Needing to put together an AR for hog hunting and after looking over various cartridges I have narrowed it down to the 450 Bushmaster or the 458 SOCOM. If anyone here has experience with either or both please give me your opinions.
Can either one be put on a standard 223 AR lower? Will the regular 223 magazines work?

Both work on standard lower. 458SOCOM uses standard AR mags. Check of the 458 SOCOM forums. Lots of info.

John,

The .458 SOCOM uses .458" rifle bullets, and the .450 Bushmaster uses .452" pistol bullets, so you have to factor in the economics of reloading components (and proprietary magazines for the .450 bushmaster).

Of the two, I'd go with the .458 SOCOM as it can use heavier bullets (up to 600gr. for subsonic loads).


I have decided to go with a .300 Blackout (uses standard 5.56 magazines), which will eventually be outfitted with a suppressor.

George

Lucky bastid!

Yes, I am!

George

There's also a 450 Marlin, but it's on an AR 10. That uses the .458 rifle bullets.

I'm wondering what made you narrow it down to those two? Pigs aren't hat hard to kill. I watched a guy kill one with a 25 caliber air rifle. What didn't you like about a 6.5 Grendel?

Just like big bullets I guess. I've checked out George's 300 Blackout, the 300 Whisper and others and just don't see anything about their qualities that appeals to me for this application. Ranges will be on the short side, likely in the brush a good bit of the time too. A 250-300gr bullet moving along at 2000fps+/- is just better for that, IMO.

Why not the .50 Beowulf? I love mine, 350 Sierras at 1900 fps out of a 16" barrel. Uses stock 5.56 mags and hits like a truck. IMHO the perfect Hog gun!

The 50 Beowulf by Alexander Arms is very hard to not only get ammo for, but very hard to get brass for. I think only Lee makes the dies for it, not sure. It's also not a very well designed case as it's very very over rebated and there are too reasons that it's not loaded to higher pressures. One is the AR 15 can't take it especially after the bolt face has been opened up to accept the large rim size which is the same as the 7.62x39...which is, off the top of my head .440 something. The bolt lugs are undercut a lot and that area now being very thin. The other reason is that the case is so rebated that higher pressure can "oil can" it.

I went through this myself as well. Just haven't made the purchase yet. I decided on the 458 SOCOM so I can use any of the varied and plentiful .458 rifle bullets and my same normal 5.56 magazines.

All, there is another big bore for the AR about to hit the market. My friend has taken the 460 S&W case, put a 308 size extractor groove in it, and is running it on the AR 10 platform. The nice thing about this is that none of the parts or reloading components are proprietary. You can modify the case extractor groove yourself, or my friend is having a place to those, the brass itself is readily available and so are the dies from just about everyone because you use the same 460 dies. It's 45 caliber so you can use all the available bullets too. Warning here, since is can be a 60K cartridge depending on how you load it, be aware should you decide to load it hot that there are special bullets for the hotter 45 cartridge and is important to use them in the hotter loadings. This is the same for the 460 S&W or 454 Casull to just name too. Nice thing too is the AR 10 platform will handle this cartridge. You don't have to buy any special magazines. My friend is running the rifle for testing now using MEGA MA TEN billet receivers and setup for the DPMS style 308 magazine. This round will do everything all the others before it and more. You can go subsonic to super sonic!

So, this new cartridge is a wildcat?

Pistol Bullets?

What does it headspace off of - the lips of the case like the Bushmaster and 45 acp?

KB

Yes pistol bullets but the Hornady XTP's for the 460 Smith and 454 and such are much more heavily constructed then regular pistol bullets and then there are the Barnes copper bullet for that caliber.

It head spaces the same way the 450 Bushmaster does and it doesn't have any problems. Neither does a 30 carbine. What does your 45 Super head space on?

It's just one more thing for the potential handloader to be particular about.

So, what's the problem with the 450 Bushmaster, if headspacing off the lips and pistol bullets are OK?

And factory ammo is available for those who don't want to bother with handloads.

KB

Baised on what I have read about the accuracy, reliability and how well it kills game I would go with the 450 Bushmaster.

Just buy a bunch of Hornady ammo and go pig hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's just one more thing for the potential handloader to be particular about.

So, what's the problem with the 450 Bushmaster, if headspacing off the lips and pistol bullets are OK?

And factory ammo is available for those who don't want to bother with handloads.

KB

Hornady knows my friend and told him after it gets running they may be interested in making ammo for it. When my friend questioned me on bullets for it and I told him his first choice wasn't meant for super magnum velocities and pressures he contacted Hornady and they told him the same thing I did. That's how they became aware of this new cartridge.

I see it as a variant of the 450 Bushmaster, sooped up so it won't work in the AR 15.

