I am suddenly very "taken" by these scoped rifles AND CARTRIDGES that can

by the right person, be used to make shots on 18" circles from 1000 thru

2500+ yards. Cheytac LLC, Desert Tactical Arms, Acc Int'l, etc., 50 BMG,

408 CT, 375 CT, 338 Lap Mag..., Nightforce, Hendsolt, Premier, Schmidt

Bender... But which are the top dogs in the three catgories; rifle, scope,

cartridge? If that's arguable then which are the top contenders and which are

clearly in the "STAY AWAY FROM" heap? No one wants to spend 5 - 10 K and

learn there's clearly something else they should have bought for the same $$$!

I'm sure allot of that depends on the shooter. Something I may think is junk, but you may swear by. For example reloading equipment; my brother-in-law swears by Lee equipment, and I hate them, and love RCBS! I have heard really good things about Nightforce and the 50bmg. But how well do they work together? What platform was used?
Everyone's feedback is well needed.

This is a good way, though, to weed out the sub-par equipment.

Myself used a 50BMG M2HB in the army and could easily rip anything apart at 1500yds+, including punching holes in light/medium armor.

Hope my .02cents helps.

lots of good guns out there and optics

I have had good service from S&B, NF, & US Optics on my "biggies"

Have owned Blaser, Barrett and customs.

Alot depends on what "purpose" you have in mind--

(Hard vs soft targets etc.)

I'm looking at a 408 build project as my next toy.

Though the 338LM is quite serviceable out to 1500

(maybe further, working on clearing a range area out to a mile)

AND -- How much you want to spend.

I forgot to say, I have a Carl Zeiss scope. That scope is so great! I love the light that it lets though in low light. I wish I had the funding to buy one of his higher end scopes. I had to stick with a 3-9X40mm. I would have opted for one with a high magnification to possibly use in competition as well as hunting.

Nightforce and S&B are really the only 2 to consider if you want to shoot 2500 yds. That said the S&B is optically superior. A Barrett rifle is not accurate enough to make a called 2500 yard shot on a 18" target, that is sub moa. In a 338 go with the Norma mag over the LM. With 300gr SMK it will reach out a couple hundred yards more. I have heard from several snipers that the Chey-Tac is not all it is said to be. For the kind of accuracy you will need I would assume a custom or semi-custom rifle would have to be built. E-mail the owner of Centurion Arms in CA. If he can't build it he will let you know who can.

Perry

Thanks guys. Feel free to cut and past anything that might be help-
ful that you find on the net as you "do your thing" surfing.

Also take a look at the 416 Barrett.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Also take a look at the 416 Barrett.

Not a moa gun.

Perry

Jack, for what you are trying to do I'd go full custom. When comparted to the MSRP of the guns you mentioned, you can get twice the gun for half the price.

I'd probably starte with a Barrel and action from Lawton (they make the actions for Cheytac) and go from there.

BigFiveJack, this was the rifle used by the Canadian Sniper who set the world record for longest kill (which has since been broken) http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmil...-tactical-tac-50.php
He was useing a Nightforce 5.5x22 NSX scope.

"Rumor" has it that the Barrett M 99's shoot well under one MOA.

quote:

In a 338 go with the Norma mag over the LM. With 300gr SMK it will reach out a couple hundred yards more

That's flat out wrong. The 338 Norma is a shortened Lapua Mag, and with bullets both seated long, the Lapua will beat it.

That said, the 338's aren't probably a good choice for 2500 yards without improving them and using very specialized bullets and barrels, like CNC solids and gain twist barrels too tight to shoot other bullets.

A better choice would be something off the Cheytac case. Less powder and overall "gun" than the 50, while being ballistically superior. The 375 Cheytac Improved with solids is probably the best long-range round to date. It can also shoot 350 grain SMKs quite a ways. The 408 is obviously going to have the advantage of factory ammo, but if you're shooting a 408, why aren't you reloading superior stuff at a small price?

We've shot moose & caribou across the river, and up on our summit (1000 yard cross canyon shots) and 800-900 yards on opposite bank of the Yukon. Always used my 7 mag and aimed 7-8 foot over their backs.

Hunting buddy from Georgia got me to buy a 30-378 like he has. It's fast and a long shooter. I've been thinking about a having a custom 30-378 built and then get a good sniper scope.

