This is a cross-post from the Long Range forum but I thought it might be better tended here in this forum with more AR activity.

Any of you guys have and are shooting some long range AR pattern rifles that you like and can recommend?

For me it would mostly be for shooting paper out to 500 yards, but also for varmints out at 300 to maybe 500 as well. I have been looking at some builds, as well as some complete rifles from suppliers like LaRue, whose products I really like.

Sometime soon I am going to choose and purchase a new and a bit different kind of rifle. Ones I had thought are either a Sharps blackpowder, or an upgraded lever gun, or a long range AR platform rifle.

I can wait a while on the Sharps as I might get some other shop space built and then I can add some lead work space in to the reloading set up. I have lever rifles already. And I have just regular AR-15 rifles too.

A buddy of mine bought a built target gun in 260 Remington and I want to shoot with him some at 400 and 500 yards. But I would like a semi- auto and in 223 as I am already all set up for that but would need to add in some 77grain match style loading for long range shooting at paper and metallic targets. I would also be able to use the long range AR for some coyotes and crows and that kind of thing. Just for fun.

Do you have any set ups and rifles that you like? From LaRue or Bushmaster or from DPMS etc or from a custom builder. What kind of accuracy and range are you getting and what kind of mods do you recommend?

And any rough idea on price if you care to share that information. The LaRue 5.56 OBR runs in at about $2000 without the optics, but it is pretty well set up too.

Thanks.

You need to get aleast 1n8 twist to stablize the larger bullets. I don;t own a 556 but all my research says what youy want to do is well with in the limits of the 556. I do plan on building one to shoot Ground hogs with. Good luck.

If you're not afraid to spend that kind of money on an AR another one you missed is Les Baer. He guarantees his rifles to shoot certain size groups.

mdvjr - Yes the barrel I am looking at are 1 - 8 twists for the heavier bullets. My AR's now have 1 -9 but mostly I shoot the 55gr from them but they are tack drivers with a good load and bullet.


SJ - Yes that is another good builder and thanks for reminding me. I did look at some other varmint uppers from my x-post over in the Long Range Forum that I had forget about from guys like White Oak . I was thinking of a complete rifle though.

Thanks guys.

Seriously, LARUE is an excellent machinist. But custome builder?? Maybe gettign there, but not on par with NOVESKE.

If you are looking for serious accuracy and reliability, seek John Noveske. One instance where you get what you pay for.

I'm a big fam of LMT. Their 308 is excellent. But it's not gonna drive tacks like NOVESKE's do. I feel the same about LARUE...not intending to bach them at all. Excellemt machining. But total package for accuracy is Noveske.

From what I've heard CMT makes Noveske's AR 15 receivers. If that's true you're suckered out of your high dollar money because that means you could buy the parts, buy his barrel if you with, and if assembled correctly be a just as good rifle as his possibly even better. And I mean "know" how to assemble them correctly. Kind of like carburetors boys. Just about any shade tree mechanic can clean one and rebuilt it, but build it specs and tune it correctly is a step above a shade tree mechanic. The same with building an AR. After all its just a lego set rifle and just about anyone can put them together, but like I said to do it 100 percent correctly and knowing how and why of everything on it is an entirely different matter. I'm not bashing Noveske and I'm not bashing the amateur builders here among us. After all one has to start somewhere. Noveske and Les Baer, JP, and others are way way too expensive. Now some guarantee a degree of accuracy like Les Baer. By the CMT is one of the oldest AR parts manufacturers in the business. That's were most all the parts for the early Colts came from. I'm not sure if Colt is still getting their receivers and other parts from them or not. CMT makes receivers for many AR brands.

BISCUT - Yes thanks for the reminder. I did not think of them but I had looked at the Noveske barrels and uppers before .

While not to thump anyone I called Rainer a couple of times who handled some of that. Heck they acted like they did not even have the time to talk or to take an order, and they did not have it and did not know when they were going to get it and I was lucky to even have them talk to me. I know all of these guys are busy, and have a bad day sometimes so no harm or foul. I did call back and it said leave a message and I did . No one called back. But no matter - I did not know I could go straight to Noveske either.

SmokinJ - And I agree that I want a complete built rifle, not parts. Of course one thing a custom builder should do is to insure that all parts of the build are up to the overall quality of the whole package. If that requires fitting, machining, etc. As you suggest if I am paying a premium , then I want a premium built whole rifle.

If it is just assembling yes I can do that right here too although I dont claim to be anything but a novice. I have assebled a few AR's and I have most or all the specialty tools, a machine shop and even a custom gunsmith to help if I need it.

But the point is, I dont want to do all of that, or any of it really. I want the rifle to arrive and me find a load or match factory loads etc, and mount up the optics and go shoot.

