I don't have much experience in ars or any semi autos for that matter. I am a bolt action kind of guy in hunting rifles. I hate 2 stage triggers in mausers, etc and replace them with usually timney or Blackburn units. Now say I want an ar for general use, plinking, occasional varmit hunting, home defense. Should I be trying 2 stage triggers again? I always hated any trigger that had any creep in my bolt guns and don't even like the lower end timneys. I would think I would want a clean single stage that breaks like glass at 3-1/2 lbs but never shot ars that much. What are the pros and cons either way? Doing internet searches seem to only get bias reviews.
Don

Quality AR triggers are excellent regardless of whether they are single or two stage. It does get confusing at times when you are using both types on your rifles, so there's something to be said for sticking to one or the other.

Both are excellent. If your primary rifles are single stage, you may want to stick with the same on your ARs if only for consistency, but there is nothing wrong with a quality two stage trigger; I like them a great deal.

there's several things, and I'll try to generalize

2 main types of triggers
drop in units - acting as one piece
multi piece units, acting like the original - in fact, could be a trigger job on a GI part, or a rock river national match, or the kludge of the jaeger trigger i have in my R25

2 main types
1 stage - if it says 3.5#, it breaks at 3.5#
2 stage - if is stay 5#, it could 40% on first stage, 60# -- or anything else they decide to do. If you plan to do military shooting sports, with as issued, you have to use a 2 stage

2 other types
ar15
ar10 - generally a heavier hammer for 7.6 nato primers

drawbacks of light weight
1: a very light trigger MAY have a light hammer, which can lead to failure to fire - FtF - and since there's only 1 way to cock the gun, its awkward
2: speed hammers on lighter weight triggers - these feel "Weird" to me, as the trigger breaking


myself, i like about a 3# single stage drop in, like the CMC or Timney, with locking pins - works more than 99% of the time, easy to deal with, clean, and repeatable across lowers

i do NOT like kludges -- externally adjustable, requires their safety, uses screw in pistol grip hole, etc are all kludges

jeffe

All my AR lowers are setup with Geissele SSA-E trigger. This is a two stage that's a 2.3 lbs first stage and 1.2 lbs second stage. You only notice the two stages when target shooting, for hunting it feels like a very smooth 3.5 lbs trigger pull.

I just installed a Timney three pound single stage drop-in in my Colt MT6700 HBAR. I can agree that the research was frustrating with all the various opinions and bias. So far I love the trigger. The break is a thing of beauty.
A note for everyone thinking of installing this drop-in and perhaps others in a large pin Colt. You will have to remove the lower receiver block. While not a difficult job it did require about 30 plus minutes with a Dremel tool and cut-off discs. A very steady hand is required and I would suggest no coffee prior to the surgery. The retaining pin does not drive out as it is two pins interference fit from either side of the lower.
Good luck and good shooting!

I highly recommend Wilson Combat AR triggers.
They are a one piece drop in.

Me, I just made the simple choice. I bought a Jewell...

Available in your choice of single stage trigger weights.

I use these triggers also.

quote:

Originally posted by hogfarmer:
All my AR lowers are setup with Geissele SSA-E trigger. This is a two stage that's a 2.3 lbs first stage and 1.2 lbs second stage. You only notice the two stages when target shooting, for hunting it feels like a very smooth 3.5 lbs trigger pull.

In the last few years lots of offerings for AR triggers, but as mentioned I find the Jewell to be an excellent choice. It is not a "drop in" but the installation is pretty straight forward and they are made of the finest material.

High power NRA ad CMP Ar service rifle shooters hugely favor the Gieselle 2 stage triggers, then older Xtreme AR, then RR NM and a new guy on the block is the one that pretty much started the AR trigger revolution a decade or two ago- the Milazzo-Krieger, now being offered again.

These all cost int the $120-280 range, all but the RRNM are adjustable on the second stage for creep, let-off and take-up, the first stages on all are only adjustable by changing or tweaking the stock or issued trigger return spring.

