I'll just name a few - Rock River Arms, DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, Colt, Armilite, and apparantly many, many others to choose from. It's bewildering, especially since supposidely the parts are interchangable.

Let's limit the question to forged receivers, and one style - I think the A2 with a std trigger, to simplify the comparisons.

Is there really a difference in the factory assembled lowers, or is it just a matter of opinion, and the right answer is to buy whichever is on sale or the lowest price?

My second question: are the parts really interchangable?

KB

there's 2 basic things TODAY, though in history, there was a third. pins and buffer
large pin or small pin - which means, roughly, colt, and everything else.

my advice, don't buy a colt due to large pins,,, just save yourself the trouble

next is buffer commercial or military

get commercial, again, save yourself the trouble

You could throw in piston guns and the old school colts..

as for forged receiver or not.. you do understand that there is NO meaningful difference in finished product, right? machined from billet or machined from a forging makes no meaningful difference, other than a preference. all billets are at one time or another, a CASTING.. (boy, that pisses off some folks)

if i were buying a lower (and by which, i assume you mean complete lower, rather than stripped) you are going into a false savings - buying the lower, then the upper, means, basically, you have no one to turn to if the gun doesn't function or is inaccurate.

i would likely buy either a bushmaster/r15 or RRA or Mp15 .. but a complete gun, if i bought a buffer gun .. with collapsible stock, not a2.

if i bought ONE 5.56 gun, it would be the ruger, hands down, because i HATE buffer noise.

in effect, all the lowers are "the same" and the trigger is going to be the HUGE differentiation between them. No, not all lowers are of equal quality, however, unless you buy the complete rifle, it WILL be a crap shoot.

Thanks Jeffe, for the info. It's so confusing, and I have been messing with rifles a long time, but always bolt action rifles.

I'm gaining on it - slowly. I have several friends with AR15s plus some with the AR in 308. I helped a friend last summer by handloading some 308 ammo for him to shoot on a caribou hunt, with his Armliite. I loaded three different bullets in his new brass. I was impressed at how easy it was to get an exceptionally accurate load. One of the first three loads did the trick, first time at the range. I made up another batch for him to take hunting. I was sorta pleased that he informed me that those particular handloads were the most accurate ammo he had shot in that rifle. Maybe, it was just luck, but I like to think not.

Anyway, I can see it's gonna take some time for me to come up to speed with all this new-fangled stuff, so I just have to get used to pacing myself, and not make it complicated.

So, in that mode, I decided to make it simple for my first AR, and I just bought an AR 10 lower - the complete assembly. It will take 10 days or so to get it here. Next on the agenda is an Armilite upper in 338 Federal. That ought to keep me busy for a while, and in the meantime I can study the matter of the AR 15 some more, and take my time with it. The AR 10 in 338 federal ought to take care of any business I might encounter a need for it, and I have hundreds of range pick-up 308 brass, and a brand new set of 338 Federal dies. I feel a sort of relief at having made the committment.

I know - I started this discussion about the AR15, and go ahead and buy an AR 10. I realize this is heavy artilliary compared to the AR15. I just figured it is enough gun, so I can use it for all purposes, and thus get the most use out of it. I often hunt where there are brown bears, and if the rifle isn't too heavy or cumbersome, I'll tote it. I'm rather sure it will discourage a brown bear if need be. Those 225 gr TSX bullets are awesome. I mostly hunt from or near a boat or truck or four wheeler, near the beach or road, and sometimes from a stand, so a pound or so extra weight isn't a big deal. If weight is an issue, I don't mind the five round magazines. If I hike, I'll probably tote one on my handy bolt action thumpers.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
there's 2 basic things TODAY, though in history, there was a third. pins and buffer
large pin or small pin - which means, roughly, colt, and everything else.

my advice, don't buy a colt due to large pins,,, just save yourself the trouble

next is buffer commercial or military

get commercial, again, save yourself the trouble

You could throw in piston guns and the old school colts..

as for forged receiver or not.. you do understand that there is NO meaningful difference in finished product, right? machined from billet or machined from a forging makes no meaningful difference, other than a preference. all billets are at one time or another, a CASTING.. (boy, that pisses off some folks)

if i were buying a lower (and by which, i assume you mean complete lower, rather than stripped) you are going into a false savings - buying the lower, then the upper, means, basically, you have no one to turn to if the gun doesn't function or is inaccurate.

i would likely buy either a bushmaster/r15 or RRA or Mp15 .. but a complete gun, if i bought a buffer gun .. with collapsible stock, not a2.

if i bought ONE 5.56 gun, it would be the ruger, hands down, because i HATE buffer noise.

in effect, all the lowers are "the same" and the trigger is going to be the HUGE differentiation between them. No, not all lowers are of equal quality, however, unless you buy the complete rifle, it WILL be a crap shoot.