Why not a 30-378 for long range? Is that 338 Lapua that much better?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:

quote:

In a 338 go with the Norma mag over the LM. With 300gr SMK it will reach out a couple hundred yards more

That's flat out wrong. The 338 Norma is a shortened Lapua Mag, and with bullets both seated long, the Lapua will beat it.

That said, the 338's aren't probably a good choice for 2500 yards without improving them and using very specialized bullets and barrels, like CNC solids and gain twist barrels too tight to shoot other bullets.

A better choice would be something off the Cheytac case. Less powder and overall "gun" than the 50, while being ballistically superior. The 375 Cheytac Improved with solids is probably the best long-range round to date. It can also shoot 350 grain SMKs quite a ways. The 408 is obviously going to have the advantage of factory ammo, but if you're shooting a 408, why aren't you reloading superior stuff at a small price?

Well, I looked into some load data for the 338 and the 50.
Trying to keep the 2 on the same play ground here is what I found from the barns bullets site.
I tried to keep the SD closest I could for comparison.
So we are looking at:
.338 Lapua 250Ggr TSX FB SD.313 BC.425
VIT N170 84Ggr FPS-2654; 87gr FPS-2810

.50BMG 647Ggr TSX BT SD.355 BC.563
US869 240gr FPS-2760; 252gr FPS-2903

Now compare the closest BC:
.338 225gr TSX FB SD.281 BC.433
Magnum 90gr fps-2841; 97gr fps-3039

.50bmg 750gr SD.355 BC.563
US869 240gr fps-2760; 252gr fps-2903

This is just a window and slapped together in 15min.
I would have taken more time if I had it to compare 2 bullets of the same or similar gr., but I do not have the time.
But you can see from this small comparison that that they more then likely compete to maybe 800-1000yds, but the .50bmg will carry more ft-lbs on target and deliver more hydro-shock to target as well. To top it off the projectile will carry its mass farther before its decrease in velocity.

Now if your looking to do mainly soft targets you would be fine with the 338, but I dont think I would try it with other objects. But if you get into the military application your in a hole different world. It is easier to load incendiary and explosive compounds into a 1/2"DIA, then it is a 1/3"DIA delivery system. You can also pack more penetrating material into the target doing more damage to target at farther distances.

a little more interesting data---


A comparison of the M-200 Chet-Tac vs the Barrett M82A1:


at 800 meters the 419 gr, .949 BC Chey-Tac (launched @ 2890)

overtakes the the energy of the 50BMG 670gr, .630 BC, (launched @ 2770)

4074 vs 4027 ( Velocities of 2093 and 1658 respectively and flight times of .921 vs 1.04)



@ 1500 meters the 408 is still traveling 1520 with 2150 energy

while the 50 has dropped to 1067 with 1668 energy

(flight times of 2.364 vs 3.001)

Thanks guys. I am going to use my long distance rifle to shoot only inanimate "things".

{50 gal drums, steel plates 18" x 42" and the like}

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
a little more interesting data---


A comparison of the M-200 Chet-Tac vs the Barrett M82A1:


at 800 meters the 419 gr, .949 BC Chey-Tac (launched @ 2890)

overtakes the the energy of the 50BMG 670gr, .630 BC, (launched @ 2770)

4074 vs 4027 ( Velocities of 2093 and 1658 respectively and flight times of .921 vs 1.04)



@ 1500 meters the 408 is still traveling 1520 with 2150 energy

while the 50 has dropped to 1067 with 1668 energy

(flight times of 2.364 vs 3.001)

I see I should have done more HW on the subject. So I have been out done, of corse now I must admit I am wrong, but still Wright.....Joke on my last name....
Anyways, that is interesting, but the next thing to ask for people looking to shoot out past 1K, even 2k for that matter, what will hold its fps-ftlbs at those extended ranges.

So here is a image to help.

quote:

Originally posted by James Kain:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
a little more interesting data---


A comparison of the M-200 Chet-Tac vs the Barrett M82A1:


at 800 meters the 419 gr, .949 BC Chey-Tac (launched @ 2890)

overtakes the the energy of the 50BMG 670gr, .630 BC, (launched @ 2770)

4074 vs 4027 ( Velocities of 2093 and 1658 respectively and flight times of .921 vs 1.04)



@ 1500 meters the 408 is still traveling 1520 with 2150 energy

while the 50 has dropped to 1067 with 1668 energy

(flight times of 2.364 vs 3.001)

I see I should have done more HW on the subject. So I have been out done, of corse now I must admit I am wrong, but still Wright.....Joke on my last name....
Anyways, that is interesting, but the next thing to ask for people looking to shoot out past 1K, even 2k for that matter, what will hold its fps-ftlbs at those extended ranges.

