I'm considering a semi-auto .308 again, since I've actually come to miss the CETME I used to have. Is there any reason besides history/nostalgia that one would pick an M1A over an AR-10 type rifle, like the DPMS LR308? They both have their pluses, and I'm familiar with each.

My biggest thinking is that the AR platform is much easier to scope, and this will be a scoped rifle in the end. Lots of good triggers, etc for this species of rifle as well.

You're right on about the pluses of the AR 10. In my opinion the AR 10 will shoot circles around an M1A and it will remain in that good shooting position longer. As mentioned easier to scope and there are lots of excellent trigger out there.

I've used both the M1A (actually a military issue M-14 match rifle) and the BIG AR-15s.

Hands down, I'd recommend one of the .308 AR types over the M1A.

Hi, Joe!

Great minds think alike, eh?!!!

I too am a fan of the Big ARs.

The M-14 types can be made to shoot too, but they require a whole lot more gunsmithing "magic" and maintenance to keep up top accuracy.

My advice........ don't ask a gunsmith which rifle to buy!

That is a tough question.

A few years ago I would have said the M1-A, as they were more reliable...

However there has been a lot of development in 308 AR's.

They are easier to attach a scope, lights, etc.

The best 308 AR I have shot is the one made by JP. It shot well under an inch with 5 different factory loads.
It used a foreend the same size as one for a 223/5.56 AR.

However, my favorite 308 remains the H&K 91...
Been using one since 1977.
Killed several deer and antelope with it.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
However, my favorite 308 remains the H&K 91...
Been using one since 1977.
Killed several deer and antelope with it.

I like the HK91 too. But it kicks like a mule (delayed roller system), isn't super accurate, and screws up the fired cases (fluted chamber).

Oh, and hard to scope.

But other than that! ............

Funny I do not find that it kicks hard.

I have found it to be one of the most accurate out of the box of the Paramilitary 308's.
Once in a while a good standard M1-A will come close, but never a FN-FAL.

Also there are no bedding problems with the H&K.
Also the barrel is free floating, after firing 20 or even 40 rounds rapid fire, the zero does not change.

Even Larry Vickers, who is an addmitted FN-FAL kind of guy, has stated on his TV show, that he considers the H&K 91/G3 the most reliable of the 308's.

Messes up the fired cases???
I did a test one time with 10 military cases and one Federal Match case. After firing them 11 times in an H&K they were still going strong. Try that with an M1-A... Or an FN-Fal...

Hard to scope???
Just get one of the factory H&K scope mounts. Any one fits any rifle, they just clamp on.
I have two scopes in standard H&K mounts that I have been using since 1977. Neather has ever had to be rezeroed, both have been on and of the rifle hundreds of times...

Sadly many people do not spend enough time with the H&K and just beleive what others have said.

I have spend a lot of time, and a lot of shots fired, with the H&K, the M1-A, the Garand, and the FN- Fal. I like them all, I have just found the H&K to be my favorite.

I like the fact that with one pin, I can change the forend. With 2 pins I can change the buttstock from regular to retractable, to one with an adjustable cheek piece and adustable length.

A bipod does not change the point of impact, like it does on the others, free floating barrel remember.

I can change the trigger group out in 45 seconds or less...

One screw and you can change the rear sight to the 1200 Meter machine gun sight...
Why for sporting purposes I do not know, but for funning around it can be done...

The 91 has the best of all magazines, they come in steel or aluminium and are double lipped.
You can get them in 5 round, 10, 20 or even 30 if you can fine the Nigerian contract ones.

All in all it is a pretty good piece of kit...
IMHO of course.

Don,

You should see some of the special purpose HK's shoot, like the heavy barrel sniper models. They are very accurate.

I can't see where an AR 10 would have ever been less reliable then an M1A. Besides the noted positives of the AR 10's, another one is that they aren't as hard on your brass.

HK ... AR is a toy for the range or gopher huntin.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Don,

You should see some of the special purpose HK's shoot, like the heavy barrel sniper models. They are very accurate.

