In 308/7.62mm rifles, Random Thoughts, I just have not seen the reliability in the AR platforms, I want, so far.

I have shot a few that showed very high pressure, and malfunctions, with 308/7.62 ammo that shot great in other rifles.

Just a few days ago a friends AR 308 showed high pressure with commercial Match ammo.

I have shot a SCAR. My concern with it is there is too much "plastic" [call it polymer or what ever you like, if it "ain't" steel or wood, it is plastic to me], in the reciever.

I just do not think these guns will survive hard service or years of use.

In actual service use, the M14 has been very reliable. From Vietman to the desert today, you just do not hear about any major reliability problems with them.
They were, and still are widely used in the sandbox even today.

The SOCOM uses a modified gas system and a muzzle break, and IMHO Springfkield just did not get it right.

I have shot 3 different ones, with ball and 2 other kinds of High Quality commercial ammo, and the best I could get was 5 to 6" at 100 yards. Most AK47's shoot better.

However all the 18" Bush Guns, and Scout Squads I have fired shot very good. As good as standard 22" M1-A's.

FN-FAL's usually shoot ok, and are reliable except in sand.

As I have stated before the H&K 91 is my favorite. They are accurate, and very reliable.

They can be changed form regular stocks to scope style stocks, to retractable stocks. They are all metal, and have a free floating barrel, are very east to scope, and do not have any bedding issues.

Depending on twist a 45-60 gr Barnes will give you both expansion and penetration.

Unless you are planning on taking on people with serious body armor, a Barnes will take out any threat.

quote:

Originally posted by artshaw: Depending on twist a 45-60 gr Barnes will give you both expansion and penetration. Unless you are planning on taking on people with serious body armor, a Barnes will take out any threat.

.

I have to say it, but shooting through body armor never entered my mine. That is till until recently. With Homeland security buying billions of rounds of HP, and targets of children and grandmothers in their kitchens, grandfathers in the garden, young mothers and children on the playground with the sole purpose of conditoning LE and military to fire on armed citizens not involved in criminal activity.

The photo's show them armed but in their homes and gardens.

During katrina there was the forcefull and unlawfull taking of firearms from citzens who just wanted to be able to protect themselves in their homes. I know several who were never able to get them back. When going to my neighbors place of busness I had a NY city cop make some noise about taking my ar 15 and roit gun. I made it clear that I was not his enemy, but that it would not be wise for him to become mine. He backed off when it was clear I would not.

There was also the stealing of watercraft with out compensation, most did not servive the rescue opperations. If you were uninsured you were screwed.

I hate to say it,but shooting through body armor is a very real concern. My father and one of my oldest friends were cops, I have shot with and trained with many who were LE and great people. I have always been a strong supporter of the people who put themselves in harmsway for us everyday. With that said, I am afraid with the way this country is heading there may be a time where shooting through Body armor may be a real concern.

450 nitro with all your years of serveing what do you make of this.



JD

Just to clear up an urban myth. HomeLand Security put out a RFQ for 223 ammo (best info is 3.5 million rounds) and has yest to receive a quote from any ammo maker.

quote:

Originally posted by artshaw: Just to clear up an urban myth. HomeLand Security put out a RFQ for 223 ammo (best info is 3.5 million rounds) and has yest to receive a quote from any ammo maker.

Several months back there was a order for several millon rounds of 40 sw hp. The order came to light when it showed up in the company's yearly report to the stock holders. According to several news sources homeland security has orded enough non nato compliant ammo to wage a war. Either they are expecting trouble or trying to dry up componets there/ by driving up the cost of ammo and the avaible across the board. There is talk of a a rfq for 8000 personial defensive rifles (AR15's) If the reorts are right and all orders are placed HLS has over the next 10 years put enough ammo in the pipeline to go supply ammo for 30 years at the rate of use during the last war.


JD

Please provide the source data for the 40 S&W ammo order, how many are "several million" specifically what company was the ammo ordered from, when, what agency etc..

The NRA says its BS. "Government agencies let orders for five year contracts to putchase ammo of many types for many agencies. The 5 year quantity is selected to get the best price." That's right from the mouth of an ILA rep.

There is no requirement for non-military agencies to use "NATO compliant ammo", in fact it would be stupid to do so. The objective is to end the fight now, without overpenetration and not to obey the stupid Geneva convention.

"Just because you are paranoid, does not mean they sre not out to get you"

"I read it on the Internet .... it MUST be true."
(Just like MSNBS and the NY Times eh ?"