Amazing how misinformed you are Jeff. Not all billet receivers are machined from castings or forgings. Here's a piece from a billet company I won't mention:
Our TI25BDX™ Lower Receivers are precision machined on modern CNC machining centers from solid billet aluminum bar (not from a forging or a casting) for maximum strength, appearance and precision tolerances. Manufacturing is NOT sub-contracted to third party machine shops. If our name is on it, we make it here in our North Idaho manufacturing facility with complete control over all aspects of the manufacturing process. Each receiver undergoes numerous quality checks throughout the machining process to ensure unparalleled accuracy and dimensional tolerances.

So you are not totally correct on that. Another difference in AR 15 receivers besides the pin sizes are also the sizes of the pins for the hammer and trigger. There is the large and small pin in those that you have to be aware of.

If you buy a complete Colt you get one of the best AR 15's on the market and the one by which all others are judged by. They do have the different pin sizes. They came out with a new modular SP 901 rifle which you can make 308 or 223. Colt is starting to get back into things. They still arm our military with the M4 carbines.

Just like the 7.62x39 was never meant to be put on an AR 15 platform because it requires a curved magazine that is too curved to get to work 100 percent reliably in AR nor is the piston system never meant to be on an AR 15. There are just two many funny things they do to the AR 15. Sure one will run for you commercially, but try running a conversion in a harsh environment like combat. Why do you think out military after using the M16 direct impingement for over 45 years isn't using a piston system...and I"m not talking about the few HK 416's they have.

If one buys quality parts and studies a little bit before attempting assembling an AR 15 you have very very few problems with them. I've been building them for years, using quality parts, and have zero problems. Phooey on buying an over priced factory rifle just because of a warranty.

I presume when you are talking about commercial and military buffers you're talking about the extension tubes because there are two ways of measuring. One is an outside measure of the thread and the other is inside. Doesn't matter if you mix and match them. ON a AR 10 it doesn't matter at all because the AR 10 was never a military specced rifle.

I bet you don't even know about the new buffer, and I'm speaking of the buffer weight. Here's a pic of it and it the part in front of the recoil spring with the weights on it and spring on it with a bumper at the end. Requires no recoil spring and made for someone like you that doesn't like the sproing of the AR spring:



Don't forget Jeff we both have our own different opinions.

Damn, SJ, you must study this stuff all the time.

This stuff is complicated to me. Bolt actions can be complicated too, but I learned over time what I like, and what to avoid. The thing about bolt actions is that the tech doesn't change rapidly. It's gradual, and the good ideas are fairly easy to identify.

With this AR stuff, it seems different somehow to me. New ideas are rampant, and sorting it out is way beyond my ability and budget. For now, I'm keeping it tried and proven. Based on what I saw with my buddy's AR10, that thing is capable of real accuracy and reliability. I want some of that.

KB

BTW, back to the AR15, a friend told me today that he has a DPMS upper and lower he will sell me, presumably at a good price. The upper is one of those without the forward assist or the dust cover. Apparantly it's built a little beefier than the std receiver. I don't know what to think of that.

What is the deal/issues with that type of upper receiver?

KB

j.. thanks for the info on the jp rifles

as for being amazingly misinformed.. it funny how sometimes insults can boomerang on the insulting party.. all billets of aluminum start off as casting ... which was my point.

for a guy building his first one, AGAIN, there's no meaningful difference in billet v forging...

as for our government and piston guns.. and forgings... our government is known for low bidder, not high quality. *IF* a machined billet was far far far better than a forging, but cost 2times as much, and both fit within spec, which one do you think the government will buy the MOST of?

same for piston guns..

as for reliability... ask yourself this... what battle arm sees the worst conditions on the planet, with the worst maint, and some of the worst ammo...

and then ask yourself just how does the AK operate.. gas impingement or gas piston?

but we are now arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....

best to keep insults to a minimum and try to understand the other guy before running off at the mouth.. just saying

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
BTW, back to the AR15, a friend told me today that he has a DPMS upper and lower he will sell me, presumably at a good price. The upper is one of those without the forward assist or the dust cover. Apparantly it's built a little beefier than the std receiver. I don't know what to think of that.

What is the deal/issues with that type of upper receiver?

KB

sounds good.. look up what a dpms pair goes for retail and compare

I have an upper like that on my 458 SOCOM. Every once in a while I miss the forward assist but it hasn't been a real issue. But just as a what if, don't ever try banging the flash hider on something hard to rack the bolt the rest of the way. The firing pin can slam fire.