So here is a image to help.

Well so I screwed up on the ranges in the soft ware....
But I m only trying to further my knowlage of the subject by constructive argument.

Duggaboye your not doing an apples to apples comparison. The 50bmg 670gn at 2770 is a very mild load. It can easily be pushed to 2900. You also should compare a higher bc bullet in the 50bmg, try barnes 750 gn solid with a b.c. of 1.07 it can be pushed close to 2800fps. If that doesn't work there are even better options out there for the 50.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
a little more interesting data---


A comparison of the M-200 Chet-Tac vs the Barrett M82A1:


at 800 meters the 419 gr, .949 BC Chey-Tac (launched @ 2890)

overtakes the the energy of the 50BMG 670gr, .630 BC, (launched @ 2770)

4074 vs 4027 ( Velocities of 2093 and 1658 respectively and flight times of .921 vs 1.04)



@ 1500 meters the 408 is still traveling 1520 with 2150 energy

while the 50 has dropped to 1067 with 1668 energy

(flight times of 2.364 vs 3.001)

Yes it would be an interesting comparison--

however, isn't the 750 @ 2800 load

above the 54,000 "std " pressure for the cartridge.


Keeping the pressure @ or around that limit it

should run a velocity around 2575 to 2600 or so.

The barnes #4 manual has load data over 2700fps with that bullet and the #4 manual is VERY conservative compared to their previous reloading books. I can't say for sure but I doubt the pressure is very high with that bullet. I haven't shot that particular bullet yet, but have shot a lot of Amax's and other high b.c. bullets out of the 50.

There are many comparisons being thrown around, but these are way different than anything that would be used for long range shooting.

No one going for a 1k or 2k shot should use a TSX bullet. The BC is much too low for such work.

Also, ft-lbs doesn't matter if you are shooting targets. Besides, no one deserves to shoot game at 2k, and usually the bullet used for that shooting would be a CNC turned solid anyways.

At 1k, about the maximum range on game for most seasoned long range shooters, most cartridge capable of 2k work will have more than enough energy at 1k with expanding bullets.

As far as shooting game at 1k by holding over the back...I find this hard to believe. A "7 Mag"", holding "7-8 foot over their backs" from 800-1000 yards flat out won't work.

For example we will use a 180 Berger at 2850 fps, about the best load ballistically for this cartridge. However I guess someone who refers to a good quality scope as a "sniper scope" was not shooting 180 grain Bergers. But I digress.

800 yards-
157" of drop, or 13.1 feet

900 yards-
212" of drop, or 17.6 feet

1000 yards-
280" of drop, or 23 feet

Flat out, that story isn't possible.

Just between 800-1000 yards there is 10 feet of difference in drop.

A custom 30-378 can shoot 208 grain Amaxes at well over 3000 fps, but the bullet only has a .648 G1 BC. A 338 Lapua can shoot a 300 grain Berger (BC over .8) at 2800 fps, and my Lapua Improved can do 3100 fps. It will stay supersonic further and dominate the 30-378 in the wind.

Light bullets going fast in any gun may be well and good for several hundred yards, but before 1k, differences will become apparent, and in the end they will go subsonic much sooner, with a lot more wind resistance.


For long range shooting, there are options, but they are limited:

7mm-168 Berger, 180 Berger, JLK bullets, and 200 grain Wildcats.

.30-190 SMK, 200 SMK, 210 SMK,208 Amax, 210 Berger, 240 SMK

.338-250 Hornady, 250 SMK, 300 SMK, 250 Scenar, 300 Scenar, all 338 Bergers when they come out

.375-350 SMK, CNC bullets

.408-CNC bullets

.416-CNC bullets

.510-750 Amax, CNC bullets

Of these bullets, it takes a special cartridge to reach 2k, with a combination of accuracy and speed, from fast to very fast depending on the bullet. Some of those won't even make it to 2k. But, for the best long range performance, the above list is a pretty good list of the popular "far-shootin'" bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
There are many comparisons being thrown around, but these are way different than anything that would be used for long range shooting.

No one going for a 1k or 2k shot should use a TSX bullet. The BC is much too low for such work.

