If, indeed, the lower the velocity the greater the penetration why not just throw the cartridges at the animal instead of shooting them at him?


" Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70’s "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great. "

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm

Pardon my outburst, but haven't we WORN this one out already!!!!

JW out

This is true to some extent . If you are shooting jacketed bullets. At higher velocities a jacketed bullet can expand more rapidly and possibly reduce penetration. However if you are using solids or as is popular if the 45/70 hard cast lead loads run them as fast as you can. You are going to get little if any expansion to reduce penetration.

This makes me want to take my Guide gun...rather than my 450 NE double. More rounds, very fast and still a .45 bullet. Should be fine for elephant and buff.

Jeff...don't get it....has this been looked into?

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/beast.asp

I'd take this to Africa - and Randy Garrett is no "idiot" and I advise you, Adrook to do some homework on penetration (no pun intended).

quote:

Originally posted by Nanook 450:
http://www.brockmansrifles.com/beast.asp

I'd take this to Africa - and Randy Garrett is no "idiot" and I advise you, Adrook to do some homework on penetration (no pun intended).

I might agree if buffalo and elephant were made of wet newspaper instead of flesh and bone.

You may be correct that idiot is an inaccurate description; shyster, charlatan, and snake oil salesman are all more fitting.

quote:

Originally posted by Nanook 450:
http://www.brockmansrifles.com/beast.asp

I'd take this to Africa - and Randy Garrett is no "idiot" and I advise you, Adrook to do some homework on penetration (no pun intended).

Garret isn't an idiot but there is an awful lot of PT Barnum in him.

It is curious as to why no one else can match his results in penetration.

100% spot on...jorge

The Billy Mays of the shooting world.

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
The Billy Mays of the shooting world.

I think that these wet newspaper penetration tests are the ballistic equivalent of when the huckster on TV cuts a steel bar and a leather shoe with a Ginsu knife and then cuts a tomato to show how sharp it still is.

Someone correct me, please.

Two identical, non-expanding bullets of the same diameter enter any medium, be it flesh, bone, wet newspaper or dog do-do, the first with a velocity of 1600 f.p.s. and the second at 2150 f.p.s..... sooner or later, the faster bullet will expend enough energy to slow to the same velocity as when the slower impacts the animal or poo-poo or The New York Times... right? But, the faster has expended that velocity by penetrating the medium and the slower is just striking the medium... so, to my simple mind, the faster bullet will react thereafter, just like the slower, except it has already penetrated however far it took to "slow down".

So, if a .458 Win Mag enters a buffalo at 2100 f.p.s, some distance inside the animal, it will become a .45/70 and then out penetrate itself.

Am I stupid, or is Randy Garret?

JudgeG, I believe the difference is Randy is trying to sell something and you are not. Adrian

Is it not true that his hammerhead solids took all of the big five without a hitch...several times? What more can be said? Dead is dead. Randy can't be too dumb...he is making a pretty good living doing what he loves to do...and how many of us can say that? Everything sold on this planet has a bit of "smoke and mirrors" added. One other thing...tell me why 500 grain Barnes solids shot from a 458Lott at top velocity fail to penetrate more than a few inches into an earthened bank at 50yds.? Should'nt I have to dig several feet for them? They go several feet thru an elephants head. HMMM, maybe Randy's theory has some merit? Maybe I will slow them down from 2250fps to 1700fps and see what happens.

This is an old discussion, and old argument and for Adrook, with his harsh approach to thinking through logical discussion with an open mind and a desire to learn, probaly won't get it, I have numerous e-mails from Randy, as he does not have the time, much less the desire to come and banter with the nay sayers, concering his ammunition quality or effectiveness, so I'm copying a couple for you old timers here, maybe you can read them before going off half cocked with a juvenile response:

From: Shelley Miller
To: inquiries@garrettcartridges.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: Penetration of 45 70 +P Hammerhead


Hello,

While sighting in my Marlin Guide gun for the upcoming hunting season I decide to see how your rounds would do on ballistic armor. I'm a State Trooper and along with my cub ( a new Trooper), who is a vet from the Iraq war, set up Level 3A body armor on a target stand 25 yards away, your 45-70 +P Super HardCast Hammerhead punched right through the vest with no problem. Commercial load from Remington was stopped (both flat and hollowpoint). We then set up a military "flak vest" same results. All I can say is "WOW!!!"