As for the "talk" of 8000s PDRs being RFQed.... lets see the link to the source of this "fact".

There is also "talk" of the President being an African, UFOs abducting people, the CIA killing Kennedy and on and on.

Wal-Mart is missing a great new product introduction ..... tinfoil hats.

Most any rifle will shoot thropugh Kevlar. You cannot walk around wearing enough kevlar to stop a 223 bullet.

Hard plate armor will stop some rifle rounds.
It depends on the rating of the armor, vs the hardness and velocity of the bullet.

However you cannot cover yourself 100% with hard armor, yet.

Handguns are used in most shootings, yet they want to outlaw magazine fed rifles and high cap magazines, why???

Because they are a more effective tool for a person to defend thereself from an oppressive Govt.

As soon as they get mag fed rifles, and high cap magazines for rifles and handguns, outlawed, they will go for the handguns next.

If you saw Bidens comment on getting a shotgun, he said a DOUBLEBARREL shotgun.

Make no mistake, they want to outlaw pumps and semiauto shotguns as well.

quote:

As for the "talk" of 8000s PDRs being RFQed.... lets see the link to the source of this "fact".

http://www.freerepublic.com/fo...f-news/2983014/posts

Department of Homeland Security to Purchase 7,000 "Assault Weapons"

01/29/2013 5:41:28 AM PST · by Zakeet · 26 replies
Zero Hedge ^ | January 29, 2013 | Michael Krieger
The hypocrisy of the government knows no bounds. I have said repeatedly, and continue to say, that I am against all gun control at the moment because our government is extremely violent and not only do I not expect it to protect the American people in general, I believe it is far more concerned with protecting the status quo from the people. It has become crystal clear that the political and financial oligarchs are quite intentionally attempting to disarm the populace while arming themselves to the teeth in anticipation of some horrible economic event they know is inevitable. From The...

So going back to the OP's original post, here is what I think is the best choice for a PDR, ie a Personal Defensive Rifle for most people.

A quality AR15, with a 16" barrel, and the retractable stock, with multiple positions to adjust length.
I would want a flattop, with quality BUIS [backup iron sights] folding iron sights.
I prefer a 1 in 7 twist barrel chambered to shoot ALL 223/5.56 ammo, chrome lined, for longer life.

I would want some sort of Optical sight, or even better two Optical Sights.

There is NO DOUBT that a 1x Red Dot is the fastest sight for up close and adequate out to 200 yards or so. Doenside is, most of them are battery dependant.
A Leupold CQT 1 to 3x is a good sight, I used one on a work gun for several years, indoors to 300 yards it worked good, and is not battery dependant.

There is also NO DOUBT that a little magnification, say 3 to 6 power is "more betta" for precision shooting from 200 yards and out.

The 3.5 and 4x ACOG sights are very hard to beat.

Also, fixed scopes are more rugged than variable scopes. But a quality variable in the 1.5x to 4 or 6x is hard to beat for an all round sight.

The Elcan sight that is 1x OR 4x looks like a good sight but I have not used one.

Then I would want a BUNCH of magazines, and a BUNCH of ammo, and plenty of cleaning gear and plenty of BreakFree.

Then some quality training.

Then a spare rifle set up, or two...

Also I would want a Laser/light mounted, and a second light mounted. When you need a light, you need it Badly, so I always have at least two mounted on the rifle.

You need to be able to identify what you are shooting in the dark.

The laser is extremely good for low light, and for running/moving targets in low light.

The ACOG's are nice sights until you need the rifle for close fast shots and then the ACOG is more in the way than helpful. The Elcan SpectorDR is Dick Tracy cool in concept but in real life it sucks! I bought one of these when they first came out and couldn't have been anymore disappointed in it. The sight would actually wobble on it's mount. It was useless at targets over 75 yards out because the mount would not hold zero. I hear the guy's in theater can't stand them either and for the same reasons.

I agree about the battery issue on the red dot sights but that can be over come with scheduled replacement. One really nice thing about them are they usually co-witness with the BUIS' so you have a very quick and reliable back up.

quote:

Originally posted by artshaw:
Please provide the source data for the 40 S&W ammo order, how many are "several million" specifically what company was the ammo ordered from, when, what agency etc..

The NRA says its BS. "Government agencies let orders for five year contracts to putchase ammo of many types for many agencies. The 5 year quantity is selected to get the best price." That's right from the mouth of an ILA rep.

There is no requirement for non-military agencies to use "NATO compliant ammo", in fact it would be stupid to do so. The objective is to end the fight now, without overpenetration and not to obey the stupid Geneva convention.

