Hey guys,

I bought a Armalite stripped lower awhile back thinking that I might like an AR at some time. I really have not alot of Knowledge about them. I would like to build a light, handy, shortish carbine. I can't seeing an AR taking the place of my bolt guns so I'm looking to use it for something else.

My questions is if anyone has any opinions on components for my build. I think a 16-20" barrel that is fairly light with a collapsible stock. A 2 stage trigger and lower parts kit.

If anyone has any ideas, they would be much appreciated.

ddj

on ar builds - use your imagination - there is a whole world of things you can do. for instance think of building a m4, or using something other than 223 go over to ar15 and page through the site

I too like an AR to be short and light.
Colaspable stock, 16" barrel, I prefer skinny not a bull barrel, but I would have it free floated, and a 1 in 9 twist.

Back a few months ago I put together a Stag Arms M4 upper with an EA lower. Flat top with collapsing stock, 1-9 twist, put a Nikon scope on it and worked up loads using the 60 gr. V-max and Varget. Can't believe the accuracy.

Dead centered a small crow with it this weekend, first shot out of a cold barrel at a little over 200 yds.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I too like an AR to be short and light.
Colaspable stock, 16" barrel, I prefer skinny not a bull barrel, but I would have it free floated, and a 1 in 9 twist.

Thanks guys,

This is exactly what I am looking for! The only problem is I have no idea what parts I need for a build like this. I look at ar15 sites and the lingo is like greek.

Thought I would come here first before I make a fool out of myself.

Thanks

ddj

By the time you learn the new language, the parts may be available again!

There's almost NOTHING to be found lately. Wonder why ..

For starters, you'll need a "lower receiver parts kit" which is all the controls, levers, springs, pins and doo-wahs that go into the lower. Simple stuff, really. Warning - a DPMS lower parts kit will be missing at least one part, gar-on-teed. Never seen one that wasn't.

Pick out a buttstock, get the correct buffer and tube (and upper screw!), bolt it together.

Pick out a complete barreled upper from Rock River, et al. Done. Shoot lots of bullets.

We're not talking Olde World craftsmanship here. It's closer to being an Erector Set than a fine Drilling. You can do it!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by redial:
We're not talking Olde World craftsmanship here. It's closer to being an Erector Set than a fine Drilling. You can do it!

Mark

LOL, I always compare it to installing a water heater in your home. It's more plumbing than old world.
Don't limit yourself, plan on a lower with collapsing stock and a match trigger of some sort. Then buy a light weight 16" M-forgery (carbine with a 16" barrel can't be an M-4 like the 14.5" gun the military uses, hence "m-forgery"). Put a tactical light and holosight on that baby and move to part II.

Then (before the credit card bills come in) buy a 20" heavy barreled upper with a 6-24X scope with mildots, free float tube, bipod and laser. Then go hunt Varmint Cong.

Just beware that if you leave any spare AR15 parts laying around they'll morph into another AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
Just beware that if you leave any spare AR15 parts laying around they'll morph into another AR.

That is funny, and good advice! I tend to have that problem with all my projects.

Look, a spare piece of barn tin ... let's build another barn!

Brownells has a really neat catalog of just AR parts. I built one with a 16-inch stainless barrel, to which I had machined on a Shrewd muzzle brake; a JP Enterprises match trigger (very nice compared to the stock trigger); fluted, ventilated, full-length, free-float handguard; hard stock and flat-top upper. Future adds will be one of those one-inch stock extenders from DPMS and that neat three-pound lead slug for the buttstock. Makes it set really nice in the bags. I should post a picture...