Thank You
Lincoln Miller

----- Original Message -----
From: KDooley101@aol.com
To: inquiries@garrettcartridges.com
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 5:40 AM
Subject: Elephant 45-70 Kevin Dooley


Just got back from Africa.
Your cartridges did the trick.
I took the elephant with too shots, the first of which went completely through his head and out the other side. People were amazed. Other then my PH who has hunted with me severl times and knows i hunt with the 45-70 double, others were worried about me taking the elephant with the 45-70 and it made for some very intresting discussions the night before the hunt. I showed everyone your bullets but they just did not have the faith. With The 2nd shoot the bull dropped in his tracks. We were at about 30 yards.
Also took a hippo and lots of plains game. The leopard never hit the bait, but will give that anothe try
Soon.
Talk to you soon. Once the video is edited and complete i will get a copy to you.
Kevin

“I have seen the tracks of this big boar in a draw only a couple hundred yards from my hunting camp off and on for over a year. When it has been handy I have baited strategic areas with corn but he was never seen. One morning about 45 minutes before sunrise, after a rain, I headed over to check the draw while my hunting buddy Rich Lucibella (publisher of S.W.A.T. Magazine) was cooking breakfast. I had looked outside and it just seemed too good, the wind would be in my face and the glow of a soon to rise sun would be at my back. I had grabbed up one of three guns in camp loaded with your 330-gr +P Long Hammerhead Ammo. Most of the time Rich and I both carry custom long cylinder Blackhawks, mine a Bowen and his a Gallagher, but this morning I hadn’t put my Bowen on yet and grabbed my Dave Clay custom takedown Marlin. This is the same gun pictured and discussed in the Guns & Ammo article on heavy 44 loads. As I approached the draw, I spooked five whitetail deer that naturally had to run into the draw. I knew these deer would alarm anything in the draw so I held my position for three to four minutes before proceeding. When I got where I could see where I needed to see in the draw (still a half hour before sun-up) the deer were level with me on the other side just browsing. This may have been a part of a whole lot of things gone right for the hogs undoing because as I watched the deer, the hog just appeared about seventy yards away. In an instant the front sight was on his shoulder and in another instant a Garrett 330-grainer was on its way (kind of like a Hallmark card: ”When you want to send the very best”). The 330-grainer hit him right on top of the front sight and away he went. I walked to where I thought he had been and on the light colored ground I could make out quality blood so I headed back to camp to get Rich and let him know what I was up to. When we got back to the blood trail twenty minutes later it was getting close enough to sun-up for pretty fair light. You would have to see the blood trail to believe it. This boar covered about 125-yards spraying blood three to five feet out of the off side on every bound. That is until he ran out of blood and fell over dead in a clearing. The shot had centered the near shoulder and exited just behind the off shoulder and coming out about three inches lower than the entrance (I was shooting somewhat downhill), the only bone hit were ribs on both sides. The bullet trashed both lungs and went thru the top of the heart. The picture of the heart isn’t real clear as to what happened but it is good evidence that this shape of bullet pulverizes flesh in front of it to a diameter of up to about three quarters of an inch. Folks that think this bullet shape just punches a 44 caliber hole need to quit looking at entrance and exit wounds in tough hides and study this picture. Even makes them bleed like nothing else except maybe a broadhead. If heavy bone is struck it will of course also shock the crap out of them and cause other complications but if you only hit meat the thru and thru core sample will make them bleed like nothing else.

This hogs was over 6-feet long nose to tail and would have weighed 350 plus. He didn’t have the longest teeth I have seen but maybe the thickest. Look at the picture and compare the thickness at the bottom of the lower teeth to the barrel on the rifle. It was no mistake having a rifle built specifically to shoot your 330-grainers. Please keep making them!”

Ashley Emerson (Ashley’s boar #5 taken with our 330-gr Long Hammerhead Ammo); personal letter, 5-06

Howdy Ken,

I saw your question on the forum and thought I'd forward this. However, you have probably already read this, so this may be of little help. What I find most interesting about the issue is that so many shooters champion a variety of convoluted theories about comparative penetration, yet do very little real-world testing. It is far easier to observe than explain, and since the issues are not of an overly complex nature, simply knowing what works is all that is needed. I'll leave it for those who wish to impress others to come up with an "impressive" explanation of the events. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer. I haven't read any explanation of these issues on the forum that wasn't both argumentative and, well, sometimes, down right laughable. The discussions are also remarkable for the important details that they omit. It reminds me a bit of ancient philosophers who would argue and "philosophize" about how many teeth a horse has in his mouth, as opposed to simply taking a look.