I can't see where an AR 10 would have ever been less reliable then an M1A. Besides the noted positives of the AR 10's, another one is that they aren't as hard on your brass.

Many years ago my Dept. tested the SR 25 and later the AR 10. Both were so unreliable that we did not buy them...

However now most of the bugs seem to be worked out.
I shot a Knights a few years ago and it was accurate and 100% reliable with Federal Match...

The Army has just bought a bunch of Knights [M110 I think they call it now], and they seem to shoot good...

If you their price to the US Govt. YOU would have a heart attack.

In the Civilian World, I have shot and seen shot, a BUNCH of M1-A's, and never seen one that was not reliable and accurate enough...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Don,

You should see some of the special purpose HK's shoot, like the heavy barrel sniper models. They are very accurate.

I can't see where an AR 10 would have ever been less reliable then an M1A. Besides the noted positives of the AR 10's, another one is that they aren't as hard on your brass.

Many years ago my Dept. tested the SR 25 and later the AR 10. Both were so unreliable that we did not buy them...

However now most of the bugs seem to be worked out.
I shot a Knights a few years ago and it was accurate and 100% reliable with Federal Match...

The Army has just bought a bunch of Knights [M110 I think they call it now], and they seem to shoot good...

If you their price to the US Govt. YOU would have a heart attack.

In the Civilian World, I have shot and seen shot, a BUNCH of M1-A's, and never seen one that was not reliable and accurate enough...

Only problem I've ever seen with an M1A was not really a problem but failure to fully cycle. With hotter hunting loads you still need to keep your shoulder in it or it won't pick up another round.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Don,

You should see some of the special purpose HK's shoot, like the heavy barrel sniper models. They are very accurate.

I can't see where an AR 10 would have ever been less reliable then an M1A. Besides the noted positives of the AR 10's, another one is that they aren't as hard on your brass.

Many years ago my Dept. tested the SR 25 and later the AR 10. Both were so unreliable that we did not buy them...

However now most of the bugs seem to be worked out.
I shot a Knights a few years ago and it was accurate and 100% reliable with Federal Match...

The Army has just bought a bunch of Knights [M110 I think they call it now], and they seem to shoot good...

If you their price to the US Govt. YOU would have a heart attack.

In the Civilian World, I have shot and seen shot, a BUNCH of M1-A's, and never seen one that was not reliable and accurate enough...

Take into consideration how much longer the M14 type platform has been around. Include the M1 Garand in with that since they are very very similar. In that respect the AR 10 has done very very well. AR's right now are the dominating rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
HK ... AR is a toy for the range or gopher huntin.

Well the AR is a 223...

But with commercial SP or HP ammo it is very effective on people out to at least 300 yards or so. Very effective. I have used AR's [and the H&K 33K and 93] in 223, as a work gun for 23 years. In the Urban environment it is a good piece of kit.

I used one as an entry gun for many years before it was accepted.
Properly cared for I have found the AR to be very reliable. I have been to many "schools" some in sandy locations, where we shot over 1000 rounds a day, for one to two weeks at a time.
I had NO malfunctions, NONE. I did keep my gun lubed, and cleaned it most nights. I recommend BreakFree.......

How much do I trust an AR??? I keep one near my head most every night...

If I am on a hunting trip, then I might have a 44 mag Winchester Trapper, a H&K 91, an M1-A, or a Garand. As a 44 Mag, 308, or 30/06 can double as a big game hunting rifle, where a 223 cannot.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Don,

You should see some of the special purpose HK's shoot, like the heavy barrel sniper models. They are very accurate.

I've seen 'em too. But those aren't HK-91s.

PSG-1s are NOT HK-91s!

Macifej

I have not seen that with the M1-A and any factory hunting rounds I have shot or seen shot in them.
I have not seen it in the H&K or the FN-FAL either.

I have seen some High Pressure signs with factory hunting ammo shot in 30/06 Garands, but not in the 308 Garands.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Macifej

I have not seen that with the M1-A and any factory hunting rounds I have shot or seen shot in them.
I have not seen it in the H&K or the FN-FAL either.