Also, ft-lbs doesn't matter if you are shooting targets. Besides, no one deserves to shoot game at 2k, and usually the bullet used for that shooting would be a CNC turned solid anyways.

At 1k, about the maximum range on game for most seasoned long range shooters, most cartridge capable of 2k work will have more than enough energy at 1k with expanding bullets.

As far as shooting game at 1k by holding over the back...I find this hard to believe. A "7 Mag"", holding "7-8 foot over their backs" from 800-1000 yards flat out won't work.

For example we will use a 180 Berger at 2850 fps, about the best load ballistically for this cartridge. However I guess someone who refers to a good quality scope as a "sniper scope" was not shooting 180 grain Bergers. But I digress.

800 yards-
157" of drop, or 13.1 feet

900 yards-
212" of drop, or 17.6 feet

1000 yards-
280" of drop, or 23 feet

Flat out, that story isn't possible.

Just between 800-1000 yards there is 10 feet of difference in drop.

A custom 30-378 can shoot 208 grain Amaxes at well over 3000 fps, but the bullet only has a .648 G1 BC. A 338 Lapua can shoot a 300 grain Berger (BC over .8) at 2800 fps, and my Lapua Improved can do 3100 fps. It will stay supersonic further and dominate the 30-378 in the wind.

Light bullets going fast in any gun may be well and good for several hundred yards, but before 1k, differences will become apparent, and in the end they will go subsonic much sooner, with a lot more wind resistance.


For long range shooting, there are options, but they are limited:

7mm-168 Berger, 180 Berger, JLK bullets, and 200 grain Wildcats.

.30-190 SMK, 200 SMK, 210 SMK,208 Amax, 210 Berger, 240 SMK

.338-250 Hornady, 250 SMK, 300 SMK, 250 Scenar, 300 Scenar, all 338 Bergers when they come out

.375-350 SMK, CNC bullets

.408-CNC bullets

.416-CNC bullets

.510-750 Amax, CNC bullets

Of these bullets, it takes a special cartridge to reach 2k, with a combination of accuracy and speed, from fast to very fast depending on the bullet. Some of those won't even make it to 2k. But, for the best long range performance, the above list is a pretty good list of the popular "far-shootin'" bullets.

To Tyler
To everyone else You got burned!

Tyler can you tell us about your setup? My rifle is made to shoot up to and include 1k but with the scope on it 3-9X40 Ziess I would find it almost imposable to do much past 300-500 with my optic setup. I would have to increase to something more like a 50mm objective and something much higher then my 3-9, maybe more like 6-24 range or better. With the Zeiss brand scope. I would stick with them! Often with the lighting here in my state and humidity in the air, the clarity really dose help. I can also see with more clarity though it then with the naked eye.
My cartridge was developed to take targets out to 800+ meters. But many people call the 6.5x55 Swedish out dated. Just because its not shooting at or over the 3k fps dose not make that inadequate. Most times the BC for that 6.5 is higher then the .308 everyone wants chambered.


Now when you look into your shooting you are going to do. For this gent that started this, he is looking for extreme ranges. He had not stated shooting game with this, only steal targets.
So now we have presented some facts and he has a start into what he should need. We gave him the means to start looking into for him self and what HE besides is best for him is his choice.

SO big5 I was wondering what your take is on all of this? You have an idea what to get started in, but you had not given us any background in what your interested in doing. You want long range, sweet! But what are you looking for in a gun, caliber, scope, and so on. That way we go from finding marbles in a hay field, to playing ball in the ball field.

So I hope this helps get the focus back onto said topic, I mean not to step on toes.
See you on the firing line!

My gun is a rig built for long range only.

It is a 338 Lapua Improved with a 32" Broughton barrel, plus brake.

With 100 grains Retumbo under a 300 grain SMK I am getting about 3025 fps currently. The barrel is still breaking in and speeding up slightly.

Action is a Lawton 8500 with a 40 moa base.

The stock is a Mcree...total weight is about 22 lbs.

Shoots pretty darned accurate.

I'm trying out a Savage 110BA in 338 Lapua with a 6x24x50 Bushnell 4200 on it. I'll have about $2650 in the rig before brass/bullets, etc. A buddy has one and he outshoots his own Sako TR42.

If I get tired of shooting things at long range, I won't go broke!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I'm trying out a Savage 110BA in 338 Lapua with a 6x24x50 Bushnell 4200 on it. I'll have about $2650 in the rig before brass/bullets, etc. A buddy has one and he outshoots his own Sako TR42.