Tools you'll need are a set of pinpunches-- small ones like 1/16, 5/32, 1/8, 3/32. I found I needed two or three of each-- they tend to break or bend when tapping in all the rollpins because they are so small. You'll also need a bench block to hold the lower while you work on it and one of those upper receiver filler things to keep from collapsing the upper when you clamp it in a vise to tighten down the barrel. The receiver clamp and lower holder thingy cost anywhere from 15 to 35 bucks each. The pinpunches are about 5 bucks each. Buy them at Home Depot or Lowe's. Don't buy them at gunshows. Those are cheap and soft. They break far too easily. I found a small, brass-headed hammer at a gunshow for just a few bucks for tapping in the pins. I think the head weighs all of two or three ounces. An expensive tool to buy is the barrel wrench. A good one is $25 to $35. Get the one with the big hook on the end. Mine has the numbers USMC SS# 420051 on it. The flat, square ones with the 1/2-inch drive hole are just not up to the task, in my opinion. Put a little grease on the upper threads and run the nut down a few times to seat the barrel. Don't use too much-- just a kiss is good enough. I tighten the handguard with my hands. It then takes a rubber strap wrench to get the damned thing off.

Problem with building just one AR is that you have to buy a bunch of tools that you'll probably never use again. Still, you have them if you want to work on your gun in the future or help a buddy build one-- assuming Jigabooga and his Freedom-hating cohorts in Congress let us.

One of the trickiest parts of building one is tapping in the rollpin for the trigger guard. The metal there is very thin. You can bend it or break it off if you do not support the tab underneath by setting the receiver on its side on a piece of wood just the right thickness, and then very gently tapping in the pin. Even with all the correct tools and implements, it's best to have a second set of hands there (your 17 year-old son or daughter will do nicely) to hold things until you can get the pins tapped in far enough. A way to start pins is to use a pliers with cardboard or leather over the jaws, but I use a very small set of needlenose to hold the pin while I gently tap to get it started. While tapping the one in that holds the bolt release, I cover the side of the lower with a piece of thin cardboard. The bolt release pin is another touchy spot. It's so close to the surface, yet so far from open space that you'll find your pin punch may not be long enough to reach the pin and still allow a swing of your tap hammer. Tread softly here. You'll see what I mean when you get to this step. Sometimes the hole is drilled such that you can only insert the pin from one side; this is what makes it touchy. My last build was like that. The one before was no problemo-- either side worked fine.

There are many little springs to keep your eyes on while you proceed with the build. The one that holds the selector detent in is a bugger. It will get bent if you do not watch it when attaching the buttstock. Also be aware that these little bastards will launch into outer space when you release them from captivity. I do my builds and servicing on a white bath towel-- a big one to catch things that fall or try to get away. They show up really well on a white background. The detent and spring for the forward pivot pin is a pain in the ass obama, too. You have to put in the detent, then the spring and then the pin all in one shot. The detent goes in first. No problem; it will just set there. Then the spring, which you have to hold in while you slide in the pivot pin. You have to hold down the spring while trying to get the pin in at the same time. This can lead to one spring in low orbit if you don't do it right. I hold the spring down with the smallest pinpunch I have from the left side while gingerly sliding the pin in from the right. I can do it pretty much the first time, but the chance for a flying-away spring is always there. Take this step slow and easy. Have your assistant hold his hand a few inches in front of the hole for the spring while you do this step.

Building an AR is not hard, it's just something that you don't do in a hurry. Take your time. Keep your mind in the middle. Don't force anything and don't hammer too hard on anything. If something won't fit or seems to take too heavy a blow with your tap hammer, investigate why. Aluminum is soft and replacement parts seem to be very scarce these days. You should be able to put together a fine rifle in less than two hours if you stay focused, stay cool and don't get in a hurry. The parts kit you buy should have a small pamphlet in it identifying each part and how to assemble it onto the gun. Read it through a time or two, identify each part and where it goes, lay out the parts prior to starting and proceed slowly. You'll love what you've built when you go shoot it...

May I suggest: http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt101.htm

A set of brownells roll pin punchs makes putting the roll pins a lot easier. They hold the pins for you so you don't need 3 hands. The the drive punchs to finsh puting them in place helps also. They all so make a tool for puting in the front detent spring and detent if one is going to do any amount of work on M16/ ARs the proper tools area very big help.

