I have an opportunity to buy a Pre-64 M70 in 300 H&H. It's a standard grade in about 90-95%. Asking price is $1650, good buy or not so much?

What should I ask for a Post 64 Mod 70 Super Grade, 95%, with Luepold bases and rings, CRF, good trigger job, from the 80's I believe, in 7mm RM? Nate

In the 90-95% condition that asking price seems fair to you and the seller.The 300 H&H is a great caliber and fairly odd .For the post 64 look at gunbroker and price accordingly as to what they are selling for there.Just my opinion.
Wesley

Thanks.
I did check gunbroker and have purchased a few through the site but prices are all over the place.

Nate,
I own several post 64 Model 70's. I have found that the super grade usually sells for about $650 to $750 used and the standard grade at about $500 to $600. It is a function of condition. The rings and bases are no added value to a buyer. The trigger job is no value to a buyer either.

On your the pre-64, prices vary due to condition and if the pieces are all original. The competition against the pre-64's right now are the new ones built at the FN plant in South Carolina. A .300 H&H is a bit odd so someone may be trying to get an extra $200+/- for the odd caliber. If the gun is not mint or has been altered in any manner, I would not pay that much for one.

Thanks

Can a rifle be ordered from Winchester with irons on it?

I have been collecting Pre-64 Model 70's for over 35 years. Seems values have gone up a bit, especially in the past 5 years. .300 H&H is a great little magnum caliber and fairly rare as calibers go. $1650 seems at or above market price provided its all original and the chamber, barrel, etc. serial nos. match. Need to also consider whether or not its a pre war (II), transition or post transition model 70. If it's a pre-war or transition vintage model, price seems pretty good.

quote:

Originally posted by jman:
I have been collecting Pre-64 Model 70's for over 35 years. Seems values have gone up a bit, especially in the past 5 years. .300 H&H is a great little magnum caliber and fairly rare as calibers go. $1650 seems at or above market price provided its all original and the chamber, barrel, etc. serial nos. match. Need to also consider whether or not its a pre war (II), transition or post transition model 70. If it's a pre-war or transition vintage model, price seems pretty good.

Check your private message.

There are a host of websites dedicated to the prices on Model 70's. I was a part of one many years ago. In summary - condition! condition! condition! drive the prices of these fine guns.

Also, are buying it to shoot or collect? That affects price you can pay as well.

Be very careful on checking for original parts and alterations. Good luck.

.300 HH IS AN AWESOME CALIBRE. SEEMS A LITTLE HIGH THOUGH!

Unless your trying to finance the purchase of the Pre-64 with the Post-64 you are better off keeping the post 64 CRF and using it for a project action.

Post-64 CRFs have burned me before. I bought a "Classic" Post-64 CRF super grade in 300 Winchester and it was horrible. Stock design was nice, but wood fit was shit.

Not to highjack this thread but does anyone know the first year the supergrade was produced? 1937 possibly or not till 1938???
Thanks

Super Grades, like Standards, were first made in 1936 but all the M70s made in 1936 were not offered for sale until January 1937. The earliest Super Grades had a small pointed rearward extension of checkering on the grip--like the M12 Pigeon Grades. These are very, very rare.

I would add that there is definitely a market in "modified" (not to say, fake) pre-64Model 70s and when one gets into a relatively rare version like a 300 H&H caliber, one must be particularly careful.

It's like anything else, if there's a demand, someone will fill it. I've actually been in a place that will remain nameless where stocks were being varnished, barrels were having roll dies applied, hang tags were on hand, etc., etc.

In my region the pre 64 will sell from $1100-1500 depending on use and abuse.

The post 64 was not made in the CRF version until the Classic model came out in the early 90's, except for custom shop models. If I'am wrong feel free to correct me. Price $750-950 depending on condition and wood character.

If you just want a field grade hunting rifle and not interested in collectable grade. Re-barrel you're 7MM into .300H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Anjin:
I would add that there is definitely a market in "modified" (not to say, fake) pre-64Model 70s and when one gets into a relatively rare version like a 300 H&H caliber, one must be particularly careful.

It's like anything else, if there's a demand, someone will fill it. I've actually been in a place that will remain nameless where stocks were being varnished, barrels were having roll dies applied, hang tags were on hand, etc., etc.

A really good example is pre-64 Winchester Model 70 FW 464647. When I bought it in Canada, it was a .358 Winchester FW.

When I moved to the U.S. in 1982, I brought it with me. Later (in 1989) I wanted badly to buy something else, so I took it to a store to sell it.

They accused me of making it as a fake, because "everyone knows that there were no Model 70 FWs made in .358 Winchester in 1959"...the date the serial number indicated.

Of course I knew that was not true. So I left the store (which is still at the corner of Scottsdale Road and Shea Blvd. in Scottsdale, AZ).

I later sold the gun to a kid from Superior, AZ at a gun show in Mesa, AZ, for only $700. (At the time they were already commonly bringing over $1,000.)

Fast forward two months. At another gun show in Mesa, I saw the same kid toting a pre-'64 .243 Winchester FW, in good shape. After some dickering, I bought it from him for $450.

When I got it home and went to enter it in my inventory book, I found the serial number to be...... 464647 !!

The kid from Superior had torn apart the completely original, NRA Excellent condition .358 Winchester FW made in 1959, and swapped the barrel onto an earlier .243 FW he already had.