"Just because you are paranoid, does not mean they sre not out to get you"

"I read it on the Internet .... it MUST be true."
(Just like MSNBS and the NY Times eh ?"

As for the "talk" of 8000s PDRs being RFQed.... lets see the link to the source of this "fact".

There is also "talk" of the President being an African, UFOs abducting people, the CIA killing Kennedy and on and on.

Wal-Mart is missing a great new product introduction ..... tinfoil hats.

http://www.foxnews.com/politic...ing-so-many-bullets/

Link to fox news It gave a possible explanation of the purchase per the gov. Other sources suggest that is enough for 500 rounds per week for every LEO in the country for the term of the order.
Why buy HP ammo, when target/pratice ammo would be much cheaper. Most world class competive shooters don't use 2000+ rounds a month.

http://www.infowars.com/dhs-su...american-gun-owners/
link to artical on targets. other interesting links contained in the article.

Lets recap/ large purchase of ammo that can only be used on the homeland (5 rounds for every citzen), training programs to make it eaiser to shoot grandmother types in their kitchens, lets not forget the big push to dismantle our gun rights aand ability to defend our selves. Don't forget the use of drones in a hunt for a enemy of the state. And a growing anger in the middle class. I must be a mental midget to be concerned about this combination of purchases, events and political goals of the liberal left.

Please offer a better explation, That way I won't have to be concerned about the state of the nation my grandchildren will grow up in.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Allan

I have shot several 30cal Carbines over the years. With 30 round magazines they have been
the MOST unreliable Military rifle I have ever fired, bar NONE.

With USGI 15 rounders they shoot OK, but they seriously lack "power" when compared to the
5.56 or the 7.62x39. Especially when SP ammo is used in each.

My brother in law has one now and I shoot it on a regular basis.

Also I have been friends with a few WWII veterans and a few Korean Veterans, many that are
"gun people" and all of them related to me that the 30cal carbine was nearly worthless,
when they used in in ACTUAL COMBAT. ALL of them to a MAN, got a hold of a Garand ASAP.

Except for one of my good shooting buddies. He went to a Garand in Korea, but when he was
in Vietnam, Republic of, he was a crew Chief in the Air Force. On the Air Base He used a
Thompson in 45 ACP. Upon his arrival he traded a bottle of whiskey for it.

After 3 [or 4 I cannot remember] tours, he traded it to his replacement for a bottle of whiskey.

Now I will admit that the 30 Cal Carbine is a very handy little rifle...

But IMHO it cannot hold a candle to an AR or an AK, again IMHO of course.

I don't want to "shoot through walls" with a defensive arm.

30-round magazines are often unreliable but I have sorted out what makes many of them so
and have applied corrections.

I started with more than two dozen magazines
and the ones I regarded as "problems" are now someone else's problem or sent to japan in
squashed bent pieces and are now part of the floor of the japanese vehicle you drive.

I bought my 30round mags at a time when they were $4.95 each or 5 for $20.
Now a days they are more than that EACH.
And I blew off a bunch of ammo proving they were reliable after I "tuned" each one.

I do not trust my life to a magazine lightly
and I eliminated those I could not trust.

THE issue with a carbine is that it that using
Genevia convention ammunition those round nose bollets go smoothly through, no "high velocity splash" like you'd expect with a Garand

With soft nose ammo it expands to 1/2" or better and will still out penetrate
most pistol ammo regardless of bullet construction.

I load a mix of ball and SP because I don't plan on missing much with a red dot sight
inside of 50 yards and I don't expect to miss at all at any "indoor range", and as
someone has mentioned "kevlar" I know that factory Carbine ball goes through threat
level IIIb kevlar well enough that if you were wearing such kevlar and someone
were shooting at you with 30carbine ball I wouldn't want to be hiding behind you.

it will penetrate BOTH doors of a 1974 Oldsmobile and the pig carcass we had in the
drivers seat. I was amused to discover that one of the bullets made a through and
through on the power window motor on the entry side of the car and still exited
the other side of the car through it's own hole

another thing I like about the carbine is that unlike an AR shooter I expect to have my
eyesight after I fire my first few shots

Oh you can see the muzzle flashes from a 30Carbine, but you'd better be in an unlit cave
or looking for it on a moonless night...