Best regards, Randy Garrett

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Serle" <t_serle@hotmail.com>
To: <inquiries@GarrettCartridges.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: BC Grizzly taken with 540 Grain Hammerhead


> Attached is a photo of my Grizzly bear taken in Northern BC on May 5/2006
> with a Marlin Guide Gun and your 540 grain Hammerhead ammo. The bullet
> hit
> him through the front of the chest, destroyed his vitals, and exited
> through
> the hind leg after breaking the leg bone, at a distance of 40 yards. He
> never took a step.
>
> Tyler Serle
>
> British Columbia
>
> ________________________

From: Randy Garrett
To: Tony Aeschliman
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:15 PM
Subject: Argintine water buffalo taken with Garrett 540-gr Hammerhead Ammmo


“Hunting in Argentina, I hit my water buffalo (~70 yds.), behind the right shoulder and it blew straight through exiting his left shoulder. He staggered and turned away from me. - I immediately popped him in the tush. As with my 1st shot the “Hammerhead” passed lengthwise through his body and exited his chest. - - “Game Over!” - - {Both 540-grain projectiles were last seen headed towards Patagonia in south Argentina.} Next year I plan to use your Garrett “Hammerheads” in Africa for Cape buffalo and Hippo.”

Bill Hackaday, Dunwoody, GA

"The bear (coastal grizzly) had been hit once with a 375 H&H, but wound not go down. When he turn and started running in the opposite direction I hit him in the rump with the 45-70 at about 120 yards. He went only about 30 yards more before stopping. When we skinned him we found the 420 gr Hammerhead had entered on his right side rump, passing though and destroying the pelvis. I recovered the bullet under the skin beyond the right front shoulder (full length penetration). The bear squared 9'6'' and had a 25 5/8" skull. Amazing penetration!"
Paul Lenmark, Boise, ID (coastal grizzly guide)

David Clay, Hamilton Bowen, Jim Brockman, all friends of Randy Garrett and others would appreciate your insult Adrook, however I'm certain, after reviewing some of your past posting, that you would not have the balls to argue face to face with any of these men. Keep up your bolt work (1,2,3,4 bang) and these old levers (1,2 bang) with at least six Garrett loads will be just fine.

This series of personal e-mails I've posted is from 2005 to the present and should take some of the nay sayers beyond wet newspaper medium as a penetration test. Merry Christmas.

Gee, I guess after reading that I'm with Gary, I'll just chuck my .458 Lott and my .450 Dakota and take my Guide Gun on my next buff hunt.

In all seriousness, the statement, "those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great", is an implicit endorsement of the round as a DG round (when using Garrett's ammo, of course) and is irresponsible at best and downright dishonest at worst.

I'm not afraid to argue the deficiencies of the 45-70 as a DG round with Randy Garrett or anyone else. It's not a DG round, plain and simple, and if one is going to hunt DG they owe it to the game animal, their PH, the trackers, and anyone else involved to use a proper cartridge that is appropriate for the job at hand.

quote:

So, if a .458 Win Mag enters a buffalo at 2100 f.p.s, some distance inside the animal, it will become a .45/70 and then out penetrate itself.

JudgG that line is classic!

Anybody killed by a game animal should have the caliber of their rifle engraved on their headstone.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but why worry with any of the calibers you guys are talking about, how damn many elephants and other crap did Bell kill with 6.5's and 7mm's???

I am thinking about buying a Blaser double, modify it for a single trigger, chamber it in 45-70, use the Peter Capstick sling method, and hire Mark Sullivan as my PH. I think I covered everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I am thinking about buying a Blaser double, modify it for a single trigger, chamber it in 45-70, use the Peter Capstick sling method, and hire Mark Sullivan as my PH. I think I covered everything.

You'll also need a beret and a monocle.