If I get tired of shooting things at long range, I won't go broke!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Savage as always been wicked great right off the shelf!

Tyler Kemp, Not trying to BS anybody here; just my judgment of the width of the Yukon where we live. I know it's over 500 yards as my 7 mag only drops around 30 inches when 2 inches high at 200. We have a contest at target on island in middle and local guy has rangefinder (400 yards). So I guess the width is under 800 and I take your figure as you guys are way past this subsistence hunter.

We often see moose on opposite river bank and just shoot higher when we see bullet hit the water. Moose never walk off until you have taken several shots anyway. On our summit (when caribou come through) we get long shots. My buddy shot 7 times at one double shovel until he got it with his 338 mag. The caribou didn't even know they were being shot at I think.

So my apologies if I mis-judged. I still get a big kick out of shooting far off and this is a great place for getting those shots.

I'm now using that 30-378. Bought it late last fall and has macmillan stock and burris scope that I will use this fall. It holds a 2 inch pattern off sandbags at 200 yards on my back porch shooting bench. I've been looking at those Monarchs, a buddy has a diavari, and my common sense tells me to just order a custom leupold as I have never had one go bad. For hunting, What scope would you use on a long range rifle if one was to spend between $1000-$2000 and wanted a scope that you never had to send back?

Also, that 338 lapua, Is it feasible as a hunting caliber or is it just a sniper round?

We live rural, get into town 500 miles away where there is gun stores and Sportsmans Warehouse couple times every summer. I'm going to buy scope over phone more than likely; I don't get the opportunity to compare them in person; and practically everybody here has leupolds and the Indians have peep sights.

Appreciate any info and thanks

Zhurh, sorry for coming off so harsh...

As far as your questions, if I had $1000-$2000 I wanted to spend on a reliable scope, that is a VERY loaded question.

Currently you hold over, with no range to guide you. I think you would be much better served with an externally adjustable scope, and a solid rangefinder.

For those tasks, and to keep it under $2000, I could recommend several combinations.

Sightron SIII 6-24x50 is about $800, and has the adjustment of a Nightforce, and an excellent reputation so far. I have one on my 338 and it serves me perfectly. Glass is as good as two Nightforces I have compared it to. Tracks dead nuts, has 100 MOA elevation adjustment.

Leica 1200 Scan probably $500, should hit large targets to 1000 yards and give you a precise yardage to adjust to in your scope.

This combo is the "budget" package, but at $1300 it will be totally fine, I personally am using a WILD optical rangefinder just because it can range any object at any range you can see, but it is not very portable. I would feel confident with the previous stated package, and I'll go into more depth on why in the next subject of discussion, about the 338 Lapua.

The next idea is the Sightron with a Swarovski LRF, which will most likely be more reliable at extreme ranges, and can almost always hit animals at 1000 yards, along with being able to range larger objects to almost 2000 yards. However, this will be about $900 and combine to be $1700. Still under 2k, but for 1k, the Leica will do more than fine.

Third package:

Nightforce 5.5-22x40/50, new ($1500ish), or used ($1300-$1500 depending on options) This scope is absolutely reliable. Never heard of one tracking issue. Military folk use them as well. However, I am not really impressed with the glass on them for the price. Really neat reticles, and certainly better glass than most are used to at least.

Leica 1200 Scan LRF...mentioned before

This about maxes out the budget, and would work well, however, with the first package and the extra $700 I will suggest the following:

The 338 Lapua is a viable cartridge if you want to reload. The 338 Lapua Improved is even better ballistically for minimal extra work.

Factory ammo is EXPENSIVE, and although high quality, pretty slow stuff, and Lapua bullets are not good for hunting, at least Scenars aren't.

With $700 you can get a pretty nice reloading setup started, and enter into real precision loading and shooting with a very superior cartridge in the wind and over long distances.

Now the 338 is NOT better for "holding over" because it doesn't shoot extremely flat, however when dialing, it bucks the wind better than almost anything, and hits very hard once it arrives.

With a good scope, good rangefinder, and good loads with a known velocity, you could be hitting things at 800 yards in one shot, and 1000 yards with practice and the help of the wind gods.

If any of this interested you in reloading, shoot me a PM, or even post on here. I love getting people involved in loading, especially once they see the benefits!