Oh, and I expect to have my hearing after shooting it.
Shooting a garand or a any 7.62x51 or 5.56x45 battle rifle? in an enclosed space?
You are kidding right?

if I were LOOKING for "trouble" Yes I'd prefer something other than an M1 Carbine,
but the question was about "DEFENSIVE rifle"

Defensive to me is standing my ground and MAKING "trouble" want to go away... quickly

"Defensive" is Not using an OFFENSIVE "battle rifle" that can make doorways in
concrete block walls and shoot through both sides of my house AND my neighbor's
house 100yards away... after perforating my pickup truck



I was told by my grandfather that if I ever find myself "in a fair fight" that I'm doing it wrong

Allan

Since you do not miss much, let me give you a little hint. I have "seen" several people shot with a 223 and 55gr SP or 55 gr Ballistic Silvertip, and a few with 69gr HP, and never had a pass through on a body hit...

ALL were DRT.

I have shot a fair amount of 30 cal Carbine.
Truth is, compared to an AR15 in 223, a 30 cal carbine is "waste of skin".

Sorry Truth is, what it is...

Do not be offended, it is not personal, it is just fact...

Also, I can say IF/WHEN you are in a gunfight you do not "hear" your own gunshots. Muzzle flash, I never noticed it.

Even durring "intensive training", sound and flash is just not a factor.

quote:

Also, I can say IF/WHEN you are in a gunfight you do not "hear" your own gunshots. Muzzle flash, I never noticed it.

Even durring "intensive training", sound and flash is just not a factor

+1

Don't think I ever said we should not be watching Obama's every move and be concerned.

Quoting sources like the Free Republic is about the same as quoting the Huffington Post. Both are rags designed to stir up fear and paranoia among their followers with different objectives.

AS I said the ammo contracts are for a FIVE year period. That means delivery takes place over FIVE years. None of you Chicken Littles have provided a single verified copy of a firm order or even an RFQ to back up your "sky is falling" fears. Regardless of who runs the country, Government agencies will continue to buy weapons and ammo in large quantities. To impute some evil plan to shoot granny making the pot roast makes you sound like a fool.

Embedded in your "doomsday prepper" screen play is also the assumption that all LEOs, National Guard and Reserve Units will happily shoot down their fellow Americans in the street based on orders from a bunch of Loons in DC. I have a bit more faith in people who have sworn to uphold the Constitution and obey LAWFUL orders from their superiors.

Happily there are very, very few Timothy McVeigh types running around, althogh the Internet seems to attract them like flies to a dead cow.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Also, I can say IF/WHEN you are in a gunfight you do not "hear" your own gunshots. Muzzle flash, I never noticed it.

Even durring "intensive training", sound and flash is just not a factor

+1

REMEMBER: DEFENSIVE situation

a) there is a difference between perception "in the heat of the moment" and permanant hearing damage.

While you don't "hear" your own gunfire you do hear the ringing afterwards.

b)In what bizarre alternate universe is revealing my position, (presumeably in a situation where
I am the defender in an assault operation) by either report or flash to MY tactical advantage?

When "assaulting" (the agressor/offensive side of the arguement) flash and noise CAN give you a
psychological advantage over the defenders, I don't believe this applies the same way to the
defensive shooter in the same scenario.

making the bad guy DEAD does, and for that I want to minimize unnecissary distractions.

In an ideal circumstances I hear them making their entrance and I fire first, effectively, from
cover and the fight ends before it begins. But barring that "ideal circumstance", why advertise
where I am by making muzzle flashes?

I ask again, If the bad guys aren't utterly and permanantly eliminated as threats why reveal my
position that they MAY be unaware of by making big unambiguous muzzle flashes?

Personally I'd think highly of a supressed 22LR semi-auto. No noise, no flash, just multiple
bullet holes where they will do the most good without any warning at all.

DEFENSIVE Situation, DEFENSIVE tactics

To me muzzle flashes simply give away precise knowledge of my location to my opponent.
and frankly I don't want to give up ANYTHING other than solid hits to someone who is
potentially trying to kill me. (if they weren't why would I be shooting at them?)

I own and load the 223Rem chambered semi-autos
and would use one of I were "out and about" but not particularly expecting trouble where
I might temporarily need to use "offensive tactics" to gain a more advantageous position
to allow shifting to a more defensive posture.

Outdoors my own noise is not reflected back at me like it would be indoors.

But I also load my 223 ammunition for semi-auto rifles with an eye towards minimizing
muzzle flash. again why give away my own position to my opponents unnecissarily?

quote:

Originally posted by artshaw:
Don't think I ever said we should not be watching Obama's every move and be concerned.