I have never hunted anything more dangerous than feral hogs. Question.....What is the difference in shooting a Cape buf at 200yds with a 458Lott, or a 45-70 at 30yds? If velocities are equal and bullets are of sound construction and penetration is thru and thru? The only thing I can come up with is the original design and intention of the cartridges. The 45-70 first came out as a military ctg in a relatively weak action. If being a military ctg is the factor then we need to eliminate 7x57, 30-06, 50BMG, 338Lapua and several others that have been successfully utilized by experienced riflemen for dangerous game. I suspect it was the original weak loadings. 45 Colt was also fairly weak when it first came out. One can almost, by reloading, reach 454Casull performance. There is at least one individual that has taken Big Five with a 454.
I suspect if the 45-70 had been created as powerful as many loads on the market today it would be accepted more.
I have a rifle chambered for a ctg created in 1912 originally loaded with cordite surely it must be inadequate as it is a 375 H&H. It is so much smaller in diameter and surely it doesn't have the TKO that a 45-70 does, at least not up close.
I like both and will at my descretion use them when I feel it necessary.
Roosevelt used a 405 and a 30-03. Perhaps they should be banned, as they are terribly inadequate.

Andy B

Use a ladder and get above the high grass and you can shoot them with a 275....Bell did. 'Course a Guide gun with them Hammerheads would kick to much...knock you right off that ladder.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

These arguments are always apples and oranges

The 45-70 is a fine cartridge, it is just not a Dangerous Game round. It obviously can kill dangerous game, however with todays cost, the chance of wounding an animal and it hurting a tracker or PH, it is not worth taking the risk of being undergunned. Garrets own website information does not meet the minimum energy required to be legal in some countries.

It also can not be compared to a Lott. Little dangerous game is shot at long distance, so comparing a 45-70 at 30 yards to a Lott at 200 is irrelevant, even though a Lott still has more energy at 200.

Garretts Info

500-GRAIN Hornady Copper-Clad Steel Jacketed Flatnose Solid at 1530-fps

FIRE ONLY IN MARLINS & WINCHESTERS
ENERGY: 2600 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 50; MEPLAT: .235"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-CUP MACP TRAJECTORY: +1.3" @ 50-YDS, ZERO @ 100-YDS, -6" @ 150-YDS



Hornady 458 Lott
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd
2300/5872 2028/4567 1777/3506


As once written in AR marshmellow vs DGR.

adrook

quote:

Gee, I guess after reading that I'm with Gary, I'll just chuck my .458 Lott and my .450 Dakota and take my Guide Gun on my next buff hunt.

Maybe you should take a .38 special. As slow as they go I'm sure the penetration is amazing.

Brett

Gentlemen this is all really quite simple. Just load your various .458's Lott's Dakotas Rigby's and such down to .45-70 levels. That way they will become more efficient killers of dangerous game at far lower chamber pressure than usual.

After all we wouldn't want to endanger ourselves with these overly high power .458's when hunting dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I am thinking about buying a Blaser double, modify it for a single trigger, chamber it in 45-70, use the Peter Capstick sling method, and hire Mark Sullivan as my PH. I think I covered everything.

....forgot the MatchKings.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I don't have a dog in this fight, but why worry with any of the calibers you guys are talking about, how damn many elephants and other crap did Bell kill with 6.5's and 7mm's???

.........And how many more did he wound and let get away, without saying anything about them in his hero books?

Gentlemen! Will you never learn?

I will walk you through the science behind the slower is better FACTS. Yes, FACT. Not theory. I will only do this once, so please try to keep up.

Bullets, you see, have a finite amount of energy stored in them. We will use a 500 grain bullet as an example.

Now, a 500 grain bullet only has so much energy to expend. Do you want to expend all of that energy "sprinting" to the target or do you want that bullet to reach the target with enough energy to continue its work?

Shoot a 500 grain bullet at 3000 feet per second. It gets there fast. But it is also mighty tired when it reaches its destination. Shoot one at 1500 feet per second, and it has has TWICE (3000/1500=2) the remaining energy to do its work.

Now the 500 grain bullet fired at 3000 fps will slow down fast - it needs a rest! But the 500 grain bullet at half that velocity can continue driving through the target AT THE SAME VELOCITY!!! Because??? Come on...because it is not tired!

You run 200 yards at full speed and see what you've got left when you get there. Trot 200 yards and you have plenty of steam left to do what you went there to do in the first place.

Pushing bullets at higher velocities only tuckers them out.

I am frankly more than a little shocked, yes shocked, at the derisive comments here. With the learned members of this board, many of whom have advanced degrees in the sciences, one would think that they would open their eyes to this most simple and basic application of scientific method.