No, I didn't find out the hard way. Just a word of wisdom for an AR15 newbie.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
j.. thanks for the info on the jp rifles

as for being amazingly misinformed.. it funny how sometimes insults can boomerang on the insulting party.. all billets of aluminum start off as casting ... which was my point.

for a guy building his first one, AGAIN, there's no meaningful difference in billet v forging...

as for our government and piston guns.. and forgings... our government is known for low bidder, not high quality. *IF* a machined billet was far far far better than a forging, but cost 2times as much, and both fit within spec, which one do you think the government will buy the MOST of?

same for piston guns..

as for reliability... ask yourself this... what battle arm sees the worst conditions on the planet, with the worst maint, and some of the worst ammo...

and then ask yourself just how does the AK operate.. gas impingement or gas piston?

but we are now arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....

best to keep insults to a minimum and try to understand the other guy before running off at the mouth.. just saying

Jeff,

All metal products start as a casting. When they make iron and steel they melt the ore, and what ever other ingredient they are putting into the mix in the case of steel and pour ingots. If you're referring to that the receivers are castings that resemble the receivers and then they are machined to final form with all billet receiver, then you are wrong. I've seen them start with a rectangular piece of aluminum and put it into the CNC machine and hit the button and it machines out a nice new receiver. As to whether that rectangular piece of aluminum was was cast, extruded, or forged one can't say.

Now as for the AK 47, yeah very relialbe functioning rifle. As accurate as the M16? NO AS light as an M16? NO The current M rifle we are using today is just about as reliable. Putting a piston system on the M rifles isn't going to make it much more reliable to make a hoot of difference. You bought into the keyboard commando bullshit my friend.

I don't feel I insulted you, you just don't know as much about AR's as you think you do. I have many nonmenclature errors and the recent one was the commercial buffer and military buffer. You never answered if you were referring to the lower receiver extension tubes?
You didn't seem to know that there are two different trigger/hammer pin sizes. You're not up to date on what is out, like the JP buffer. One more thing, David Tubbs (and other's) make a square stock wound recoil spring that doesn't have the sproing sound....and you said you bought a Ruger because it doesn't make the spring sound..that's nuts. Now please don't take these as insults they are not. I'm trying to teach you a few things just as people have taught me.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I have an upper like that on my 458 SOCOM. Every once in a while I miss the forward assist but it hasn't been a real issue. But just as a what if, don't ever try banging the flash hider on something hard to rack the bolt the rest of the way. The firing pin can slam fire.

No, I didn't find out the hard way. Just a word of wisdom for an AR15 newbie.

Mossberg just recently got into the AR market. They consulted some experts on some questions that they had before they started building them. One was about the forward assist. One of the people they askes said that he was first initiated to the AR in the form of the M16 in Vietnam. He's been playing with and shooting them since then. His point was in all those years he only used the forward assist two or three times and out of those times it did't work or solve his problem. Mossberg elected to go without a forward assist and I think that is a great decision. Tell me why civilians need it? I'll tell you, because they have to have every whistle and bell on their AR's as the military. One has to have a bayonet lug, a flash hider, a million picatinny rails, an ACOG, a scops, angles adaptors for back up iron sights, you name it. A target shooter, varmint hunter, big game hunter doesn't need any of that crap. Forward assist on an AR does nothing except adds weight. The only thing I've see forward assist do is check to see if your chamber is loaded and ease the bolt back to battery silently.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
BTW, back to the AR15, a friend told me today that he has a DPMS upper and lower he will sell me, presumably at a good price. The upper is one of those without the forward assist or the dust cover. Apparantly it's built a little beefier than the std receiver. I don't know what to think of that.

What is the deal/issues with that type of upper receiver?

KB

Issues? NONE unless you are going to Afghanistan and then the forward assist will be of practically no value. You want to know what is better then a forward assist on an AR if you think you need something like that? A bolt handle system that is on the carrier. You have it done two ways. The handle can be on either side of the receiver. If on the left hand side it requires a slot be milled in the upper receiver, which in my opinion weakens it. At any rate you will have a hand on the bolt/carrier group that you can actually do something with. The problem with most forward assist is they are a ratchet type system and if forced the ratchet overrides the teeth in the carrier. Now the dust cover I can see a purpose for even in civilian uses.