All of these have disconnector/sear hook arrangements like the M1/M14-M1A- front and rear hooks to hand off and disconnect and in my experience, the RRNM is a great trigger, but non-adjustable other than stage one the Xtreme is the best I have used (over 10k rounds fired, and at least 20K dry firings and makes weight at registered matches every time), the G series is great and the product leader by all accounts.

Modified GI designs and drop in boxes - the former I stay away from and the latter I have never tried.

ps-my Xtreme is set up with two GI trigger springs for a heavy ~3.75 lb 1st stage, and the 2nd is set for ~1.75 lb break. It is by far the best AR trigger and probably the best or near best all around trigger break I have ever used. Alas, Xtreme is no longer offered, by the maker stated he is expecting to re-enter production sometime soon- when he does, he already has a pre-order for two more for me.

Good answers, all of them.

That said, the gentleman is not a fan of 2-stage triggers, and is not planning to compete; so back to the Jewell single stage, adjustable down below a pound as he gets used to it.

Good feedback. Thanks guys!
Don

I have only built one AR. I ended up using a LaRue Tactical MBT. It is an in house trigger. Two stage with 2lb second stage. I am very pleased. The price was 125$ and about 10$ shipping. I have just under 500 rounds through the rifle and the trigger is really smooth and consistent.

lc

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
I don't have much experience in ars or any semi autos for that matter. I am a bolt action kind of guy in hunting rifles. I hate 2 stage triggers in mausers, etc and replace them with usually timney or Blackburn units. Now say I want an ar for general use, plinking, occasional varmit hunting, home defense. Should I be trying 2 stage triggers again? I always hated any trigger that had any creep in my bolt guns and don't even like the lower end timneys. I would think I would want a clean single stage that breaks like glass at 3-1/2 lbs but never shot ars that much. What are the pros and cons either way? Doing internet searches seem to only get bias reviews.
Don

I have used the Timney & CMC single stage 3.5 lb single stage both are great.
Have fun with your AR's! what a great little gun!!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Good answers, all of them.

That said, the gentleman is not a fan of 2-stage triggers, and is not planning to compete; so back to the Jewell single stage, adjustable down below a pound as he gets used to it.

Rich, I bought a Jewell a few years before I built my AR. After visiting and arguing with John Holliger I installed a Geissele trigger in mine and both of my Sons. Next one I built I installed one of the late model Milazzo-Kreiger triggers. I gave the Jewell to Wade Hull who owns Shilen. I'll try to ask him about it if he ever used it. I'll be there later today.

I'll give the Larue another vote. For the money, it is the closet to a SSA Geissele (which I prefer if money is no object).

I asked the question ( which AR triggers are y guys using on AR based match rifles and why?) to the largest high power forum I know of ( National match dot US).

To a man they all said two-stage types, mainly Gieselle and some others like Milazzo- Krieger and Xtreme. The "why" was mainly because these guys train hard- 20k dry fires and 5-10 k rounds fire in training and comp annually ( yeah, that much!)

The consensus was that single stage triggers do not hold up well nor remain constant for pull weight, creep and let-off over the amount of cycles required in a HP match rifle.

( same goes pretty much for Service rifles- no one uses a GI or single stage of any type, mainly because the GI type does not work well or for long, and the single stage non-OEM types do not meet the "looks like an M16 trigger" rule).

If you use your rifle a bit, then any decent trigger will get by, if you expect it to perform, I'd do what the heavy volume/precision shooters do and go with a name brand two stage. Gosh, if the US SOF types use two stage triggers, why would not you? ( Geiselle Automatics in late model upgraded AR platforms)

All of my ARs have 2 stage units- G, Xtreme ( my all time fav) and RRA.

A vote for Geissle. I have two. Both 2 stage. It is super smooth and I don't even notice the second stage when I'm shooting rapid fire. But for accuracy work I like having the crisp, light second stage.