Quoting sources like the Free Republic is about the same as quoting the Huffington Post. Both are rags designed to stir up fear and paranoia among their followers with different objectives.

AS I said the ammo contracts are for a FIVE year period. That means delivery takes place over FIVE years. None of you Chicken Littles have provided a single verified copy of a firm order or even an RFQ to back up your "sky is falling" fears. Regardless of who runs the country, Government agencies will continue to buy weapons and ammo in large quantities. To impute some evil plan to shoot granny making the pot roast makes you sound like a fool.

Embedded in your "doomsday prepper" screen play is also the assumption that all LEOs, National Guard and Reserve Units will happily shoot down their fellow Americans in the street based on orders from a bunch of Loons in DC. I have a bit more faith in people who have sworn to uphold the Constitution and obey LAWFUL orders from their superiors.

Happily there are very, very few Timothy McVeigh types running around, althogh the Internet seems to attract them like flies to a dead cow.

I don't realy know what to tell you other than to do your own research.

Fox news reported it. I saw it reported on several other sources I trust ( not just the wacko ones), I saw it in the companys yearly report. (Even thought about buying some of the stock). The ammo as been ordered!!!!. My thoughts about the order was that it was a way for the antis to dry up componets and drive up ammo cost.

The other link took you to the company selling the targets. Explain why any law enforcement agency would need a target of old folks, or of a young women with child, a small boy holding firearms in a defensive stance.

I have a lot of respect for LEOs, but there are police chiefs from several major cities that are before congress working to take away our terrible black guns.

I live a mile outside New Orleans.I have seen what it looks like when it all breaks down. I have seen a total disreguard for the constitution by LE. After the storm NOPD was takeing firearms by force from homeowners who chose to stay. They would break into fully secured homes (with out warrents) and they would take firearm collections. Very few of those collections have been returned. NOPD even swarmed a 80 year old lady when she refused to leave. That made the national news.

I was told (but have not veified it) Mississippi state troopers were searching cars at the state line and takeing firearm collections as people were leaveing the city after the levee broke..

Don't believe for a second that only 9 people were shot after the storm. Our goverment is not aways forth comeing with the truth.
For your information I don't trust either party any more. There is very little honor in DC. There is no regard for the truth by the national media.


If they keep spending money like they do now, sooner or later the bottom will fall out. The dollar will lose the it position as the gold standard. They won't be able to barrow the money keep it all going. Basic services will grind to a halt. There is less than a weeks supply of food in most large cities. There will be civil unrest. If these clowns are still in power, That sir is when they will try the gun grab.


I am not a prepper and I am not digging a hole for a bunker. I am moveing away from the city. I will have a garden and a well and enough firepower to keep what I got ( things I want anyway). I hope I am wrong about all of this. My little 10 or 20 acre farm will be a good retirement either way and fun place for the grandkids even if the shit doesn't hit the fan. It will be a safety net either way

I am not a fool, and have personaly seen what it looks like when it all breaks down. You are welcome to keep your head in the sand.


JD

Question. Defensive rifle...defense from what?

quote:

Originally posted by The Metalsmith:
Question. Defensive rifle...defense from what?

Thats up to you decide.

Just some reasons I have a well round firearm collection. Near New Orleans In the last 10 years: I have seen personally, or seen reported in the local news, or it happened to me or in my neighborhood.

WE have had Home Invasions. The last one a couple of months ago. The 3 scum bags, one of them armed with AK 47 or a sks with after market mag. They kicked in a side garage door and were trying to get through the kitchen. The home owner who had retrieved his rifle fired on them, as they tried to access the house The thugs left dumping a mag, shooting blindly through the walls.


We have had riots and looting after Katrina. I live a mile outside New Orleans. We did not flood. The rioters crossed the parish line on foot , came down the hwy breaking into pawn shops and liq shops. They set several building on fire. They were turned around due to the armed response off several business owners, they fired several warning shots over the looters. Good thing the next shop was Elliot's gun shop.


After the storm it came to light ,that there were several shooting/ murders/cover ups by NOPD. The cops were arrested, court trial resulted in convictions 2 or 3 cases. There was a total disregard for the constitution in the weeks following the storm. We were lock out of our homes, Private gun collections taken. After things had settled down,Unless you had proof of purchase You could not retrieve your collection.It did not matter if the guns did not show up on the hot list. A buddy of mine lost his entire collection of shotguns and deer rifles that dated back to his grandfather. He presented the receipt that he was given. He was told that that was not sufficient to retrieve his fire arms.