If nobody minds, I am going to put up some pictures of my latest build...


I want to add a few things to my lengthy post above. Put the magazine release in before putting on the bolt release. The mag release rotates (screws into the button on the front) and needs to go right through where the bolt release is to do it. If the bolt release is already there, you have a problem. I prefer to never push a rollpin out once it's been pushed in. When screwing the mag release into the button, make sure the rotating part does not touch the side of the lower receiver; it will leave an ugly scratch. You only need to screw the mag release into the button on the other side such that one thread is showing (Picture Two). Go too far and the mags will be difficult to get in and out. Use a pencil or a punch to push the button into the receiver as you screw in from the other side. Works just fine.

I prefer the tactical bolt release (about $13 from DPMS) over the mil-spec item. They are much easier to operate. I also like the double-paddle charging handle. They are expensive ($60), but you can buy just the paddle for $15 and save the rest. You use the tiniest pinpunch you have (1/16") to put the pin in; I highly recommend some help when you do this.

I really like the drop-down trigger guard; makes gettin' my fat fingers in there really easy and it doesn't cut my middle finger like the stock item does. I think I paid about $15 for it back in November of 2007 when I bought all this stuff. Sadly, I cannot remember who the manufacturer is.

Do not buy one of them pigtail gastubes for 16-inch carbines($90); they don't work worth a damn because the end is just ground off to fit instead of having the formed tip that an original tube will have.

You should also enlist some help when putting on the ejection door. The little spring has to be pre-loaded with sproing so it flips the door all the way down. It can be handful to do it alone. You will have to fool with it a bit to figure out exactly how to position it to get that pre-loaded sproing. After that you slide the pin through the sleeve on the door, pre-load the spring, place the door against the receiver and slide the pin all the way through. Be ready to watch the spring go flyin' across the room; be sure to follow it with your eyes else you'll be usin' very bad language while lookin' for it.

I prefer the teardrop forward-assist but for some reason, I could not tap the pin out of this DPMS upper, which I bought pre-assembled ($600). Rather than force it, I have learned to live with the round one. I have a teardrop, and one of these days I might take the bull by the horns and put it in.

The picture looking down the barrel illustrates the gasblock I filed down to make it fit under the handguard. It was aluminum; I just filed the Picatinny rail off until it fit. I have a full-length handguard on a 16-inch barrel.

The fourth picture is of the Shrewd muzzle brake I had machined on. This brake is available from Brownells in stainless and chrome-moly (in the white), and in many sizes; all are $60. The machining was $200 and I got it done in about two days. Maybe that's why it was so expensive. The surface of the brake is buggered because I was trying to put the gasblock and gastube into the upper, not knowing that the setscrew was very slightly out too far. I put a nasty scratch on the barrel which I tried to smooth away with 1200-grit wet-or-dry carborundum paper. It didn't work so well. This is why I say do not use one of those pigtail gastubes. They do not fit very well, and you have to torque and bend them to make them slide down the barrel. Then you have to tweak the end once it's inside the upper to make it go into the gaskey. They are supposed to "soften" the gascurve-- make it like the 20-inch barrel on a 16-inch, but they don't do shit obama. Mine failed to cycle up the next round. Save your ninety bucks; use the straight one for carbines if that's what you are building. Lastly, get yourself one of those Finger-Eez recoil pads for your finger. They are made by Kick-Eez. Brownells has them. They really take the sting out of shooting just about any gun. Another good way to spend five bucks is to get an Accu-wedge. These fit into the lower right behind the rear pin and tighten up the fit between the upper and lower when the gun is closed together. You may have to shave it down a bit if your halves already fit pretty close. Nobody wants a sloppy, floppy set-up...