We mock what we do not understand. Well, no more mocking. Now you should all understand.

Any questions?



(PS-Still working on an answer to Judge G's question...)

From Randy Garrett - 2004:

Penetration: the 45-70 & 458 Magnums

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

Randy Garrett
www.GarrettCartridges.com

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=9085

For more details, and a good discussion read the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
.........And how many more did he wound and let get away, without saying anything about them in his hero books?

Mac

You have a very good point!

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Someone correct me, please.

Two identical, non-expanding bullets of the same diameter enter any medium, be it flesh, bone, wet newspaper or dog do-do, the first with a velocity of 1600 f.p.s. and the second at 2150 f.p.s..... sooner or later, the faster bullet will expend enough energy to slow to the same velocity as when the slower impacts the animal or poo-poo or The New York Times... right? But, the faster has expended that velocity by penetrating the medium and the slower is just striking the medium... so, to my simple mind, the faster bullet will react thereafter, just like the slower, except it has already penetrated however far it took to "slow down".

So, if a .458 Win Mag enters a buffalo at 2100 f.p.s, some distance inside the animal, it will become a .45/70 and then out penetrate itself.

Am I stupid, or is Randy Garret?

The have been several accounts of folks claiming deeper penetration on elk by the 7 X 57 as opposed to the 7mm Rem Mag.....(was it Elmer Keith?)

In my own personal experience shooting carp in rivers the 44 special killed carp deeper in the water than the 44 magnum.....

I tried to understand these things and it seems we have some misconceptionsd about the relationship of penetration to velocity.

For starters I believe the resistance to penetration is not linear but proportional to the square of the velocity.....therefore it's easy to believe that doubling the velocity will not equal a doubling of penetration and in most terms folks are inclined to think in terms of linear.

I also think that if penetration is not linear to velocity then it must be parabolic......and I'm not at all convinced that is true as well.

Lets try this description:

A 500 grain solid will penetrate (lets say) three feet at 3,000 FPS.......and at 2500 FPS it may actually penetrate the same or more!!!

This isn't to say that at 2,000 FPS the penetration will again be the same or more..... as it may now be dramatically reduced and smewhat of a linear relationship going down the velocity scale from there!

But lets go back up the scale to say....4,000 FPS (some recoil now!!!!) We might actually see penetration go way up to say 6 feet or more.

The numbers are guessed at random here to convey the concept.....and the concept is that the relationship may in fact be not linear.....and not even quadratic......but cubic and then we start making sense out of these issues.....

From reading the threads posted here by a large number of posters it seems that the apex of the common curve is at about 2300-2400 FPS.....going faster don't seem to help.....and going slower don't usually make them happy either.....but going a little slower sure seems to work.....check out the 2,000 FPS loads some folks use here.

I'm convinced that the relationship of penetration to velocity isn't at all linear as we like to imagine.....give it some thought!

Gentlemen,

I cannot make any comments on cast bullets, but, after having been using Barnes X bullets - 375 caliber, 300 grains - for a number of years on buffalo, we noticed that we got the best penetration at around 2700 fps.

We noticed this same fact with our own Walterhog bullets, which are lathe turned with a hollow point.

We then thought of running blind tests using sand and wood panels.

We ran the tests with the help of Roy Vincent, a well known PH with many years of experience both as a PH, gunmsith and a very knowledgeable in ballistics.

Our tests confirmed what we have found in the field. That best penetration, with the above mentioned bullets, occurred at around 2700 fps.

Faster and slower speeds had less penetration.

We currently use loads that give us between 2650-2800 fps in our 375/404 rifles. Depending on barell length, with the same load.

We also found that we can control the amnount of penetration by altering the diameter and depth of the hollow point we drill in the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Question.....What is the difference in shooting a Cape buf at 200yds with a 458Lott, or a 45-70 at 30yds?

You would have 170 more yards to finish him off.

If you look at the ballistic tests below note what happens to the permanent wound cavity above 2000fps.
Even though the tests are with different bore firearms a pattern is consistent.

http://www.firearmstactical.co...0Wound%20Profile.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.co...%20Foster%20Slug.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.co...-30%20Winchester.jpg
http://www.firearmstactical.co...308%20Winchester.jpg 891m/s = 2923fps

Ballistic gelatin tests indicate below roughly 2000fps a bullet punches a bullet diameter hole but above 2000fps the permanent wound cavity really starts to grow.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

I cannot make any comments on cast bullets, but, after having been using Barnes X bullets - 375 caliber, 300 grains - for a number of years on buffalo, we noticed that we got the best penetration at around 2700 fps.