I have seen some High Pressure signs with factory hunting ammo shot in 30/06 Garands, but not in the 308 Garands.

Was a new Scout but can't imagine the configuration was an issue.

DaMan

I have shot several PSG-1's and several G3SG-1's and they are very accurate...

However, I have shot a bunch of H&K 91's, M1-A's, and FN-Fal's with several different kinds of ammo, and I would rate the H&K's as having the best accuracy...

I have shot a standard H&K 91 to 850 yards and it had no problem staying on a chest sized target, in low wind of course...

Now a REAL Match Prepped M1-A, is more comparable to a GOOD 308 Sniper/Match Bolt Rifle, or the H&K PSG-1.
I have shot Match M1-A's that were under one moa to 1000 yards, in low wind of course.

No doubt one of the good AR10 Type rifles, Match Prepped, could do as good.

It is unfair to compare an out of the box gun to a custom match/sniper prepped gun...

If you liked the CETME, why not just buy a PT-91?

Lots of upgrades to the old CETME/HK-91, and a built-in Picatinny Rail on the top.

Rich

I have not seen that in the 4 or 5 Scout M1-A's I have shot. And I have shot 2 of them a bunch.

The only Springfield M1-A I have shot that I did not like was the 2 SOCOM's I shot. At 100 yards they did not shoot acceptable to me, ie @5" groups. And this was with Federal 168 gr Match and Winchester 168 gr Ballistic Silver Tip ammo. In an 18" M1-A the same ammo shoots under 2" with iron sights at 100 yards, with my old eyes, and in a good bolt rifle, well under one MOA.

Rich, some of the PT 91's have changed the number of flutes in the chamber and their reliability has suffered.
They went to 6 flutes thinking it would improve accuracy. [I think they did a 9 flute chamber for a while as well, but not 100% sure???]

I have heard that they have offered the option of the original 12 chamber flutes...???

This is the way to go as the original H&K 91's have 12 "flutes", and are very reliable and very accurate...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
No doubt one of the good AR10 Type rifles, Match Prepped, could do as good.

The thing with the AR10 type rifles is THEY DON'T NEED MATCH PREP.......

Put a good quality free floated barrel on ...... and they'll shoot sub MOA groups till the cows come in!

And they'll keep shooting like that for the lifetime of the barrel.

That's the deal with the AR type rifles...... it's all about the quality of the barrel!

That goes for all calibers and barrel lengths in the AR type platform.

I really like hunting with ARs, collapsible stock, short barrel; great for road hunting or off atv or snowmachine with 2 point sling. I killed caribou last fall with 6.8 stag and have killed a few with 223 ar's over the years. Ordered an AR-10 armalite 338 fed; pick it up soon as our road opens in apr.

I passed on a nice m-14, super long with nice flash suppressor over spending money on an AR. I might pick up a 308 rem ar in that winter camo if the gun shop as one when I drive down. Pretty tough for me to spend money on a rifle other than an AR unless super deal. Many new calibers coming out too.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
HK ... AR is a toy for the range or gopher huntin.

Hmm! And when were you in in the military to compare these arms, Segfej?!!

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
HK ... AR is a toy for the range or gopher huntin.

Hmm! And when were you in in the military to compare these arms, Segfej?!!

Let's not muddy up another thread. I have plenty of experence with both as well as M1A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, FNFAL, and a few oddballs too. I wouldn't consider myself expert or current on state of the art for any of the above. My personal opinion - AR based whether ancient or new, are great for clean environments where physical sturdiness aren't a huge factor. I like the FAL but could never get the ones I had to shoot anywhere near as well as my M1A. No doubt there are boutique AR10's etc which are plenty sturdy. My preference for up close is still an M1 Super 90 with full length mag. (no I haven't tried out any of the new Benelli's.)

A few years ago, I would have said to get the M1a because of its trigger. Now, with several really great two stage triggers available for the AR series in both 556 and 762 available, I would go with an AR.

But spend the $300 bucks on a good trigger if your gat does not already come with one.

