritual of annealing; tempering and I suppose the application of “Pixie Dust” at some point…

Gas check: Never use one, always use one, you used the wrong brand, you used the wrong die to size it, or you should never size it.

Lube: You obviously used the wrong lube since only my secret mixture of beeswax and urine from a virgin aardvark collected on the night of the first new moon in a leap year along with, OH SH*T, sorry I can’t tell you any more or I’d have to kill you…

Brass:
Wrong brand: Winchester is bad, Remington OK, Starline better, Bertram is the best or is that the other way around…
Resizing: You used the wrong brand of die, you resized it too much, not enough or you shouldn’t resize it at all or only neck size or you need this custom die I had made that, well it makes all the difference…

Powder:
First off, ONLY black powder works. There is a profound difference between black powder brands the REAL best stuff comes from Switzerland and is made by elves in a secret cave in the Alps. IF you dare to use reduced load smokeless, especially that Trail Boss crap which was designed by the Anti-Christ, the bullet will be SOOO offended that it will not work…

Primers:
Ah ha!! I could have told you it wouldn’t work because it never works with whatever brand you are using! It only works with some primer made by a company you’ve never heard of from somewhere impossible to get access to that only sells primers in shipping container lots to FFL holders who live in Arkansas…

The Rifle:

Wrong manufacturer: If you think I’m kidding here go to Big Timber, Montana and visit the two “Sharps” rifle manufacturers there. They’re on the same street about rock throw distance apart and they’ll be happy to explain exactly why and how the other guy is WRONG!
This stuff only works with ORIGINAL rifles…

Wrong twist: I thought loud-n-boomer was dead serious because I’ve heard damn near the exact same argument put forth as fact by a True Believer. The twist on “modern” rifles is much to fast and “ruins” the penetration ability of the projectile. If you’re using a reproduction Sharps rifle the rifling is cut too deep, too shallow, wrong twist rate again, gain twist, not gain twist, too many lands, not enough lands, or whatever…

And lastly the Velocity argument:
1325 feet per second is PERFECT. Unless you happen to think 1560 fps is perfect but then you are WRONG! Because they’re RIGHT! And you’re a cotton-headed-niny-muggins, so there!!! Even if you get everything correct if you fire the “magic projectile” too fast (especially) or very rarely too slow, it just isn’t going to work. They have proof of this through rigorous testing by firing the projectile (through their rifle) at a test media that is acknowledged by anyone with half a brain to be the absolute perfect media to test the real effectiveness of bullets penetration ability. Generally this is something like old copies of the London Times (Yes, it makes a difference, the paper IS different.) No more than five years old but at least aged 18 months in a humidity controlled environment, or in their garage. The paper needs to be placed in cardboard boxes that are the exact size of the paper, really screws things up if the paper is folded more than once, and then soaked in a mixture of heavy water, Platte Valley Corn Whiskey and buffalo urine for no more than 4 days. At that point it needs to be drained slightly and carried to the truck by a group of scantily clad women, preferably virgins between the ages of 16 and 19 and then…

Or then again air density, temperature and humidity could be the deciding factor or factors; after all Africa in July is not the same as North Dakota in January when they did all their load development.

HunterMontana,

You ust have read the thread I posted after I shot those 45/70 level loads out of 458wm cases into the dead elephant's head.

The bullets, velocity specification (1500fps) and powder choice were a nice fellow's who asked me to try this for him since he didn't think he'd be getting to Africa any time soon.

Other lead bullet and 45/70 or 90, Guide Gun or Sharps rifle hard cores essentially chewed this guy a new one for more than half the reason's you cite. Bullets too soft, bullets too hard, wrong mix, wrong tempering...

Funny thing was, because of an extended 45/70 et al debate on this other forum, I offered to load and shoot up to five guys worth of bullets - and Brian Pierce's superultimatepenetrationoftwobuffaloandofftothehorizon combo of bullet and velocity. NO ONE ELSE BUT THIS FELLOW TOOK ME UP AND PROVIDED BULLETS!

Worse were some of the excuses why, some said they were sure I'd rig the test, some said they were sure that I was just looking to steal bullets, you name it there was an excuse.