Yes I certainly know of CMT - it is the same Continental Tool right? Heck I think at one time there were only a few base suppliers of parts and the companies like Colt just called out the specs they wanted to use. Then I would think the parts were subjec to final QC, inspection and fitting, or not LOL, by the comapnies like Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster etc, Now there are suppliers everywhere. I rememeber when 1911's were a cottage industry. The AR swamped all of that LOL LOL - and even more when aerospace machining and all of that freed up machine time I suppose.

Thanks again guys.

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
BISCUT - Yes thanks for the reminder. I did not think of them but I had looked at the Noveske barrels and uppers before .

While not to thump anyone I called Rainer a couple of times who handled some of that. Heck they acted like they did not even have the time to talk or to take an order, and they did not have it and did not know when they were going to get it and I was lucky to even have them talk to me. I know all of these guys are busy, and have a bad day sometimes so no harm or foul. I did call back and it said leave a message and I did . No one called back. But no matter - I did not know I could go straight to Noveske either.

SmokinJ - And I agree that I want a complete built rifle, not parts. Of course one thing a custom builder should do is to insure that all parts of the build are up to the overall quality of the whole package. If that requires fitting, machining, etc. As you suggest if I am paying a premium , then I want a premium built whole rifle.

If it is just assembling yes I can do that right here too although I dont claim to be anything but a novice. I have assebled a few AR's and I have most or all the specialty tools, a machine shop and even a custom gunsmith to help if I need it.

But the point is, I dont want to do all of that, or any of it really. I want the rifle to arrive and me find a load or match factory loads etc, and mount up the optics and go shoot.

Yes I certainly know of CMT - it is the same Continental Tool right? Heck I think at one time there were only a few base suppliers of parts and the companies like Colt just called out the specs they wanted to use. Then I would think the parts were subjec to final QC, inspection and fitting, or not LOL, by the comapnies like Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster etc, Now there are suppliers everywhere. I rememeber when 1911's were a cottage industry. The AR swamped all of that LOL LOL - and even more when aerospace machining and all of that freed up machine time I suppose.

Thanks again guys.

The way you described your shop and having a gunsmith friend I am pretty sure you can assemble a top notch AR. There aren't a whole hell of a lot of secret to putting a good shooter together. Here's what I think are the critical points and areas: First you have to have a good quality barrel and a heavy contour if you want the long range accuracy and target accuracy. The gas port hole has to be the right size and in the right location. The barrel extension should fit snug into the upper receiver. Not loose as a goose. You have to torque the barrel nut correctly. Every threaded part on the rifle has a torque range. Something like the pistol grip screw torque isn't critical, but the barrel nut and the lower receiver extension tube are. Your receivers should fit together with no looseness or light visible through them. The carrier should fit the bore of the upper receiver correctly. You should have some form of a match trigger if you're going for accuracy like in target shooting. There's more, but nothing majic. What's the difference of you have top quality parts and they fit correctly like some of what I touched on, and your torques are correct, the gas port diameter and location are correct....what are the top name builders going to do in assembling that rifle that you aren't??? One thing they have is experience in knowing what to look for and how to correct any possible problems. The AR is mostly just assembling part. Take a 1911 semi auto pistol Now on that you don't just assemble parts you have to actually do some machining, honing, fitting, and altering parts. I feel that is more a gunsmith trade thing then assembling an AR. So is building a high grade quality bolt action rifle. Put another way if you and Novenske were in a room and you both had work benches with all the tools needed to assemble an AR and had the exact same quality parts, do you thing he's going to blow you away on assembling that AR? Not to be arrogant, I don't think he's going to put it together then me unless his has some alien secret. There's a lot more to assembling an AR, but I really feel it's easier then building a tune match 1911 or bolt action rifle. Now if you're having to actually make all the parts of the AR, especially the receivers and the barrels, then that really requires more skill. Les Baur says that he makes all his AR parts in house. I know he makes his own barrels and he my CNC out the receiver, but I bet he buys most the little parts.

There is no question that you are very experienced in this SmokinJ. I thank you for your help and I hope others benefit from the effort and time you have given.

Yes I could do it with good parts if they are right or even mostly right. I have built a few ARs and modded some too. After I had done some ARs without the right tools, I sat down with the Brownells catalog and ordered all their little trick assembly tools and alignment tools etc. Things like the bolt jig, handguard alignment tool, trigger jigs etc and even the taps and dies should a rough one need a hit to make it fit straight. There are other ways but this helps especailly the little holders for detents and all of that.

I have seen several times though that to get a Noveske barrel, and Larue handguards, and Larue mounts, and a top receiver, and a Magpul stock, and a Giessle trigger, Colt small parts, etc etc can approach just as much as a top built rifle from some of the top shops.

I agree with your critical areas and points. If you have a good barrel and a fitted bolt that is where it starts. Then a straight and true and strong receiver. And then a good fit upper and lower. Then all the rest. Heck I can easliy get MPI work any day on the parts or bolts etc if I need it.