I like the 458 SOCOM because it has a shoulder, uses std .458 bullets, works in the AR15, and uses standard magazines.

KB

The 458 Socom doesn't have a standard bolt. It's limited in velocity. The new round can be if you want nearly double the velocity of the 458 Socom. What's wrong with .452 bullets? Like I said they make heavier constructed ones.

All is nice but remember you will lose all most all your brass when hunting. Then a good chance you will lose some during paractice.

Its easy pop a few extra rounds off at a running pig

Just the way auto loaders are losing expensive hard to get brass would be a deal killer for me.

I thought one would be fun also but my single shot 45-70 works just as well and a 460gr hard cast is deadly on pigs in brush.

I would go with and AR10 in 308 if I needed a semi auto to kill lots of pigs.

I shoot resized 429 300 gr bullets in my 416 at 2600fps and they seem to hold to gather just fine.

But then only shot some deer with them.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I shoot resized 429 300 gr bullets in my 416 at 2600fps and they seem to hold to gather just fine.

But then only shot some deer with them.

Yup you got it p dog.

The way I see it is it's hard to made a 38 Special a 357 mag but you can make a 357 mag a 38 Special easy. With 458 Socom and 450 Bushmaster you are stuck at their lower velocity and energy level because of the weakness of the AR 15 platform. The easy reply answer for those who like the two mentioned cartridges is "so what, I don't need all that power". KB is worried about head spacing and he wants to use rifle bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I shoot resized 429 300 gr bullets in my 416 at 2600fps and they seem to hold to gather just fine.

But then only shot some deer with them.

Resizing them like that is easier when using soft bullets.

"hold to gather just fine" Whaaatt - do you mean they exited the muzzel intact? Spoken like a true 22 cal centerfire advocate.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
What's wrong with .452 bullets? Like I said they make heavier constructed ones.

That's what the advocates of 22 cal centerfires say, as rationalization, and it's true, as a stand-alone statment.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
All is nice but remember you will lose all most all your brass when hunting. Then a good chance you will lose some during paractice.

Its easy pop a few extra rounds off at a running pig

Just the way auto loaders are losing expensive hard to get brass would be a deal killer for me.

I thought one would be fun also but my single shot 45-70 works just as well and a 460gr hard cast is deadly on pigs in brush.

I would go with and AR10 in 308 if I needed a semi auto to kill lots of pigs.

It always comes down to that for me as well, when I start really considering the purchase of an AR.

Lost brass isn't the only issue. That which can be found is usually mangeled, dented, bent, blown out, or otherwise just not nice to work with. I like the idea of an AR in 308 and let the brass go where it wants to.

I'm still drawn to the AR, along with millions of others. And I want it light for carrying. So, if I bought one, it would be with a 6.5 Grendel upper, and I would just learn to not worry too much about the brass. The nice thing about the Grendel rig is that I could get a 458 SOCOM upper and switch without buying a whole other rifle.

KB

If you're talking about brass getting dented, getting mangled, all of this to the extreme, you're not talking about AR's you're talking about HK's, Valmets, Hakeems, Galils, etc. The AR doesn't mangle brass nor does it throw it into the net county. If you can find brass from your lever action or your bolt action you can find your ejected AR brass.

You're 22 caliber bullet comparison to the 45 aren't going to fly here. Nor do you know much about sizing jacketed bullets down.

I know just enough to give practically everything you write the reasonableness test, which IMO is sorely needed, and often.

On second thought, I do tend to agree with you about the AR throwing brass. It's not as bad as the others you mentioned.

My problem with the AR is that they are ugly, and awkward in my hands. The magazine sticking down is flat out in the way.

My druthers lean towards the Ruger Mini-14 and mini thirty, and particularly the 6.8mm. Those rifles look right, handle well, and don't catch on stuff, and they aren't nearly as ugly as the AR. Tacticool ain't cool to me, it's an abomination. Now, if the Rugers would only shoot accurately.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I know just enough to give practically everything you write the reasonableness test, which IMO is sorely needed, and often.

On second thought, I do tend to agree with you about the AR throwing brass. It's not as bad as the others you mentioned.

My problem with the AR is that they are ugly, and awkward in my hands. The magazine sticking down is flat out in the way.

My druthers lean towards the Ruger Mini-14 and mini thirty, and particularly the 6.8mm. Those rifles look right, handle well, and don't catch on stuff, and they aren't nearly as ugly as the AR. Tacticool ain't cool to me, it's an abomination. Now, if the Rugers would only shoot accurately.

KB

KB, Well then this fits you like a suit:

Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

You know, unless you're using an AR is combat, that you can obtain 5 and 10 round magazines. You mentioning the magazine as an obstacle shows you're never been in the military for you don't know how to hold one correctly alone shoot it. The AR far exceeds the Mini 14. If it didn't our military would be using the Mini.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Needing to put together an AR for hog hunting ?