A two stage trigger is fine for things like match or bench shooting.

I have a RR two stage in my prairie dog AR and like it for that application but in all of my hell freezes over rifles I run single stage mil-spec

Ted,

What kind of trigger/sear life do you get from your milspec single stages? even with colt and FN units, I have not been satisfied with weight, creep and life.....

However, I have an 9 year old Xtreme 2 stage with over 20k rounds/dry fire cycles and it still makes weight at 4lb 10 oz. , best $229 I spent in a long while. I'd take it to war as it....

No round counts to measure on any of them but several are approaching 10k

An article I wrote earlier this year for a newsletter:

Meet the New Boss, Same As The Old Boss – by Mike Stewart

The legacy of the Milazzo-Krieger trigger goes back nearly thirty years when an innovator from Wisconsin decided to design the ‘perfect’ service rifle trigger. Looking back it’s hard to imagine someone in the late 1980’s setting out to do such a thing. Remember, this was a period of time long before the AR-15 Became something that resided in the gun safes of nearly every American gun owner. Furthermore, the M14 still ruled the firing line at Camp Perry and anyone shooting a ‘Mouse Gun’ would’ve surely been laughed off the firing line.

But that’s exactly what Charlie Milazzo did, he designed a 4.5# adjustable trigger for the AR15 rifle that was absolute and without peers. In the early 1990’s 3,000 Milazzo-Krieger triggers were produced and as the popularity of the AR15 increased so did the demand for MKII triggers. Nearly all of the 3,000 MKII’s were gobbled up by Service Rifle competitors, including several triggers that went into service with the United States Army Marksmanship Unit. Many of the original MKII triggers are still in use to this day at the National Matches and countless National Highpower records have been set with the MKII. However, just as quickly as the MK trigger came on the scene it went away. Production of the MKII ceased and by the late-90s anyone lucky enough to own a MKII trigger would’ve surely held onto it as if it were season tickets to Lambeau Field. I can honestly say I’ve never seen a used one for sale since first becoming aware of the MKII trigger in the late 1990’s.

I’ll blame my inquisitive personality but I’ve owned a lot of different triggers. In fact I can honestly say I’ve owned over a dozen aftermarket triggers for the AR15. If I learned anything by owning so many triggers it’s that there are three attributes that make up a good AR15 trigger. It must be crisp, fast and reliable. There are a lot of triggers that are crisp and fast but in order for them to be reliable enough to be used in competition, you must give them excessive second stage sear engagement. Well, with increased sear engagement you lose the crispness and so on and so forth.

Having become frustrated over the past shooting season with my latest (and most expensive) trigger, I went back to my old reliable Rock River Arms trigger. The RRA trigger is a great non-adjustable trigger in its own right and a good gunsmith can tune them to be as good, if not better, than some of the top aftermarket brands.

I would still be using my RRA trigger today if I hadn’t recently discovered that the Milazzo-Krieger trigger was back in production and available for purchase! Oh, the sound of that sent chills down my spine and if I still had hair on my head it would’ve surely stood on end. Seeing an actual MK trigger in person is like seeing a ghost!

So I ordered the MKII trigger from Holub Machine and Repair and within a couple of days it arrived in my mailbox. I wasted no time reading the instructions and fitting it to my Rock River Arms lower receiver. An important note here is that the new MKII is identical to the original legendary MKII triggers that were first introduced 25 years ago.

Having been disappointed with many of my previous triggers, I was just as excited as I was apprehensive to test out the new MKII. Upon installation and adjustment my initial thought was WOW! I was impressed on how much less second stage sear engagement this trigger required than some of my previous adjustable triggers. However, taking up the slack and hitting the second stage ‘wall’ still feels extremely solid and definitive, not mushy and soft like so many others I’ve owned. My trigger feels like the 4.5 pounds are just about evenly divided between the first stage take-up and the second stage break. The MKII has minimal over-travel which can be adjusted by carefully removing
material from the tailpiece, but I like it just as it comes out of the box.