The bottom picture shows the various tools you'll need: barrel wrench, barrel vise clamps, upper receiver block to keep from crushing the upper when tightening the barrel, tap hammer, strap wrench, pinpunches, a dental pick set from Harbor Freight, a toothbrush, small needlenose pliers and the tool you clamp into a vise and then set the lower onto it (between tap hammer and upper clamp block). I hope I have helped...

I just spent 3 days at a colt armorers school We torn down and completely reassembled M4 and A2s for 3 days the test to pass was to tear down your rifle to the last pin, ball, detent exept (Taking the barrel off) ect. and put it back to gather in a hour.

Most every body finshed in 30 to 40 min. The dust cover spring not bad at all. With the proper tools are a huge help. We have to recert every 3 years this was my 3rd time.

More then one spring went flying across the room

quote:

More than one spring went flying across the room.

Not surprised. Not surprised at all...

Building one of these things sounds complicated to me.
KB

quote:

Building one of these things sounds complicated to me.

It really isn't. Just take your time, lay out everything before you start, familiarize yourself with the parts and where they go, test-fit the parts if you can (you can't test-fit rollpins), don't get in a hurry, be gentle with your tap hammer, keep your eyes on the point of the pinpunch when tapping in the pins...

It ain't hard; it just takes some common sense and the willingness to do it slowly and carefully. You can assemble one in less than two hours and less than one hour if you've done it before...

I've done the slow and careful business before. It seems like to me, the way you describe it, that it is something to be avoided by someone who has no need for a bunch of tools for a one time deal, and the odds of making a mistake no matter how careful and slow and deliberate I am, a mistake is inevitable. Then I'll have to dink around finding more parts, or fixing the ones I damaged, or send it to a qualified gunsmith to fix, or simply live with it flawed.

That's the way I envision it, and your description of the process only serves to affirm that vision.

Furthermore, the complexity of it all makes me wonder if the factory assembled units are fragile and complex, subject to spending lots of time at the gunsmiths for tweeking and repairs.

Comparitavely speaking, once a Mausers sporter is assembled and shooting, it may not have to see a gunsmith for generations, or several thousand rounds, whichever is first. Can that be said about an AR15?

KB

quote:

Can that be said about an AR15?

About the only thing an AR ever needs is a good cleaning. Most people never clean 'em. I rarely do. I think the most fragile part on an AR is the cotter pin which holds the firing pin into the bolt. It can bend. There is a solid replacement for it, though. The damned thing costs six bucks versus the $0.50 for the cotter pin, but that's the price you pay for reliability. Second most fragile piece is the cam pin, which holds the bolt into the carrier. It has quite a thin section between the hole for the firing pin and its sides.

Putting an AR together really isn't that hard. It just takes patience and the right tools. There are several books out there as to how to do it. My last one was a flat-top. I just chucked the upper in my woodworkers vise, screwed on the barrel and that was that. The top and bottom of the upper are parallel, the jaws of my vise (which I made in machining class at Virginia Tech in 1985) is the perfect width, so all I had to do was clamp it gently and I had all the immobility I needed to tighten down the barrel. The block that goes into the mag well is a really good tool to have-- makes holding the lower much easier. Beyond that, you really do not need all the tools in my pictures, but they can be of help. The best tool to have is a friend and his two hands...

For some good, clean fun, you can build one right here and see it as you go along...

http://www.ar15builder.com/

quote:

Comparitavely speaking, once a Mausers sporter is assembled and shooting, it may not have to see a gunsmith for generations, or several thousand rounds, whichever is first. Can that be said about an AR15?

Once you've built one, you'll know how to repair anything that might go wrong with it yourself.

And things seldom go wrong with the AR-15. What's more likely to happen is you'll lose a small part during cleaning. Like the small extractor spring and bumper.

Look at these free online Brownell videos on AR-15 assembly.

There are 52 clips. And they go through everything from the tools you need, assembly, and trouble shooting.

These are great videos.