I am an engineer, well I was back there in the ealry days LOL. In the oil business we have the API standards whcih are like the ASME, SAE, ANSI and ISO etc, but there are standards and there are standards. As you know two parts cut the same from different machines on the same drawing will often not fit together. Especially from different suppliers. A lot can happen. One set of cutters get dull, the operators walks off for coffee, or just tolerances. And tolerance stack. Or print interpretations. Trying to control the variables is half the battle sometimes.

One thing I tried to do before to keep it down was keep the subsets of one vendor matched up and screwed to each other. And then the other. And at the crosspoints we really checked that good and had the best control and the best machines and machinists do that work.

All of that has never happened to me on something simple like an AR, and if it did I did not know it LOL. But I felt that at the "upper end" of the builders they would know that, where to look and how to fit parts to minimize it. If it is just random then I think you are right, it is overpriced. But they should shake it out when they shoot it. And avoid me having to shake out any marginal parts or things that take away from the accuracy.

And I also agree that 1911's are much different and takes a lot more work and skill. What I was referring to was how many and how much was available for 1911's - that is now dwarfed by the AR platform suppliers as it is mostly just parts and not as much fit and finish. Same for bolt rifles too.

Anyway thanks again and I will do some calling and get back here too.

I priced out a few pieces like a Mega Billet lower ($230) and a Mega Monolithic Upper (585) a bolt carrier group (265) and a Noveske 20 inch barrel (500), a Gieselle trigger (280) and a few small parts ....$1900, and I am already at the LaRue complete rifle price. I agree I have good parts there, but you see what I mean about the totals of parts versus a complete rifle.

What might any body's thoughts be on a Colt HBAR Elite with a 24inch barrel vs something like the Larue. If the COlt is $500 or 600 cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
What might any body's thoughts be on a Colt HBAR Elite with a 24inch barrel vs something like the Larue. If the COlt is $500 or 600 cheaper.

Well I'd say this....if the COLT didn't shoot for that money save you sure could buy a match barrel for it that would.

Another finely crafted AR are those from LWRC.

I shot a colt Hbar target well under a submoa gun 24 inch stainless barrel.

P Dog I kind of figured that COLT model would shoot like that.

The only thing wrong with it is one goes through a lot of ammo in a P dog town.

Much faster then with my bolt guns.

One of the big advantages IMHO of buying a complete rifle from a sincle source is that you can discuss your exact requirements, including accuracy.

IF the rifle does not meed the makers guarentee, then you have only ONE SOURCE TO DEAL WITH.

I would recommend you talk to some of the recommended makers and then buy the rifle from the one that satisifies agreeing with all of your requirements.

My "across the course" (200 yds to 600 yds) competion rifle is an Krieger barreled AR match rifle design built by John Holiger of White Oak Precision. It will shoot five 6mm bullets in 0.6 inches (outside to outside measure) at 100 yards with aperature sights.

I have one of John's 5.56 service rifle uppers that will shoot 0.25 MOA at 100 yards with Sierra 77's and miltary sights.

I know many competitive shooters who have had similar excellent results with John's uppers built with premium barrel blanks.

Carl Bernowsky was the first person to win the National High Power Championship with an AR built by White oak precision in 2007. He won the title again in 2011 with the same rifle.

John's prices are very reasonable and in my own experience, he stands behind his work.

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/

my r25 is submoa is a target scope ..

quote:

Originally posted by Ammoloader:
My "across the course" (200 yds to 600 yds) competion rifle is an Krieger barreled AR match rifle design built by John Holiger of White Oak Precision. It will shoot five 6mm bullets in 0.6 inches (outside to outside measure) at 100 yards with aperature sights.

I have one of John's 5.56 service rifle uppers that will shoot 0.25 MOA at 100 yards with Sierra 77's and miltary sights.

I know many competitive shooters who have had similar excellent results with John's uppers built with premium barrel blanks.

Carl Bernowsky was the first person to win the National High Power Championship with an AR built by White oak precision in 2007. He won the title again in 2011 with the same rifle.

John's prices are very reasonable and in my own experience, he stands behind his work.

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/

I'm sure he's a great smith but going to his web site has just reminded me of one of my pet peeves. His "prices" doesn't have prices, but "Call". Why have a price list if you're not going to price your work?

The "call" is a fairly recent thing, I don't like it either ....

If you go to the upper left on the "White Oak Precision" home page there is a link that takes you to his other websight which is White Oak Armament. This sight lists his off the shelf AR uppers and parts with prices. From what I can tell, the main difference between the off the shelf uppers and the precision uppers is who's barrel is fitted. I believe the off the shelf uppers are built with Wilson barrels.

If I ever go back to a semi auto platform, it will most likely be a GAP-10 from GA Precision. No personal experience, but reviews seem to be very positive on their accuracy. Just another option to check out.

I decided to pick up the new Sig Sauer 716, four position adjustable piston and give it a try, I've only shot it to 200 yards. When time permits I'll take it out to 600 with the Hornady 178gr Match loads, it's a 10 twist.