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One of Us |
. Here's and interesting one for discussion and I am quoting from a Zambian PH website offering ....
They go on to state that should the hunter then take a lion or leopard on the same hunt then "the management" may agree to waive the 50% missed shot fee ! I don't think I would sign up for that one ! And you ? . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | ||
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one of us |
Damn that's an added bit of pressure where one least needs it! I think I would skip too... even the best shot whiffs one now and again. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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One of Us |
Yeah that's a bit over the top... "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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One of Us |
+1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
If it's a clean miss, why charge the client? If blood is drawn but no cat recovered it should be full trophy fee. Btw, is this with a regular trophy fee? Or is this with a construction of a lower day rate and a much higher trophy fee when the hunt is successful? In the latter case I can see some reason for it. The PH works his ass off to get the client in a good position to harvest a cat, so should the client than also do his part of it? | |||
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I would not hunt with them. I think a wounded animal should count against your tag, but not a clean miss. | |||
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| one of us |
First safari in 1994 husband booked through Tony DaCosta on a "huntpak". All daily rates and trophy fees included in price. If no leopard was seen refund of trophy fee. If client missed or was too slow to shoot, no refund. Hunt was with Bundu Safaris Zimbabwe with Paul Jelonek. We had a great time and husband got a leopard. Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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| Administrator |
I will agree to pay the full too-by fee if I missed! Do I get it for free if I kill it? What an utterly stupid thing to do! I will go hunt with an honest profession, and leave these crooked amateurs alone. | |||
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| one of us |
I have seen some PHs charge the TF for an "opportunity" - in other words, if you are not fast enough to shoot, you might pay the TF anyway. Actually, I can sort of see this from the perspective of the PH, esp on a leopard. You are shooting off a rest, from a blind. The cat has stood around long enough for the PH to see its nuts. There really isn't an excuse for missing, unless I suppose the cat jumped a foot just as you were pulling the trigger... | |||
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This is do funny. Every single leopard I have shot - except one - my professional hunter was asking me to wait. I normally have what seems to be ages before I am allowed to shoot! The single exception was a leopard climbed up the tree, turned around and was about to disappear down. I shot him! Anyway, the people I hunt with never have conditions on when to shoot. | |||
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One of Us |
Right. One of my PH's told me of a client he had one time whose brother bought him a leopard hunt so that he'd come along on safari with him. I know how hard this PH works to get hunters their cat as I hunted with him for leopard in 2011. Anyway, this guy missed a cat in the tree from a blind, no more than 40 yards away. Not only that, he missed another one on a different bait a few days later. This PH said the guy told him on the way to the airport after the hunt was over that he missed both times on purpose as he really didn't want to kill a cat, he just wanted to do the hunt. In this case, the hunter acted in bad faith. An extreme case for sure and something I doubt happens very often, but what do you think? Was the outfitter entitled to the trophy fee as an opportunity fee? He got the guy on a cat twice. Not only onto a cat, but onto the RIGHT cat, evidenced by giving the client the go ahead to shoot. I'm not sure I'd have an issue with the policy of 1/2 trophy fee upon a miss concerning leopard as AAZW said above, you are going to be close, shooting from a rest, and not rushed. | |||
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| One of Us |
Whenever I encounter a situation like this, I try to equate it to something I may be familiar with on a routine basis. To me, the Outfitter should charge whatever it takes to pay the bills - labor, fuel, vehicles, food, etc. (with a reasonable markup). And Trophy fees are what pays for the "wholesale" cost of quotas - and profits. This seems to my pea brain the "Wal-Mart" model. So if I go into Wal Mart and pick up an item off the shelf, then decide I don't want it and put it back, do I have to pay a fee? If I order an item online and after I receive it, I suffer buyer's remorse and decide to send it back, I expect to pay a "restocking fee" to cover the cost of labor, materials and shipping - but I wouldn't do business with someone who charges me a 50% restocking fee unless the initial cost was dirt cheap to begin with. | |||
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| One of Us |
Two options. 1. Hunt with someone else. 2. PH pays the hunter half the daily rate if no shootable cat shows up. Best option - hunt with someone who really knows what they are doing and how to treat a customer. | |||
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| one of us |
I guess this depends on the TF and daily rates, but I would not opine the PH was cheezy if he charged a TF to guy who missed a leopard twice. At some point we as hunters have to fulfill our end of the deal. | |||
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| Administrator |
So are we going to get every professional hunter to charge clients for any animal missed twice?? | |||
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One of Us |
Consider this: If a hunter shoots at a cat from a blind and misses, he has just educated the cat and made him more difficult to hunt on future occasions. But I would never agree, under any circumstances, to pay a trophy fee for a missed shot. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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| One of Us |
Full TF to be paid for a kill or wounded/lost animal. The rest, whether it is a lost opportunity due to being too slow or clean miss and demand any form of payment is utter BS! Reading in between the lines is it to say that this clown of an outfitter or PH is not letting the client have a second opportunity on the same cat or other so that he can apply the 50% penalty? This is the kind of scenario which emerges when full TFs are paid up front and the refund which is declared in the event the animal is not taken, thus showing the true colours of the person with whom you are doing business. | |||
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| One of Us |