I know how critical the rescue efforts were,I know how hard the first responders worked,and how many lives they saved. If you are able to fend for yourself what right do they have to keep from your home and to take your firearms and boats with out due course of law.

Crossing into New Orleans 4 weeks after Katrina to check on a business, I had a NY state trooper make some noise about taking my AR. I made it clear he was in violation of state and federal law ,and that it would not be in his interest to precede. He back down realizing I would not.

JD

forgot to ask about lights
gotta have a light

A 1911 in .45 ACP is all I would want.

I don't see the need for a defense rifle. If I were to consider a long gun for defense, I would not specifically designate one for such use. Rather, I would just keep some buckshot next to the .410s we have lying around for snakes (but I don't).

But to answer the question I would use a Class 3 subgun in 9mm. I would use my Uzi over my Mac 10 because it is a much better shouldering weapon. I also have an M16 registered in both long and short barrels but I'd still take the Uzi from a portability, ease of use and reliability standpoint.

my go to gun for this need is a mp5k with double magazines and surefire light, I keep in on top of my class three body armor because if I need the gun I will need the body armor too. I have all the other types of rifles listed in my collection but its hard to beat the MP5K loaded with plus p duty loads for this type of need.

A MP5 is a nice a handy weapon. But sadly its not available to most.

The ones I shot have been accurate enough but one still is dealing with lack of pentration.

Having seen this "stuff" used in the real world first hand I can say this. For WROL/SHTF situations... A shotgun does not hold enough ammo. A 9mm, hand gun or carbine or submachine gun, just "AIN'T" got enough punch.

A 223/5.56, with Sporting expanding ammo is a most effective gun...IMHO of course...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Having seen this "stuff" used in the real worla first hand I can say this. For WROL/SHTF situations... A shotgun does not hold enough ammo. A 9mm, hand gun or carbine or submachine gun, just "AIN'T" got enough punch.

A 223/5.56, with Sporting expanding ammo is a most effective gun...IMHO of course...

+1

A choice between the Para FAL with an Eotech HWS & 7 magazines of 20 rounds or the AR15 also with Eotech HWS & 7 magazines of 28 rounds.
Either will work from close in to 300yds - after that the FAL carries a tad more authority.

The 308 has a lot more authority "avialable". but it does depend on what ammo is selected.

The 308 is one of my most favorite rounds.

But there is a BIG difference between the effectiveness of ball vs sporting rounds.

Same goes for the 223/5.56, "Spoering" ammo is a lot more effective than ball ammo.

Green Tip penetrates pretty good, but no better IMHO that barnes X bullets or Trophy Bonded Federal 62gr Tactical ammo.
Out to at least 300 yards 223 sporting ammo like 55 gr Ballistic Tip, with hits on people is MOST effective, equal to 308 ball.

BUT you put the "same" concept, say 150 Federal Ballistic Tips or Winchester 168 Ballistic Silvertips in a 308 and out to 850 yards you are shooting a death ray...

Need more penetration, and extreme terminal performance, in the same package, shoot 165gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws, or 150 to 180 Barnes X or WW Fail Safe.

I have tested all of these bullets shooting a lot of "stuff" from ballistic armor, to all sorts of "glass", building materials, vehicles, and I have killed a lot of animals with them, as well

223/5.56 vs 308/7.62, the JOB you are trying to do can depend a LOT on exactly the bullet you are doing.

Everything EQUAL the 308 is a bigger hammer.

BUT with the proper ammo in a 223, you can add to its capability and effectiveness.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Allan

I have shot several 30cal Carbines over the years. With 30 round magazines they have been the MOST unreliable Military rifle I have ever fired, bar NONE.

With USGI 15 rounders they shoot OK, but they seriously lack "power" when compared to the 5.56 or the 7.62x39. Especially when SP ammo is used in each.

My brother in law has one now and I shoot it on a regular basis.

Also I have been friends with a few WWII veterans and a few Korean Veterans, many that are "gun people" and all of them related to me that the 30cal carbine was nearly worthless, when they used in in ACTUAL COMBAT. ALL of them to a MAN, got a hold of a Garand ASAP.

Except for one of my good shooting buddies. He went to a Garand in Korea, but when he was in Vietnam, Republic of, he was a crew Chief in the Air Force. On the Air Base He used a Thompson in 45 ACP. Upon his arrival he traded a bottle of whiskey for it.

After 3 [or 4 I cannot remember] tours, he traded it to his replacement for a bottle of whiskey.