Probably the funniest was that the test wasn't valid because the bullets were shot out of a 458wm case and barrel and not a 45/70 case and barrel, even if the velocity was as specified. Why? Its obvious isn't it? Everyone knows that the magic is in the whole of the combination of the bullets and the case and the rifle and the pixxy dust!

JPK

HELP!

I can't get my aardvark to pee in a cup...



Along those lines I hope she is a virgin....

JPK,

Actually I didn't catch that report since I generally avoid anything with 45/70 in the title like a virus, I'll look it up though.

No, my run-ins with the Pixie dust powdered bullet crowd come from a mixture of on-line "encounters" to first hand "in the flesh" experieinces. Livingston is only a little ways from the fueding "SharpeS" in Big Timber and a major writer for that interest area lives here in town. (Note: He's actually a very reasonable fellow but a bit short on hunting experience which he admits is not his thing.")

My all time favorite came on the 24 HR Campfire site with I think it was you and a number of PH's had a running battle with a True Believer from the Dakotas. The guy was arguing the merits of cast bullet etc on elephant with a group of hunters that had whacked, what a couple of hundred maybe thousand elephants and he was absolutely right and they were wrong.

He brought up a few of the nonsence reasons I listed and was relentless. He made the mistake of posting his website. WOW, the guy had shot maybe a dozen animals with his superweapon, mostly whitetail and of course the "mystic bull buffalo" (Thats AMERICAN BISON). Crap, one of my friends 16 year old has more field experience!

I had a Marlin Guide Gun for a bit, carries nice, recoil is vile with any load that doesn't have the velocity of a thrown rock. I killed an elk with it and a black bear, the results were idential to the elk and bear I've shot with my 44 revolver... I made the mistake of asking a True Believer a few questions at the range one day and found out I was doing everything wrong. His suggestions were great, if only literacy and education on my part hadn't spoiled the illusion.I sold the rifle and moved on to the present century.

Jim Manion,
WTF.
My bullets sprinted to the target but they had all shot there wads before they got there, I found them laying in the dirt in front of the backstop still panting.

Brian

You need to soak your bullets in Geritol, especially if they are older bullets. Recent studies also show that coating them with powdered viagra improves performance and penetration....

quote:

soaked in a mixture of heavy water, Platte Valley Corn Whiskey and buffalo urine for no more than 4 days

Is that buffalo cow urine or bull urine?....

WTB 1 gallon of pure buffalo urine....

Send PM...

quote:

Originally posted by woodmanDan:
Is that buffalo cow urine or bull urine?....

WTB 1 gallon of pure buffalo urine....

Send PM...

Careful what you ask for with this crew...

I would love to get HunterMontana and loud-n-boomer on adjacent bar stools, feed them a couple of beers and just sit back and listen to their gold plated bs!!

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
JPK,

Actually I didn't catch that report since I generally avoid anything with 45/70 in the title like a virus, I'll look it up though.

My all time favorite came on the 24 HR Campfire site with I think it was you and a number of PH's had a running battle with a True Believer from the Dakotas. The guy was arguing the merits of cast bullet etc on elephant with a group of hunters that had whacked, what a couple of hundred maybe thousand elephants and he was absolutely right and they were wrong.

He brought up a few of the nonsence reasons I listed and was relentless. He made the mistake of posting his website. WOW, the guy had shot maybe a dozen animals with his superweapon, mostly whitetail and of course the "mistic bull buffalo" (Thats AMERICAN BISON). Crap, one of my friends 16 year old has more field experience!

His suggestions were great, if only literacy and education on my part hadn't spoiled the illusion..

HunterMontana,

You probably were reading that thread since that was where I proposed the test to see who would put up or shut up. The guy your thinking of, is it possibly "Brent"?

Got a good laugh from your last line there!

BTW, I own a 45/70, fun gun! No elephant rifle!

JPK

JPK,
Yes, Brent sounds familiar. What a tool...

Anyway, I'm glad someone from that group took you up on your offer to "test" their bullets. I'm not surprised that your results were dismissed, truth is poison to a cherished illustion. Will they ever go to Africa and test their beliefs? No, too dangerous, much more dangerous than just risking their life, risking their faith.