They don't call them ARs for nothing. Let's not forget what this discussion is about. Military use is one thing - an assault on hogs is another. The latter is generally called hunting.

Somehow, the distinctions have become perverted, IMO. Tacticool has no place among the oak and piney forests, creek bottoms, marshes in the pursuit of game, IMO. But it's there - why?

There is plenty of space to criticise me, for not knowing how to hold an AR correctly, etc. BTW, I've seen the videos of our troops holding the butt of their AR ON TOP of their shoulder, as they enter close quarters. WTF is wrong with that picture?

I can just see the tacticool Elmer Fudd stalking through the forests in pursuit of the wiley feral hog, with his AR butt on top of his shoulder. Spraynprey-Yippiefuckingcoyotee.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
Needing to put together an AR for hog hunting ?

They don't call them ARs for nothing. Let's not forget what this discussion is about. Military use is one thing - an assault on hogs is another. The latter is generally called hunting.

Somehow, the distinctions have become perverted, IMO. Tacticool has no place among the oak and piney forests, creek bottoms, marshes in the pursuit of game, IMO. But it's there - why?

There is plenty of space to criticise me, for not knowing how to hold an AR correctly, etc. BTW, I've seen the videos of our troops holding the butt of their AR ON TOP of their shoulder, as they enter close quarters. WTF is wrong with that picture?

I can just see the tacticool Elmer Fudd stalking through the forests in pursuit of the wiley feral hog, with his AR butt on top of his shoulder. Spraynprey-Yippiefuckingcoyotee.

KB

I bet you didn't know it, but AR stands for Armalite.

Nobody is talking military use or tactical here except you. You have the most amazing ability to turn things around on people and I'm on to you.

The military developed their carrying of their rifle/carbine to suit military tactics just as SWAT teams have. This has nothing to do with how you should use them for hunting. Speaking of hunting didn't I mention that you can get 5 and 10 round magazines in the previous post? I don't believe in flash hiders, bayonet lugs, 30/40 round magazines, dozens of picatinny rails, etc. when using the AR's for hunting either. Now I did mention military as point when you starting talking about how wonderful and good the Mini 14 is.

You know KB, you're too dumb to realize when someone is trying to help you...because brother...you're lost.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You have the most amazing ability to turn things around on people and I'm on to you.

"when you starting talking about how wonderful and good the Mini 14 is"

Same to you. Plus a whole lot more. The kind of help you offer, I really feel better off without. Thanks but no-thanks.


As a fine example of your contortions, I didn't say the mini 14 Ruger is "wonderful and good". That's just a fragment of your BS. The Ruger Mini is a great idea, and design, but obviously flawed because they are known to be inaccurate. There is no reason for it other than Ruger sloppiness in tolerences. The design is OK, and proven.

KB

I tried to help you when you bought the "wrong" bore dimensions 8mm barrel from Woody. That sure went south fast.

You know damn well you emphasize how much better you think the Mini 14 is over the AR especially since you own one in 6.8. For your information it's not their sloppy tolerances that made them inaccurate and that problem has been resolvers...but I'm not going to tell you what they are because you just said you didn't want my help.

You also know damn well you get into the 223 threads, especially when carpetman is in them, just for the sole purpose of agitation.

Anything else?

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
My druthers lean towards the Ruger Mini-14 and mini thirty, and particularly the 6.8mm. Those rifles look right, handle well, and don't catch on stuff, and they aren't nearly as ugly as the AR. Tacticool ain't cool to me, it's an abomination. Now, if the Rugers would only shoot accurately.

KB

That's what I said, and you embellished it with your intrepretations.

It's good to read that they have resolved whatever the problem was. Thanks for the info. That's all I really need to know, but with your additional "help" we could start a whole new 12 page thread on the subject and beat it to pieces. And while we are at it, make each other wrong, and 25 others too. That's the kind of "help" I have come to expect from you.

I get on the 223 threads and mess with carpetman because he is easy to mess with, and he actually helps me make my argument points.

Woody scares me, and he's your buddy, and you exhibit many of his character traits. I want nothing else to do with Woody. I'm sure there is a medical term for his condition full of case studies in something neurological that means something to someone. The only thing it means to me is RUN.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
My druthers lean towards the Ruger Mini-14 and mini thirty, and particularly the 6.8mm. Those rifles look right, handle well, and don't catch on stuff, and they aren't nearly as ugly as the AR. Tacticool ain't cool to me, it's an abomination. Now, if the Rugers would only shoot accurately.

KB

That's what I said, and you embellished it with your intrepretations.