Now I will admit that the 30 Cal Carbine is a very handy little rifle...

But IMHO it cannot hold a candle to an AR or an AK, again IMHO of course.

the trick to a reliable 30round mag it to take all ammo you expect to run through it and seat the bullets 0.050" deeper than SAAMI max

Because of their curved shape the 30rd mags are sensitive to Cartridge Over All Length.

Spot me 15minutes at my bench with a press and seating die and I'll guaran-damed-tee 30round mags "M2 ready".

Personally I have not had a magazine related stoppage with my 30round mags in years.

Enough that I will trust my life to them.

Cooper's concept of the Scout bolt rifle in .308 with a Leupold scout scope at 2.5x with plenty of eye relief has a lot of merit.
Gun laws and restrictions can limit choices depending on the locale.
As semi autos have become more dependable. I would choose a semi auto Scout rifle in a discreet and effective package. As a hunting rifle disguised as the Benelli R1 in .308, no longer made in that caliber. Approximately $850 or less. You would have to locate an older used model. It utilizes the ARGO system which made Benelli a dependable name the last 25years. Acquire several 10 round magazines. Acquire ammo to your specs and purpose. Talley quick detachable rings with a secondary scope for more precise long range work. The Scout scope will be the primary. Also open sights using the XS big dot sights with rear peep. 16.5" barrel. If you want to spend the money install a carbon rapped barrel to lighten the load but most important to limit bullet climb as the barrel gets hot from semi auto firing greatly enhancing the accuracy and effectiveness.
Since no Geneva convention rules apply and quality ammo available makes all weapons more effective.
Some... still believe the 5.56 is too light against serious penetration, wind deflection or safety against predators.
The next logical solution is the .308 but for some it is too much, especially for lighter built individuals and with any kind of sustained fire.

If that is the case, rebarrel same rifle to .243 Win. IT will lighten the recoil and increase secondary response time. Personally I think the 6mm/.243 is the perfect caliber for most scenarios with average shooters under duress.

Over 16,000 rounds were spent in Vietnam per kill. High capacity rapid fire in most circumstances, produce lots of noise pollution, muzzle flash/target indicator,inaccuracy spray and pray, psychological empowerment....... all futile.
Get 1,000rnds of the real stuff, 3,000 for practice. Could be reloading parts and equipment A couple of extra firing pins and springs and you are set for life.
Be ready to hunt for what you need.

Well, not for the first time, I'm not swimming with the crowd on this one. I freely admit that a .223 or larger 15 platform is a fine weapon selection. However, these days, and since I've let my CCL expire, I carry in my car (legally in Texas) and besides various pistols mostly in 9 mm or .45, my DEFENSIVE WEAPON of choice is a Marlin 18 plus inch barreled .45-70 loaded with fairly light hollowpoint rounds.

Unlike many of the blood slingers in here, I REALLY would prefer not to have to kill anyone in the future. It may not really help but having been on the wrong end of a 1911 a time or two, I think that a .45 caliber hole MAY make someone stop their offensive actions without dying. If so, that is a good result. If not, they made a bad choice.

No, a lever action ain't a good military weapon, nor is it good for suppressing fire, but I'm not planning on doing any of those and if I can't get it done with the first 6 rounds, I'm probably dead anyway.

The big advantage this weapon choice has is that it does not subject me to many of the incredibly stupid laws in Cal and a few other states. It won't help in NJ or NY but I'm not planning on driving there anytime soon.

Familiarity with your defensive weapon goes a long ways. Practice, practice, practice and be sure to make the mental decision that when it is time to shoot, then shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Well, not for the first time, I'm not swimming with the crowd on this one. I freely admit that a .223 or larger 15 platform is a fine weapon selection. However, these days, and since I've let my CCL expire, I carry in my car (legally in Texas) and besides various pistols mostly in 9 mm or .45, my DEFENSIVE WEAPON of choice is a Marlin 18 plus inch barreled .45-70 loaded with fairly light hollowpoint rounds.

Unlike many of the blood slingers in here, I REALLY would prefer not to have to kill anyone in the future. It may not really help but having been on the wrong end of a 1911 a time or two, I think that a .45 caliber hole MAY make someone stop their offensive actions without dying. If so, that is a good result. If not, they made a bad choice.

No, a lever action ain't a good military weapon, nor is it good for suppressing fire, but I'm not planning on doing any of those and if I can't get it done with the first 6 rounds, I'm probably dead anyway.