Tyler, Thanks for the response. I looked over the Sightron site and ordered a catalog. I'm going to give them a call. I just been buying Leupolds for quite a few years and thought they were the best. I have a couple 4-12's and a 3-9 but never bought more powerful. That long range shooting has kinda perked my interest last year or so. KInda funny, cause I remember 20 years back when we first came here, I passed on a nice upper 50's bull that was only 500 yards. Thought I could get closer, then never seen him again, ha. An Indian buddy from upriver in Dawson picked up a 2-10 Diavari and it is sweet. I wonder if Zeiss will do the CDS system like Leupold? Does Sightron do a caliber specific B&C graduation or are they mil-dot? I see they now have similiar scopes for ARs. I put a cheap leupold on my old A2 preban for my daughter for caribou in a few weeks; she can hit them behind the ears if she shoots like she does off my bench on porch.

You mentioned that leica 1200. I almost bought one a few months back, then heard they had new 1600 yard one coming out soon. I called the guy from NYC and he said not until xmas, so I figured I'd have the wifey get me one after all other presents are bought, ha.

I'm about ready to start reloading. Built a bench (hornady style from plans on internet). Got A Redding ultramag, BR2 measure, scale, case trimmer, Mitatoya caliper, lyman tumbler, and my dies & primer loader from forester. Got all the little stuff and have all the empty cases from 30 years of hunting. Picked up 400 Barnes X 180 bullets and have 200 empty 30-378 brass. I bought a bunch of powder last year and now need 215's when we get into sportsmans come august. I hear they have them in stock. Plan on reloading 7 mag, 270, 338 mag, and we have 44's, 480. and a couple 460s. Lots of reloading over the winter I figure. I have a buddy from lower 48 comes up hunting aug & sept every year; tells me he'll show how to do it. So, I'm about ready to start bolting it all down to bench. I'll be asking some questions.

Guy in our community had a 50, and would shoot at big rocks on our bluff nx to river, kinda cool. Eventually will get something on that order, maybe that 338 lapua that everybody is talking about. I guess if you reload that Lapua can be used for hunting.

We hunt off snowmachine quite a bit and we have 3 ARs and a couple mini 14's; all 223's. Those fmj's go thru everything though, not that much a good hunting round. That Stagg 6.8 spc kinda got me thinking too.

Anyway, I'm going to read all the back posts and try to learn a little and thanks for advice on Sightron.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
There are many comparisons being thrown around, but these are way different than anything that would be used for long range shooting.

No one going for a 1k or 2k shot should use a TSX bullet. The BC is much too low for such work.

Also, ft-lbs doesn't matter if you are shooting targets. Besides, no one deserves to shoot game at 2k, and usually the bullet used for that shooting would be a CNC turned solid anyways.

At 1k, about the maximum range on game for most seasoned long range shooters, most cartridge capable of 2k work will have more than enough energy at 1k with expanding bullets.

As far as shooting game at 1k by holding over the back...I find this hard to believe. A "7 Mag"", holding "7-8 foot over their backs" from 800-1000 yards flat out won't work.

For example we will use a 180 Berger at 2850 fps, about the best load ballistically for this cartridge. However I guess someone who refers to a good quality scope as a "sniper scope" was not shooting 180 grain Bergers. But I digress.

800 yards-
157" of drop, or 13.1 feet

900 yards-
212" of drop, or 17.6 feet

1000 yards-
280" of drop, or 23 feet

Flat out, that story isn't possible.

Just between 800-1000 yards there is 10 feet of difference in drop.

A custom 30-378 can shoot 208 grain Amaxes at well over 3000 fps, but the bullet only has a .648 G1 BC. A 338 Lapua can shoot a 300 grain Berger (BC over .8) at 2800 fps, and my Lapua Improved can do 3100 fps. It will stay supersonic further and dominate the 30-378 in the wind.

Light bullets going fast in any gun may be well and good for several hundred yards, but before 1k, differences will become apparent, and in the end they will go subsonic much sooner, with a lot more wind resistance.


For long range shooting, there are options, but they are limited:

7mm-168 Berger, 180 Berger, JLK bullets, and 200 grain Wildcats.

.30-190 SMK, 200 SMK, 210 SMK,208 Amax, 210 Berger, 240 SMK

.338-250 Hornady, 250 SMK, 300 SMK, 250 Scenar, 300 Scenar, all 338 Bergers when they come out

.375-350 SMK, CNC bullets

.408-CNC bullets

.416-CNC bullets

.510-750 Amax, CNC bullets

Of these bullets, it takes a special cartridge to reach 2k, with a combination of accuracy and speed, from fast to very fast depending on the bullet. Some of those won't even make it to 2k. But, for the best long range performance, the above list is a pretty good list of the popular "far-shootin'" bullets.