Totally asinine IMO. Misses unfortunately are part of hunting. I have never seen an outfitter refund half of the daily rate if no shootable animals were encountered. You really do need to read and understand the contract and if it isn’t in writing, then it is not binding. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Fulvio: How many clients have you had miss a leopard? Any? I suppose anything can happen, like you knock the sticks with your foot right when you pull the trigger, or your trigger is adjusted so light it goes off when you take it off safe with your finger touching the trigger, but I would be interested in how many flat out miss without "extenuating circumstances." | |||
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| Administrator |
It really is surprising how many people miss leopards in from blind. I have heard quite a number of stories. | |||
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| One of Us |
Missing the point really. I think this outfitter's 1/2 TF for a miss probably comes from some unsavory experience or experiences. Possibly something like the one I described as related from the PH I hunted with. Maybe a simple matter of having a few clients miss after putting in all the work to get the right cat in the tree. A leopard, the right leopard, from a rest, from a close range blind, mostly stationary while feeding, is something completely different from say a buffalo or plains game. The cat is much more labor intensive to get into position. Not saying the 1/2 trophy fee upon a miss is a good policy. Certainly not saying that policy should be applied across the board to other animals sought after on safari. Just saying I can see why an outfitter might come to that position. From my limited experience on leopard hunts, being a total of 3, I don't think that policy would put me off. Just my personal opinion. | |||
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| One of Us |
That waiting and being a bit too fancy nearly cost me last time. I get having to wait for the green light. It does not upset me. But when I am ready to shoot, I need to shoot. The waiting allows the brain too much time to screw up. In a paradoxical way I feel rushed. But I am use to seeing a deer or turkey at 15 feet, throwing up, and shooting almost in one motion. | |||
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One of Us |
I think this was discussed a few years ago, but they were charging 100% TF on missed cats saying the cat would be bait shy on a missed shot. I wouldn't book with anyone that charged without blood on the ground, but kind of see where they are coming from. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have never had a client totally miss a shot on Leopard though there have been a few badly shot ones that required undivided attention and never lost any as being wounded and lost. My scoresheet for Leopard remains untarnished at 100% success.  I can only recall one particular episode where the client totally missed a Lion broadside at 40 meters using a .470 with open sights due to a sudden bout of "buck fever" or in this case, "feline fever". | |||
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| one of us |
A miss caused by your foot hitting the sticks or some other weird thing would certainly be tough to swallow if charged half a trophy fee. But as Todd pointing out, I think the frustration of PHs sometimes must be off the charts...I was in a camp in the Selous and I overheard a PH ask my PH "What am I supposed to do? This guy missed a hippo out of the water at 40 yards?" | |||
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| one of us |
Folks, Please understand that this 50% TF for a miss on a cat is not a Zambia-wide fee. I've never heard of it there. It must be just this particular operator's fee. I do have an operator in Namibia that charges the whole trophy fee if you miss. His theory is once he has enticed a big mature cat to bait, it presents a good shot opportunity and you miss he has earned his TF. He's just not open to other view points. Fortunately his success rate is very high for Namibia and everybody knows the score going in. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| Administrator |
The whole idea of charging for miss is totally unacceptable. | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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| Administrator |
And while we are at it, how about not having to pay your daily rate if no shootable animal is seen? How many times have people gone on a lion, leopard, elephant, buffalo etc hunt and never saw an animal on their hunts? | |||
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| one of us |
This is not only greed but what I call over control. | |||
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One of Us |
Hence the two tier pricing. My hunters pay on success. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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| One of Us |
This is ^^^^ is similar to what I was thinking! | |||
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| One of Us |
If I were a PH, I would be more apt to charge extra for follow-up on wounded DG. LOL That is were they really perform a service! A few years back, I was at the Sportsman's Expo in Denver. They had one outfitter that charged you the trophy fee if you have a shot at a species you booked for, and don't take it. He is not getting a penny of my money. The real problem with charging for misses, is that the client may not be able to see the animal as clearly as the PH. I have stood and stared through my binos for 15 minutes trying to spot a group of buffalo, while my PH is calmly assessing the horn length. If I didn't know better, I would have thought they were putting me on, and just pretending there were buff in thicket. As far as African safaris, the prices are high enough as they are. Start adding one extra charges for every little thing and you will kill of the industry IMO. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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| one of us |
Lots of leopards are missed at night and/or wounded. One PH was talking about going 100% on leopards one year (8 cats) but he did not mention that only about 4 went in the salt .. others were missed or wounded and lost. On one cat, it was on a branch facing the blind and so offered only that frontal shot. And then he 'yells' at the hunter, 'Shoot ! Shoot! Shoot!' and the poor flustered person pulls the trigger and the wounded leopard could not be found that next day. I blame the guide on that one. Two hunters of great experience that I have shared a camp with both missed leopards from the blind at night. Can be done, quite easily, really .. it ain't a kudu. | |||
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| One of Us |
Words of wisdom. ^^^ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| Administrator |
Not strictly true. Sure AFRICAN safaris are expensive, but I don’t see anywhere else one can got such an incredibly satisfying hunt. The stupid idiots who put all these silly add on should suffer, amend their ways, or go out of business. Reminds me of a South African manning a booth at a hunting show. I asked him the price of different animals, and if the price remains the same should a hunter wish to shoot more than from one species. His answer was “you are only allowed to shoot one of each! Don’t you realize how valuable animals are? Why would you want to shoot more than one?” This is coming from someone representing a farm! I went to hunt with someone else, who offered me lower prices if I shot more animals!  | |||
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