My go to 308 is still a metric FN LAR. It will keep on an IPSC target (not a giant echo target) at 600 yards with ball ammo and metallic sights.

With an old leatherwood flat top dust cover and any number of scopes it will stretch out to 800 yards. But I know Ive got a good one and even with a trigger job its not an M1a or an AR-15. Kind of important at long range off hand.

As 450 pointed out, it has a very different point of impact prone vs supported or sitting when used with factory bipod.

My HK 91 will function with almost any ammo. Even cases that have been fired in an M60 machinegun and are way over long.

The FN is still the most controllable of all 30 caliber rifles full auto. Then the HK.

Not all M1a's are created equal. Probably more accurate AR's out there than rack grade M1's???

PS I also like the CIS Ultimax. One hundred round burst at 800 yards usually effective!



Andy

Old school here, but over the years found the M1A utterly reliable, and very accurate. Not sure what the use of either one will be, but with use of optics, scale would tilt toward the AR10 rifle. M1A needs to have cheek piece pad to get your eye on a line with the scope. Not so with the 10 and also the mount systems for the 10 are numerous and most work fine on the rail. Most likely you will be reloading and the M1A as pointed out will beat the crap out of the brass.
After three loadings, suggest you get new brass for broken cases in chamber can be a pain. If you are looking for "super" accuracy the M1A will deliver, but needs bedding job and some other tricks and over time will need to be rebedded. No bedding issues with the AR10 type.
Mil spec parts for the M1A are scarce these days, price keeps going up on those that do remain. Even with those negatives, to me the M1A, quality built, is one of the finest semi autos out there. Walnut and steel still have great appeal to me, but as stated, old school.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
HK ... AR is a toy for the range or gopher huntin.

Well the AR is a 223...

But with commercial SP or HP ammo it is very effective on people out to at least 300 yards or so. Very effective. I have used AR's [and the H&K 33K and 93] in 223, as a work gun for 23 years. In the Urban environment it is a good piece of kit.

I used one as an entry gun for many years before it was accepted.
Properly cared for I have found the AR to be very reliable. I have been to many "schools" some in sandy locations, where we shot over 1000 rounds a day, for one to two weeks at a time.
I had NO malfunctions, NONE. I did keep my gun lubed, and cleaned it most nights. I recommend BreakFree.......

How much do I trust an AR??? I keep one near my head most every night...

If I am on a hunting trip, then I might have a 44 mag Winchester Trapper, a H&K 91, an M1-A, or a Garand. As a 44 Mag, 308, or 30/06 can double as a big game hunting rifle, where a 223 cannot.

For information the first "AR" that Eugene Stoner build was the AR 10. The military wanted a smaller cartridge and rifle. He then came up with the AR 15. The rest is history.

AR's means all of them...that is AR 15's and AR 10's. Anyways lets take the AR 15's. They are in far more calibers then just the 5.56 (223). Let me name just a few, but not conclusive: 5.56, 6.8 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, 300 Whisper (300 Blackout) and 30 RAR Remington. But wait, Olys makes and AR 15 in 25 WSSM!!! yup and Alexander Arms makes the 50 Beowulf and their is the 458 Socom. Now there are AR 15's that will shoot beyond 600 yards.

I packed M-16's more than two years in the jungles of Vietnam. CAR-15 for about six months, then being the tallest guy on my team, I got the M-203. I never had a ftf with either, or witnessed any by our teams. Keeping it clean is still the operative way to go.

That said, I would be hard pressed to choose between a quality built AR-10 and the PT-91's I have shot the last six months.

Rich

Given the choice, I'd buy a flat top AR with a floated barrel, add a Turner AWS sling and pick a scope. If you want open sights or plan on being able to use both get the gas block with rail and removable front sight too.

Sam, you're a mind reader. That's what I was thinking. A flat top with a free float handguard and a gas block with the rail on it. That way, you don't rule out irons completely. The scope mounts for the M1A are all kind of iffy looking to me, and they cost a lot. If I was going with a purely iron sight gun, I think I would end up with an M1A, though. It seems to me that getting an M1A to really shoot requires some black magic, while an AR will typically just do it as long as you have a good barrel.