We noticed this same fact with our own Walterhog bullets, which are lathe turned with a hollow point.

We then thought of running blind tests using sand and wood panels.

We ran the tests with the help of Roy Vincent, a well known PH with many years of experience both as a PH, gunmsith and a very knowledgeable in ballistics.

Our tests confirmed what we have found in the field. That best penetration, with the above mentioned bullets, occurred at around 2700 fps.

Faster and slower speeds had less penetration.

We currently use loads that give us between 2650-2800 fps in our 375/404 rifles. Depending on barell length, with the same load.

We also found that we can control the amnount of penetration by altering the diameter and depth of the hollow point we drill in the bullets.

Now this makes the most sense to me....Each and every bullet (type, calibre & weight) probably has it's own preferred speed for it's optimum penetration. Variables will of course be determined by shooting distance as that effects the IMPACT speed, but a bit of give and take is required for this.

So, if Mr. Garret has a bullet that penetrates best at typical 45-70 speeds, then IN THAT CASE his theory is correct. But if he uses another bullet, which prefers a higher speed, then clearly another more suitable cartridge should be that particular bullet's launch platform?

adrook, did the pumpkin pie upset yer stomach, or did ya get tired of playing with yer christmas toys.....It's Christmas man! What ya doin beatin up on a VERY old article, and Garrett for? Geez....must be the winter doldrums or something.

If you wanna smack around the ole ".45-70/cape buff ele" BS go for it! However making these disparaging remarks about Randy Garret is totally uncalled for. Besides, if you notice his current website, the only item he is promoting for elephant, cape buff, rhino, and hippo, is his exiter ammo with the hornady steel solid. Get a life....

Mad Dog

Drinking beer makes you stronger and I can prove it.
I bought a barrel of beer on Monday and could barely roll it into the garage. By Friday, after just 5 days of drinking beer for 3 hours a day, I could lift that barrel over my head and toss it across the garage.
Case closed!

It sure is easy to get a rise out of people on this site!!!!!!!

I actually shot 45/70 level loads into a dead elephant along with 458wm loads. The 458wm loads far, far exceeded the 45/70 loads in penetration and byllet integrity. The 458 loads included 500gr round nose solids at 2145fps and 450gr flat nose solids at 2200fps.

The 45/70 level loads were both hard cast and softer 525 grain bullets. The soft bullets evaporated, the hard cast broke apart, but they penetrated about 28" even though they broke apart.

Not my first choice by a long shot, but I'd rather buff hunt with a 45/70 than sit in camp waiting for the ariline to find my rifles or ammo. (But not elephant!!!)

BTW, no one has come up with even a poor response to the Judge's point, because there is no response. Saeed's comment is regarding expanding bullets, not solids.

JPK

My take is Garrett is selling ammo. He gets outrageous money from lead loads that you can load yourself for 10% of the cost at home. There is no way I belive that the exact same bullet will penetrate better if slowed down, as long as the bullet its self holds together and is designed for the speed it is fired at-- as has been mentioned before. Secondly, I have questions on the intelligence of using lead bullets when better designs are available, for example northfork solids or barnes banded solids. This is all 45/70 cult stuff as a top notch solid can not be propery fired to acceptable velocity in the small 45/70 case.
So it seems we haave a group of people who want to justify the use of a 'pet' cartridge on DG.
If they took all the money they spent on this suppossed 'premium' ammo and put it toward a proper rifle they would be in good shape.
We also have someone who is making big bucks off these folks. I suppose it is capitalism at work. I own 2 45/70's. they are acceptable deer and black bear rifles. If I'm shooting larger game--- I'm using a more appropriate cartridge, for DG that means a 375, 458 or 470. Like the judge pointed out a 458 lott becomes a 45/70 at some point and out penetrates itself.

quote:

Drinking beer makes you stronger and I can prove it.
I bought a barrel of beer on Monday and could barely roll it into the garage. By Friday, after just 5 days of drinking beer for 3 hours a day, I could lift that barrel over my head and toss it across the garage.
Case closed!

Funny how that works huh! I have the same thing!