Anytime you can get a set of receivers below retail, and possibly dealer prices, go for it as long as they are a known name brand and in goo shape. On the upper receiver the spot you want to pay attention to is the threads and the barrel extension pin slot on the front of the receiver. If the slot has a divet in it from improperly torquing the barrel nut your gas block and front sight will never line up 12 o'clock dead on until that slot is repaired or other steps are taken to keep the barrel from turning and of course I don't have to tell you threads on anything. They must be in goo shape.

I can tell you where to buy receivers for under $100 dollars new, but I never use them because they aren't a name brand. Now if they are made to specs there would be nothing wrong with them.

There are more areas to look at on receivers but the one I mentioned is important.

Do you have an idea of how much a upper receiver weighs empty or naked? Remember now that this receiver must support the barrel and often barres as long as 24, 26, and 28 inches which weigh a lot. They weigh between 2 and 3 ounces. AR 10 uppers of course weigh more because they are larger.

You have a PM.

KB, Check this website out and the price on his receivers.

http://www.lrbarms.com/m15sareceivers.html

Now look at the price you can get it from Wideners:

http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8913

http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000354

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I have an upper like that on my 458 SOCOM. Every once in a while I miss the forward assist but it hasn't been a real issue.

Here's a link to the upper receiver I'm considering, and asking for feed back on. The guy is a local. He says the reciever is new. I didn't ask the price - yet.

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...-ar-15-flattop-matte

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I have an upper like that on my 458 SOCOM. Every once in a while I miss the forward assist but it hasn't been a real issue.

Here's a link to the upper receiver I'm considering, and asking for feed back on. The guy is a local. He says the reciever is new. I didn't ask the price - yet. It's the one shown as in-stock.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx...ITION-UPPER-RECEIVER

KB

Well flattops do present a scope height mounting problem. They say on the standard flattop that the minimum scope height is to measure from the center line of the bolt/carrier bore in the upper receiver (which is the bore center line also) to the center line of the scope..and that distance is 2.5 inches. You won't have a problem with scope height on that receiver. You may have iron sight problems, especially with the front sight, should you elect to go that route. Personally I'd go with a standard flattop and use a scope riser if I had to mount the scope higher.

Ask him why he is selling it. Many times that is a good source of information. He may say "I don't want the scope that high".

He said he will sell it because he has two, and only needs one.

It appears to me that the flattop scope base on this receiver is the same as all the other flat top receivers, except those stated as high. I think the scope mounting has nothing to do with it - (this conversation). Iron sights certainly have nothing of relevancy, for me on the AR.

KB

Joe,
sorry if my tone was rude, -- i was grumpy when i woke up, i guess

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Joe,
sorry if my tone was rude, -- i was grumpy when i woke up, i guess

Jeff, no I'm an aggressive poster. You done nothing in my book. I'll try to reread my post and make them more friendly. We can all learn things about AR's from one another. I'll pass on what I know and others will do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
He said he will sell it because he has two, and only needs one.

It appears to me that the flattop scope base on this receiver is the same as all the other flat top receivers, except those stated as high. I think the scope mounting has nothing to do with it - (this conversation). Iron sights certainly have nothing of relevancy, for me on the AR.

KB

KB, Yup that's a good reason to sell one. You can see by the name what application it is for...competition...in other words target shooting. Look around at those that have posted pictures of their AR's such as our TC1 with the nice skeletonized stock. Do you see many of those competition receivers? No..got to be a reason. Mine is too high and don't like the appearance of it. For others it could be no forward assist and dust cover. I'll tell you why I like a dust cover. Say you're out hunting the time of the year when the vegetation is dry. A good example is small game hunting with a pump shotgun that has the side ejection port. You know how much seeds and other vegetation debris collected in that ejection port. Well that's my reason. By all means not a military one, but yet in the same pretense to keep foreign objects out of the interior.

This is an example of what's confusing to a newbe to the AR. First, some say, and you yourself said, that the forward assist isn't necessary, blah, blah. Then ya'll write words justifying it's existance. If you are confused, then I'm more confused. Which way is it? Forward assist, or no forward assist? That is the question.

KB

i prefer forward assist . and have never HAD to use one, unless i was teaching someone the platform and they rode the charging handle down..

i prefer dust covers too

I feel the forward assist isn't necessary, but can be useful. I use my AR's for hunting, and it is much quieter to ride the chargeing handle forward and push the forward assist to seat the round than it is to let the bolt slam down on a round.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
This is an example of what's confusing to a newbe to the AR. First, some say, and you yourself said, that the forward assist isn't necessary, blah, blah. Then ya'll write words justifying it's existance. If you are confused, then I'm more confused. Which way is it? Forward assist, or no forward assist? That is the question.