Now I just need a 458 SOCOM upper for the AR-15...

I agree with Sam, Rock River Arms puts 2 stage match triggers in theirs and gaurantee 1moa. You really can't go wrong with an M1A either, but my preference is the AR.

The bad part is I wanted an M1A for years but they are tempermental. The AR isn't. I'll agree to RRA any day. I've been shooting a DCM that all I've done other than clean it is put a butt weight and sling on it.

Take a look at the JP Enterprises 308 AR.

I have only shot one of them, the lighter weight version, but I was impressed.

It shot several different types of ammo under one inch at 100 yards. Like from 9.5mm to 12.5mm...

There is a story about this gun in the Japanease magazine "GUN" the August 2008 issue.
I even did some of the shooting for the article...

Over the years I have had--
a few Match grade M1-A's and 308 Garands,
an HK PSG,
a Match grade BM-59,
2 Match FN-Fals,
a Stoner 25
an AR-10T
and
a Sig 510.
(and several other .308's)

All have been accurate and functional.

IMO for the avg. Joe the AR platform is easier to shoot.

I hear the Army rifle team also believes the AR's to be generally more reliable and accurate.

(For the record I now own 2 Match M1-As, one Keltec RFB, one FAL, 2 Berettas , lately the RFB has become my go to rifle.)

I no longer compete and am considering selling more of the match guns,

I'll probably hang on to a BM-62 that used to be my go to--just for old times sake.

Although I believe the AR platform to be better-- I have sold them all--
just not as much "soul"as the M!-A/Garand style rifles.

So what's up with the RFB--
It simply works--
a compact maneuverable package
and has been accurate "enough" out to 600

I have never shot the Kal=Tek bullpup. How is the trigger? What sort of accuracy does it have?

Does the forward ejection complicate clearing a jam an issue like it does the FN2000?

Andy

Andy,
So far only two jams --(almost 1000 rds.)
both due to OLD and truly crudy surplus ammo.
One easily cleared-
one cleared with a rod
(would have been the same in my other rifles)

As to accuracy, I can hit easily offhand our
135 yd 6"gong, 250 12", 350 18", and 500 30"
and occasionally the 600 ram (max 18 X 30).

As of yet I have not loaded match grade ammo in it yet-- but my hunting loads put 5 in 1 1/2" at 100.
(I do plan to work up a precision load as I did in the past for my match rifles-- will let you know the results)

Duggaboye,

Thats good shooting!

What kind of scope did you put on it?

It is so compact I see from on line videos that a target scope sticks way out over the handguards.

A 1.5 x 6 would probably be nice on that rifle.

How many positions does it have on the gas port? Im thinking it would be nice suppressed.

Andy

Thank you for the compliment, its getting harder as I get older.

Besides whiffing the 600, I do whiff the 500 more than I used to as well.

The optics are Co-witnessed Trijicon reflex with an intermediate eye relief 1-4 Burris compact in high tactical rings both quick remove style.

I'm not sure, I think it has 35 to 40 clicks on the gas.

Thats alot of clicks on the gas tube. More than a FAL. Do you use the same proceedure to select gas port, shoot and adjust until the bolt locks back?

If you have any pictures of the op rod and bolt carrier out of the rifle I would like to see what it looks like.

Thanks for sharing.

I have one of the original SR-25's and never liked the long barrel or handguards. Am thinking of returning it to Knight Armament and having it converted to an M110.

If I do that I will keep that as my target rifle and use the FN with a red dot.

Your Kel Tek sounds like alot of rifle for the money.

Andy

I had to switch to left hand shooting about 4 years ago.

The RFB seemed to be a good choice--turns out to have been a very good choice.

Some good Pics

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...762mm-bullpup-rifle/

A couple of good Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4K_PPe5Rnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar9KkdVnoGY

Some data

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/rfb/

Check out the KSG Too

http://www.keltecweapons.com/n...kel-tec-shotgun-ksg/