Tyler I hate to tell a guy when he's full of shit, but you are. You know what they say about making assumptions. Show me one place in here where anyone mentioned using a TSX. Now go back and re-read my post. I said the 750 grain barnes solid which is a cnc turned solid (I've watched them being turned on a lathe in the factory) and not a triple shock. This bullet actually has a higher b.c. than the 750 amax you're promoting, 1.07 for the barnes, 1.05 for the hornady amax. This bullet is used by many long range 50 shooters.

Also, get off your high horse about shooting game at 2,000 yards, that wasn't even mentioned in this post. This post was about shooting at long range 1,000-2,500 yards, not hunting at long range.

I too am sorry about coming off harsh, but for you to rip on guys for something when you don't know what you're talking about, let alone know what they're talking about is a little hypocritical.

James referenced a 50 BMG shooting a Barnes TSX, to a 338 Lapua shooting a TSX, and then a 338 shooting a TSX vs a 50 shooting a low BC heavier bullet.

quote:

.338 Lapua 250Ggr TSX FB SD.313 BC.425
VIT N170 84Ggr FPS-2654; 87gr FPS-2810

.50BMG 647Ggr TSX BT SD.355 BC.563
US869 240gr FPS-2760; 252gr FPS-2903

Now compare the closest BC:
.338 225gr TSX FB SD.281 BC.433
Magnum 90gr fps-2841; 97gr fps-3039

.50bmg 750gr SD.355 BC.563
US869 240gr fps-2760; 252gr fps-2903

I was showing that those bullets aren't representative of the cartridge's capabilities, and that no one is going to shoot long range with those bullets designed for game...

I also referenced the CNC .510 bullets, BARNES, or the like.

Perhaps I seem clueless to you, however I was trying to clear things up for those who have not shot much long range and could learn a bit from the information I posted.

As such, I wasn't even replying to your post with that information, filmit.

Understood Tyler. Just didn't see where you were coming up with the tsx comparisons. My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:

quote:

In a 338 go with the Norma mag over the LM. With 300gr SMK it will reach out a couple hundred yards more

That's flat out wrong. The 338 Norma is a shortened Lapua Mag, and with bullets both seated long, the Lapua will beat it.

That said, the 338's aren't probably a good choice for 2500 yards without improving them and using very specialized bullets and barrels, like CNC solids and gain twist barrels too tight to shoot other bullets.

A better choice would be something off the Cheytac case. Less powder and overall "gun" than the 50, while being ballistically superior. The 375 Cheytac Improved with solids is probably the best long-range round to date. It can also shoot 350 grain SMKs quite a ways. The 408 is obviously going to have the advantage of factory ammo, but if you're shooting a 408, why aren't you reloading superior stuff at a small price?

"flat out wrong"
Apples to apples I don't think its flat wrong. If you take a factory loaded 338 N in a standard action with a 22"-26" bbl and a 338 L in the same configuration the Norma wins. My understanding is that the 338 L to fit in a standard action has to have the bullet seated too far in and eats up case space. That said the Norma wins. In apples to oranges the L only beats the Norma by 25-50fps and the Norma seems to be an inherently more accurate cartridge.
All of this was explained to me from the guy that did the direct testing for the Navy.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:

quote:

In a 338 go with the Norma mag over the LM. With 300gr SMK it will reach out a couple hundred yards more

That's flat out wrong. The 338 Norma is a shortened Lapua Mag, and with bullets both seated long, the Lapua will beat it.

That said, the 338's aren't probably a good choice for 2500 yards without improving them and using very specialized bullets and barrels, like CNC solids and gain twist barrels too tight to shoot other bullets.

A better choice would be something off the Cheytac case. Less powder and overall "gun" than the 50, while being ballistically superior. The 375 Cheytac Improved with solids is probably the best long-range round to date. It can also shoot 350 grain SMKs quite a ways. The 408 is obviously going to have the advantage of factory ammo, but if you're shooting a 408, why aren't you reloading superior stuff at a small price?