KB

If you have a cartridge that won't chamber all the way for what ever reason and it's stuck pretty good, that forward assist just doesn't have enough camming power to seat the round. Like I said the ratchet mechanism will override the carrier grooves. Like I said the only purpose I see for the military is on the small 5.56 bore when you're in water and it fills the bore you have to crack open the bolt to get it to drain, where as larger bores don't seem to do that as much. Now if you're in a covert situation and have to crack the bolt you sure don't want to let it slap forward making a metallic noise. So they ease it forward with the charging handle and then jack it quietly close with the forward assist. Now for a malfunction like I noted in the beginning, in any firearm the best thing to do is cycle another cartridge, ejecting the one that jammed. I don't see a use for it in civilian life. The dust cover I do. I have quite a few friends that shoot various competition and none of them have forward assist on their rifles.

You know I shoot cast. Often a cast bullet has to fit snug in the throat to shoot well. We know the AR's don't have a lot of bolt cammin power. So say my cast load is just short of 1/16 of an inch of seating all the way, one would think the forward assist will chamber it. Nope, it doesn't. I have to resort to other measures to get it seated. These are on the standard name brand AR 15 receivers I have used. On my AR 10 I have billet receivers without the forward assist. I do have the dust cover even though it can be purchased without it too.

OK. Thanks all for the informative answers. Now I can better make an informed decision.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
He said he will sell it because he has two, and only needs one.

It appears to me that the flattop scope base on this receiver is the same as all the other flat top receivers, except those stated as high. I think the scope mounting has nothing to do with it - (this conversation). Iron sights certainly have nothing of relevancy, for me on the AR.

KB

That one is identical to mine as far as I can tell from a photo. As to rail height, they make rings to accomodate virtually any preference so I never really gave that any consideration, but I can see where the affectionado would have a distinct preference.

I had not previously thought of the forward assist being used to intentionally ease the bolt closed quietly. That makes sense for hunting and tactical.

I had always thought of it for pushing a cartridge into the chamber if it didn't go first try, and always figured that is a bad idea. I would rather eject the cartridge while I can easily. Jamming it into the chamber will only increase the odds of a jam that can't be ejected easily.

KB

I'm old and I fart a lot so stealth isn't really a concern...

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I'm old and I fart a lot so stealth isn't really a concern...

tis true!!!
hunting buddy for life, but i know to stand up wind!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I'm old and I fart a lot so stealth isn't really a concern...

Sounds like you may be a candidate for a muzzle break and possibly a flash hider!

Can't smoke in the blind either!

I personally would not buy a complete lower or standard grade factory AR rifle at this point. Lowers are easy to build and can be very cost effective.

AR lowers don't take a lot of stress in a properly built rifle. The most important issues are accuracy of machining, finish, and cost.

Cast lowers have the reputation of being more fragile than billet or forged. I would not use one.

Billet lowers are (or can be) pretty, accurately machined, equally (or nearly so) strong, but tend to be very expensive.

Forged lowers represent the standard approach for military hardware. The are generally considered to be plenty strong and may actually be stronger than billet lowers.

Accuracy of machining and cost are the issues here. Is some choice available as to the logos you might want on them and how the fire control is marked (lettering versus icons).

I would not buy another billet even though I very much like the one I have ... they are just too expensive.

The maker I have been most impressed with is Aero Precision ... their stripped lowers are accurately machined, nicely finished, and cheap ... $85. You can get them cheaper as they make lowers for a number of vendors (Surplus Ammo and Palmetto State Armory) if you don't mind sellers marking. Fits are perfect and The lettering is done on the CNC milling machine. FC markings are available either as lettering or icons.

I like their stripped uppers too ... again very well and accurately made. Inexpensive.

An A-P upper/lower pair is abt $150.

I would prefer to put the big money in good barrel, BCG, and trigger.

what about these from MEGA. They use a better grade of aluminum 7075-T6 & the MTS gas piston system. MUCH cleaner.

Doug,
I am not easily imprssed -- but the mega is made from fortal - which is nearly as strong as steel, but lighter..

http://megamachineshop.com/arm...et-m0903/loader.html

might have to consider them for a build

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Doug,
I am not easily imprssed -- but the mega is made from fortal - which is nearly as strong as steel, but lighter..

http://megamachineshop.com/arm...et-m0903/loader.html

might have to consider them for a build

Kube, I think the good news is there are very very few "bad" AR parts. Almost all are adequate and they get better from there. Mostly it's a matter of either special application like match rifles vs. tactical/entry weapons vs. hunting. You may not find exactly what you want the first go around but you won't get burned either unless you delve into used parts.