Caution- they will recommend some tools (which they sell) that are nice to have, but you can do without.

If anybody here has a problem with their AR15 project, I'd be glad to answer any questions you have in this forum or by PM.

I've built several ARs and have probably run into any likely problem you'll encounter.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Once you've built one, you'll know how to repair anything that might go wrong with it yourself.

That completely makes sense to me, and is reassuring.

Thanks for the other info too. I plan to look at those videos.

KB

Thanks for putting that up, DaMan. That functioning, cut-away AR is a fine teaching piece.

I shot the above gun yesterday at a 300-yard range about an hour from where I live. After sighting the scope, I was able to make a 1-liter Mountain Dew bottle dance the fandango from 300 yards with just about every shot with my scope set at 10X. There was a bit of a crosswind, too, for which I did not have to compensate. I was quite surprised because I only had to hold half a mil-dot high. For me, that's quite an accomplishment because I can't shoot worth a damn and I never practice...

As for how long they will go i got mine in 1979 and just now had to get some parts for it,nothing major.go for it.Good Luck

M4's now come with 1-7 twist... that seems tight for the M855 cart with the 62 grain bullet, but why argue with the Marines.

quote:

And things seldom go wrong with the AR-15. What's more likely to happen is you'll lose a small part during cleaning. Like the small extractor spring and bumper.

I loose the rear take-down pin detent spring every time I change a stock... I have a couple of Spring kits on hand now, for $35 they are cheap insurance and each Wolff kit comes with two each of the smaller springs

quote:

I lose the rear take-down pin detent spring every time I change a stock...

That's one that goes sproing if you ain't lookin' for it. When you take off the stock, pull it back s-l-o-w-l-y from the lower receiver and the detent spring will not go flying away. I have changed the stock several times out in the bush where losing that spring spells "The End" for the day. Just be careful, know the risks and proceed accordingly...

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Comparitavely speaking, once a Mausers sporter is assembled and shooting, it may not have to see a gunsmith for generations, or several thousand rounds, whichever is first. Can that be said about an AR15?

KB

Well, yes because they too are a proven battle rifle. Like the various iterations of the Mauser from '93 to '98, the little things that weren't right with the M-16 got corrected along the way and are incorporated into the AR rifles.

And like the Mauser, there are civilian-only modifications that take the design even further. But the current military configuration is so dependable and reliable that the majority of remaining debates are about the 5.56 round, not the platform that shoots it.

The parts are VERY complicated to make. The reason is that they are made very precisely to assemble with hand tools. A lot of special tools for the whole rifle but a lower can be assembled with crap from the kitchen drawer. Uppers need a lot more specialized tools.

If you go to AR15.com and look at some permanent posts on "build your own", there are additional instructions and photos thatt should compliment the sources already referenced.

If you can't assemble and maintain an AR-15 type rifle, you probably shouldn't own any type of firearm!

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
If you can't assemble and maintain an AR-15 type rifle, you probably shouldn't own any type of firearm!

Agreed, BUT, it's a simple thing to learn and everything you need to know is online or easily accessible. The difference between a 1/4 moa rifle and a truck gun is a matter of attention to detail.

I've always seen building an AR as something akin to working on a lawn mower engine or a motorcycle. Everything just kinda bolts or gets pinned together.

If you're a mechanical guy (which I'm sure you are) it shouldn't be too hard for you if you stare at it long enough.

Good luck!

If you do not think you can build one, or do not want to buy the tools then check the manufactures and just buy a complete upper.

If you get a good barrel, you will be amazed at how well they shoot.

As to reliability, if you clean it after shooting, and I keep mine lubed with Break Free, I never have any problems.

Many times when in schools or in training I have fired over one thousand rounds in a day, five days in a row.

To save wear and tear on my rifle I "squirted" in a little Break Free every 200 rounds or so if possible.

I gave the rifle a good cleaning each night.

Some of the places I was shooting in were sandy, grassy or rainy.