"flat out wrong"
Apples to apples I don't think its flat wrong. If you take a factory loaded 338 N in a standard action with a 22"-26" bbl and a 338 L in the same configuration the Norma wins. My understanding is that the 338 L to fit in a standard action has to have the bullet seated too far in and eats up case space. That said the Norma wins. In apples to oranges the L only beats the Norma by 25-50fps and the Norma seems to be an inherently more accurate cartridge.
All of this was explained to me from the guy that did the direct testing for the Navy.

Perry

On this issue I agree with Perry. I looked into the 338 Norma and compared to the Lapua it flat out sucks.

First thing nobody is going to build a long range rifle of this type caliber with a 22-26" barrel. It defeats the purpose of the lapua. 30"+ is where you're realistic starting point is.

My 50bmg has a 29" barrel, I would have gone 36" but I pack it and hunt with it too much. And shooting at 2,500 yards is a farce with any hand held rifle. That's 1.4 miles.

If the 338 Lapua has the bullet seated deeper it's still going to have the advantage of a longer case that can still pack in more powder.

Quickload will hopefully back this up-

338 Norma (106 grains H20 capacity) 26" barrel, 300 grain SMK seated long (shank .3")

ADI AR 2218 gives the highest velocity at SAAMI pressures with 2794 fps.

338 Lapua (114 grains H20 capacity) 26" barrel, 300 grain SMK seated deep (shank .5")

ADI AR 2218 gives the highest velocity at the same pressure, 2810 fps.


The 338 Lapua wins...not by much, but the difference is there.

Plus, if someone was building a gun specifically for long range work, why limit yourself to a smaller case when you can just have a longer throat in your weapon of choice?

J Kain, Tyler, and all you men,

I've been reading the snipers web sites too and there's lots of info on
this category of shooting. I don't think realistically that I want to do
one of the more expensive rifles and calibers like 375 Cheytac. I will
say for scope and rifle ready to shoot $5000.00 is the ceiling. On another
site a guy posted about excellent shooting with .338 EDGE caliber. (.338
bullet from full length 300 RUM brass) This seems to me, to be well worth
the time to fully explore. I've also decided that I'll focus on the one mile
distance as a max for this project. Striving for 2 clicks or greater just
makes the special demands grow in number. If I am ever able to out shoot
a rifle engineered to shoot a mile, I'll go for another project rifle. I thank
you for your detailed posts and I hope you'll continue with them. I read
them all and factor them all into my thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
J Kain, Tyler, and all you men,

I've been reading the snipers web sites too and there's lots of info on
this category of shooting. I don't think realistically that I want to do
one of the more expensive rifles and calibers like 375 Cheytac. I will
say for scope and rifle ready to shoot $5000.00 is the ceiling. On another
site a guy posted about excellent shooting with .338 EDGE caliber. (.338
bullet from full length 300 RUM brass) This seems to me, to be well worth
the time to fully explore. I've also decided that I'll focus on the one mile
distance as a max for this project. Striving for 2 clicks or greater just
makes the special demands grow in number. If I am ever able to out shoot
a rifle engineered to shoot a mile, I'll go for another project rifle. I thank
you for your detailed posts and I hope you'll continue with them. I read
them all and factor them all into my thinking.

With the area I live I dont have the opportunity to shoot much past 100-200yds. I have a fully customized Swedish Mauser Chambered in 6.5x55. Although this rifle is designed to shoot out past 500. You could maybe get away with using the 6.5mm/.264cal because of the high bc! Look into the .264 Rem. Mag! OR there about. You could also use a old rifle and re-barrel and re chamber that rifle to what ever you want.
GL.

To a mile, a hot 7mm will work wonders with reduced recoil. A 7mm WSM, STW, RUM, or 7mm-338 Lapua all can do it, with a much cheaper cost.

You certainly don't need to spend $5000 if you want a gun to shoot a mile!

At 1000 feet altitude, a 180 Berger will stay supersonic for the following-

2800 fps- 1500 yards (mild 7mm WSM)

2900 fps- 1600 yards (warm 7mm WSM)

3000 fps- 1700 yards (warm long barrel 7mm WSM, mild 7mm STW)

3100 fps- 1750 yards (warm 7mm STW)

3200 fps- 1850 yards (warm long barrel 7mm STW, 7mm RUM)

3250 fps- 1875 yards (Fairly stout 7mm RUM)

I have seen a 7mm RUM with 30" barrel shoot 180 Bergers over 3300 fps.

So a 7mm can do a mile more economically, and 200 grain Wildcats can do the job even better.