I don’t know of any other way to say it but my MKII is one of the few triggers that just feels ‘right’. Dry firing at the kitchen table is one thing but shooting a match is the true litmus test for any trigger; don’t ever think otherwise. Taking my rifle to the range, I really noticed how consistent this trigger is and to say its crisp is an understatement. You often hear the reference of a good trigger breaking like an ‘icicle’. If I were to describe how the MKII breaks, I’d say it’s more like a glacier breaking off and smashing into the ocean, I mean it is amazing! To date, I’ve probably fired over five hundred rounds with the MKII trigger and I have a feeling it’ll be the last trigger I’ll be buying for quite some time.

The Wisconsin Trigger Company is currently producing the MKII triggers and they are a good supporter of the Wisconsin FORCE Junior Service Rifle Team. They are also just as innovative today as they were in the early 90’s. In addition to the MKII, there is a tactical trigger available as well as a variant of the MKII trigger that boasts a bronze bushing for added lubrication, reduced friction and faster lock time. A lot has changed since the Milazzo-Krieger was first produced in the early 90’s but one thing has not, the Milazzo-Krieger Trigger is still without peers.

Comparing the several major two stage triggers on the AR market- I have three brands and two models of one band (Geiselle), five, I think of another (Rock River) and one of the last( CG Xtreme)- so,

Geiselle- I have two early ( c. 2009ish NM Service rifle models, identical sisters in AR service rifle lowers, they have been attached to carbine, A2, A4 and Match rifle uppers along the way. They are the second choice in my personal book. to begin with, they are made with either injection molded or MIM components. Whether that is a good thing or not is beyond my metallurgical expertise- they plain work. The feel of both is nearly identical- a standard AR trigger spring provides first stage take up and weight, then, a dedicated sear or disconnector spring provide weight for the second stage, both weigh in at 4.8 lbs on my Lyman digital scale. Both break cleanly and with almost no over travel- like a good trigger should. Once adjusted for initial operation, neither has needed any further work and have made weight over the last 8or so years.

RRA Service rifle unit. All of mine reside in carbines built for defense or loaner Service rifles- I have three of my own, several more in grand kids guns for the future. Again, Injection molded or MIM parts, non adjustable second stage 9 w/o driving out sear/discon pin and replacing the spring anyway) and all are useable, but they generally need attention over time to make weight consistently. Good solid value for less than an hundred bucks.

Finally, the crème, my singular Xtreme Service Rifle trigger. Unlike the previous brands, it is made of parts wire EDM cut from tool steel, polished and then salt bath nitrided for wear and surface smoothness. I too, like its cousins, uses standard AR trigger springs ( two on this one) to make the first stage a bit over 3 lbs. The, the weight and second stage engagement are controlled by two set screws. This unit breaks like the glass surfaces it possesses and is smoother than any trigger I have used in an AR and in most target quality bolt guns. As previously mentioned- this unit have over 20 thousand cycles of both live fire and dry fire and has resided on the one and only Service rile lower I use personally. This trigger has worn out two green mountain SS barrels, a Krieger CM and two Wilson SR barrels. It looks a bit stained from power residue, but the face of the hammer gleams like it is brand now, is smoother than either of the cousins even when they were new, and did I say it breaks like the proverbial glass rod. Additionally, the maker advertised and backed it up with a stop motion HS video that this trigger acts in just a bit under 3 MS.... The standard GI unit is reported to swing at about 16 MS.....

I think the G and RR triggers approach the speed of the best out there as they all are made in the same basic configuration- an arrangement of a front and rear hammer hook, and a sear and disconnector mounted within the trigger bar itself- so the angular movements are approximately similar, all use stock or boutique but standard design hammer and trigger springs and disengage the hammer by a Garand like set up of a sear ledge with minimal engagement depth, but along the entire face of the sear/hammer hook surfaces.