It's good to read that they have resolved whatever the problem was. Thanks for the info. That's all I really need to know, but with your additional "help" we could start a whole new 12 page thread on the subject and beat it to pieces. And while we are at it, make each other wrong, and 25 others too. That's the kind of "help" I have come to expect from you.

I get on the 223 threads and mess with carpetman because he is easy to mess with, and he actually helps me make my argument points.

Woody scares me, and he's your buddy, and you exhibit many of his character traits. I want nothing else to do with Woody. I'm sure there is a medical term for his condition full of case studies in something neurological that means something to someone. The only thing it means to me is RUN.

KB

Laughing my ass off. I think you're medical conditions leans very close to Narcissistic personality disorder.

Glad you're happy Ruger fixed some of the things. You know they have much heavier barrels then when they first came out. Their accuracy came and when in rifle series and years production..kind of like a sinew wave.

Carpetman is a really nice guy. I know him personally. He does believe he is a comedian. You have understand him and his ways.

Apparently you've pissed Woody off because he's been a super friend to me, in fact of all the years I've know him I've never had even a hint of fight with him.

So quit arguing with me and listen to the stuff that I do know. Like everyone else on the planet I don't know everything. If I did I sure would be wasting my time on forums.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
So quit arguing with me and listen to the stuff that I do know. Like everyone else on the planet I don't know everything. If I did I sure would be wasting my time on forums.

OK

The truth is - about carpetman - I agree with you. I already figured that he's a good character, and at times I've felt bad about messing with him. He's just so provocative and easy, mostly I think because he takes himself and his opinions so seriously. I have already decided to take it easier on him, but it's been intended as and has been fun to mess with him. Really, I do think well of him, mostly, but I am a little hesitant to admit it.

It's too bad that Woody is pissed off at me. My attitude is that he will get over it - or not, whichever is OK with me. It's his problem, and as far as him becoming a problem for me in the future, I'm going to do whatever it takes to avoid that, and the basic rule I have to accomplish that is to not deal with him ever again in any fashion. Life is far better that way, not only re him, but anyone that I sense is like him. IMO, it takes a very "special" person to understand Woody and to get along with him in the long run, and I ain't in that catagory.

KB

Yes, I too think all "Military" rifles should be banned from hunting.

I even felt this way in my Previous Life, when those danged Bolt Rifle Trash guys, started using them confounded repeating Mausers, instead of True Hunting rifles like Single Shot drop locks and Double Rifles...

I guess it will never end. Next it will be Phase Plasma rifles in the 40 Watt Range...

Actually I have used most every kind of action for a hunting rifle.

Once upon a time 2 of my favorite hunting rifles were a Ruger No1 in 45/70 and an H&K 91.
I took them on most every hunt.

And most everyone on AR knows how much I like hunting with a double rifle...

I have also done a fair amount of hunting for turkeys and for javellina with a 223 AR and I have taken deer, antelope, pigs and turkey with the 91.
I have even shot deer and pigs with a muzzle loader and killed deer with a bow...

I do not care what king of a gun a fella hunts with as long as it is powerful enough for the game and is properly sighted in and he acts as a sportsman.

After all most rifles, regardless of action, were at one time, some kind of "Military" rifle, except for maybe the Double Rifle...

JohnS

To answer your original question, I have researched a big bore AR several times over the years.

I have never heard of any problems with feeding, and the accuracy and killing power of the 450 Bushmaster, it has been well praised by everybody that has used one, whose reports I have read.

That is the way I would go no doubt.

I would probably get the 16" version, as I like short rifles for this kind of hunting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SmokinJ:
If you're talking about brass getting dented, getting mangled, all of this to the extreme, you're not talking about AR's you're talking about HK's, Valmets, Hakeems, Galils, etc. The AR doesn't mangle brass nor does it throw it into the net county. If you can find brass from your lever action or your bolt action you can find your ejected AR brass.

Your right about other autos mangling brass more.

Your wrong about losing brass you well not beable to eject one in to your hand with any auto and most autos throw the farther the a bolt gun or lever.

When I am hunting and have to shoot fast I normally don't bother looking for the brass.

But its the times that you only take one shot that you can save the brass. Most of my game is kill with the frist shot and no follow up.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I shoot resized 429 300 gr bullets in my 416 at 2600fps and they seem to hold to gather just fine.

But then only shot some deer with them.

Resizing them like that is easier when using soft bullets.

"hold to gather just fine" Whaaatt - do you mean they exited the muzzel intact? Spoken like a true 22 cal centerfire advocate.

KB

I mean they hold togather on deer sized anmals I shot. The one I shot head on in the chest had a exit out the rear ham.

If thats not enough for you get a life.

And where did you come up with I am a true 22 cal advocate.