The big advantage this weapon choice has is that it does not subject me to many of the incredibly stupid laws in Cal and a few other states. It won't help in NJ or NY but I'm not planning on driving there anytime soon.

Familiarity with your defensive weapon goes a long ways. Practice, practice, practice and be sure to make the mental decision that when it is time to shoot, then shoot.

My choice for the truck is a ruger 375r alaskan. A bit heavy but i shoot the 375 (h&h and ruger) better than anything else i own.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
P-Dog, I didn't see "all of the above" as an answer?

Yeah, me too. Why can't we make multiple choices. I would almost always answer any of the questions with multiple answers.

quote:

Originally posted by HalS:

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
P-Dog, I didn't see "all of the above" as an answer?

Yeah, me too. Why can't we make multiple choices. I would almost always answer any of the questions with multiple answers.

Any working gun and ammo is better then no gun.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
My concern with it is there is too much "plastic" [call it polymer or what ever you like, if it "ain't" steel or wood, it is plastic to me], in the reciever.

I just do not think these guns will survive hard service or years of use.

I too prefer steel but I will tell you that an aluminum, plastic, and fiberglass M16 or M4 will last for decades. The steel barrel will rust, the steel bolt might crack after 6000-8000 or more rounds, and other small steel parts may wear and rust but the alloy receiver and the synthetic grip and stock will go on and on.

quote:

the alloy receiver and the synthetic grip and stock will go on and on.

I did see a picture of an M16 that we left in Nam. That had a large hole corroded in the front left of the mag well.

When you say DEFENSIVE, I'm thinking under 50 yards. I'd rather a shotgun with #4 Buck, but if I have to have a rifle, I'll take my M1 Carbine and a 30 round mag.... or my AR.... or my Garand.. or my 30-30... whatever is handy will work..

quote:

I wonder how long it would take for the "social fabric" to start to break down, once the lights go out?

LT

Just consider the East Coast blackout of a few years ago.

The answer (depending on location) is, being generous and forgiving, hours. Being a bit more cynical and realistic, under an hour (again, depending on location).

When the lights go out, the stores can't make change, the ATM is uncooperative and the gasoline won't pump, things get hairy pretty quickly. The more densely populated an area is, the less time that area has before some people freak out from fear and others freak out because, well, because they are freaks seizing a golden opportunity.

I consider "defensive" as being generally in the same room with me or, at most, within 100 yards if a mob scene.

But only if the mob is "Un-armed Librarians for Hillary" and actually headed for the Dairy Queen down the street ... not my house.

Anything else and the way of wisdom would be to GTFO, rather than standing and fighting.

Avoiding the fight is the only guarantee of winning it.

I have a 9mm Calico Light Weapon Systems Liberty 100 ... which has a standard magazine capacity of 100 rounds ... sitting within arms reach. It's loaded and good to go. God willing, it will finish 2016 with a suppressor on the end.

It will certainly "get the job done" within that 100 yard radius. I have two extra magazines, boosting my total "front porch load-out" to 300 rounds.

In a purely defensive situation, if I ever need 300 rounds of ANYTHING, I also need it to come out of the barrel of a GAU-8.

If I were trekking using a topo map to avoid something both evil and huge, I'd carry my AR and my .22 break-down rifle. With the proper ammunition, both can use the same suppressor to good effect. The AR gains an advantage should I need to replace a magazine on the trail because the Calico uses a decidedly non-standard magazine. If it could be modified to accept, say, Glock magazines, it would be in my backpack instead of the AR. A well-aimed 9mm is a realistic choice out to at least 600 yards. That makes it viable at AR distances ... but tossing a somewhat larger chunk of metal. At that distance, neither one of them is going to defeat body armor ... or any other sort, for that matter ... so the velocity that a pistol caliber bullet gives up to the small bore rifle no longer matters.

If I need something bigger, badder, faster and farther, we are no longer talking about defensive use of a firearm.

I do not need and, in this semi urban area, can not use, a 30-06 or even a .308 in my living room.

I love me some M1 carbine (NOT rifle), but even it is too much inside my house.

As a civilian, I need to keep any round fired inside my home inside my home. 9mm jhp works for that, as does .410 ... either of which will raise all kinds of ruckus within the 23 feet that is the longest shot I have in my house.

I've shot a raccoon at that distance. The 5 rounds of 000 buck in the .410 entered the 'coon just behind the front shoulder (broadside). The 'coon tipped over, gave a quick twitch and exhaled one last time.

The 000 didn't exit.

Extrapolating that out to slightly bigger (but non-furry) game in my living room, that works for me.