Having used GI A1 and A2 triggers in combat guns over my Army experience, I would not hesitate to use any of these trigger in a gravest extreme situation- and, as my recent survey of High power competitors revealed, both service rifle and match rifle AR types use two stage trigger nearly exclusively.

Granted, GI units are cheap. Name brand single stage units are not considered in my comments as I have never used any.

RRA goes for $120list, $80 or so on sale from the normal on-line sellers

Xtreme was a cool $229, but is not currently in production....

G brand units are going for around $180 for some models and the NM Service rifle was $279 per my last net search.....

I wish I had the money to try them all. But alas, that will never be. So far I have Timney curved, Timney flat, Giessle 3-gun, Rise Armorment and AR Gold. Of those, the AR Gold is noticeably best for me. The first stage is so light it is barely noticeable. The release is crisp with ZERO over travel. The others are good too, but each has some noticeable degree of over travel and some have a bit of creep.

quote:

My AR lowers are setup with Geissele SSA-E trigger. This is a two stage that's a 2.3 lbs first stage and 1.2 lbs second stage. You only notice the two stages when target shooting, for hunting it feels like a very smooth 3.5 lbs trigger pull.

I also use these on all of mine too.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Markey:
I don't have much experience in ars or any semi autos for that matter. I am a bolt action kind of guy in hunting rifles. I hate 2 stage triggers in mausers, etc and replace them with usually timney or Blackburn units. Now say I want an ar for general use, plinking, occasional varmit hunting, home defense. Should I be trying 2 stage triggers again? I always hated any trigger that had any creep in my bolt guns and don't even like the lower end timneys. I would think I would want a clean single stage that breaks like glass at 3-1/2 lbs but never shot ars that much. What are the pros and cons either way? Doing internet searches seem to only get bias reviews.
Don

I have used the Timney & CMC single stage 3.5 lb single stage both are great.
Have fun with your AR's! what a great little gun!!

I just bought a CMC single stage 3.5 pound trigger today. Installation was a piece of cake (there are a number of good You Tube videos to help guide you through the process). Makes a huge difference compared to the stock trigger. My AR is a DPMS Oracle and the original trigger was no bueno for accuracy shooting.

Mike,

Let us know how it works in live fire.

Unlike the orginal poster I like the two stage triggers on M1s, M1As, and AR15s. My mind is easily fooled so when I take up 3 1/2 or so pounds on the first stage and reach the second stage the old brain thinks it is a clean 1 pound break at that point. It does takes a little practice for really good trigger control.

I have two of the original M-K II triggers and a Geissele DMR in a third lower. Very happy with all three.

Mike, I had the rifle out at the range today. Trigger works great. It was very windy and I did not have my normal rifle rest, but was still able to shoot 2-2.5" groups at 150 yards with factory ammo. Very pleased with the trigger . . . pity AR triggers are so damn expensive.

Today I called Wisconsin trigger, the current maker of the Milazzo Krieger (MK II) trigger. My service rifle trigger that was installed by Milazzo in the 90s was breaking the second stage at slightly under 4.5 pounds which is the Service Rifle minimum.

He is sending me new springs and gave me some technical info they learned, all for no charge, not even shipping. Very pleased with these guys.

When I received my first Gieselle trigger I felt it was a little better than the MKII. The more I shoot them again the MK II is tough to beat. I forgot how good they are.

Mike, I have both. Both are great triggers. The fellow at Wisconsin is great to deal with.

My local shop is carrying Elftman triggers. If I do a build, their match trigger looks like just the ticket.

http://www.elftactical.com/ar-15-drop-in-triggers

This is a link to a PDF from Geissele outlining the features and uses each of their triggers. It may be helpful to somebody.

https://d3fknx2v3di431.cloudfr...er_Summary_Sheet.pdf

X2 on CMC Single stage. I just put one in my Colt. Excellent for the $$