So he made a fake .358 from a real .243, by using the barrel from mine...and he turned mine into a fake by putting the .243 barrel on it. And then sold it back to me without telling me any of that. Guess he figured I wouldn't recognize the SN?


BTW, if he had done his research, he would have found documentaton that my gun was the real thing.

There were 2,000 .358 Winchester M70 FWs made in pre-'64 guns. 1,800 of them were made for sale in the United States, ca. 1955. In 1959 (the year mine was built), 200 were made for sale only in Canada, through Winchester Canada, Ltd. Mine was part of that SN block.

So, what was accomplished? Two genuine M70 FWs were destroyed. And two fakes were made from them. And I would never even consider doing business again with either the kid from Superior (now in his mid-50s) or the store in Scottsdale.

And I learned stupidity and dishonesty are even more widely spread than I once feared.

Good story, Alberta.

It gets worse than that, though, when the fakers build phony barrels and put them on original actions and use original stocks. In the last couple of years I've seen 358 Standard Rifles with 24 inch barrels offered for sale. Of course, these were never cataloged by Winchester and would have been special orders. I examined them and found the barrels to be fakes--the makers did a great job but missed a couple of key details. About 95% of M70 collectors would never have known these were fakes.

My rule for special orders and rare calibers/styles--"Guilty until proven innocent."

Vicvanb, Please explain the "small details" that you have found to fake a Model 70.

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb:
Good story, Alberta.

It gets worse than that, though, when the fakers build phony barrels and put them on original actions and use original stocks. In the last couple of years I've seen 358 Standard Rifles with 24 inch barrels offered for sale. Of course, these were never cataloged by Winchester and would have been special orders. I examined them and found the barrels to be fakes--the makers did a great job but missed a couple of key details. About 95% of M70 collectors would never have known these were fakes.

My rule for special orders and rare calibers/styles--"Guilty until proven innocent."

Actually it gets much, much worse, as you know. I am friends with a person in Oregon who makes a fair amount of money by manufacturing "original" collector-quality OLD Winchesters...'73s, '76s, '85s, 86's, etc.

He is a very skilled gunsmith, and a master of "aging" a rifle's metal and stocks. He can duplicate a time-aged original finish at least as well as Mr. Turnbull at his best....and everyone knows Turnbull is a truely proficient artist at his work.

This fellow in Oregon also has original Winchester roll stamps, and vast knowledge of the guns he is faking reproducing.

I have never seen him tell folks that any of his guns are not originals, but I have never seen him say they are, either. He simply tells prospective buyers who ask if they are original that it is their task to identify things they buy, before buying, and that if they can't do that they shouldn't buy.

I have seen him sell parts guns for well into 5 figures, and the same guns sell soon thereafter in the big shows of Las Vegas and Reno at $30,000 or more...once in a while VERY substantially more.

Its kind of like the fine art world...how many Rembrandts really are by Rembrandt? Far fewer than have been "authenticated" and now, after being bought for real chunks of money, hang in museums or mansions.

Gun collecting is like almost anything else in the world. There is a good, fine, honest, side to it. And then there is the dirty, lying, cheating, rancid, side....

The trick is to learn what (and who) to look for before buying, and that's usually done by doing LOTS of very time consuming research before buying, and then still getting burnt once in a while. One just has to "man-up" to it and go on.

If the guy is so good that he can make fake barrels then why would he make a 358 with a 24" barrel? Why would he raise suspicion by making them a non-standard length? I think there are a lot of paranoid people out there that go into everything thinking someone is trying to pull one over on them. If someone really knows someone who is doing this they should be puting there name out there for everyone to know. And for the record I do own a 358 with a 24" sightless barrel.

I have been collecting Pre'64 Model 70's for over 30 years. I consider myself knowledgable on the subject. However, I have, and will look forward in learning new things about these fine rifles. I have seen fake carbines, made up Super Grades, rebarreled rifles. I have also seen many specail order rifles that were right. I have seen Standard Rifles in .358 with 24" barrels. Feather wieghts in .22 Hornet. .220 Swift. .257 Roberts that were factory. Standard, and Carbines in .30 W.C.F., 7.65 M/M., 9 M/M, .35 Whelen, and a .405 W.C.F. that too were factory. The above are just afew examples of Model 70's that I have examined. Now, again if someone has information on fake barrels please explain.

quote:

Originally posted by Bo Rich:
I have been collecting Pre'64 Model 70's for over 30 years. I consider myself knowledgable on the subject. However, I have, and will look forward in learning new things about these fine rifles. I have seen fake carbines, made up Super Grades, rebarreled rifles. I have also seen many specail order rifles that were right. I have seen Standard Rifles in .358 with 24" barrels. Feather wieghts in .22 Hornet. .220 Swift. .257 Roberts that were factory. Standard, and Carbines in .30 W.C.F., 7.65 M/M., 9 M/M, .35 Whelen, and a .405 W.C.F. that too were factory. The above are just afew examples of Model 70's that I have examined. Now, again if someone has information on fake barrels please explain.

Sir,

I respectfully suggest that of the M70 rifles you list, several (perhaps the majority) were fakes. For example, one of the large firearm auction houses not long ago offered several rare caliber Featherweights like the ones you listed--Hornet, Swift, etc., that I personally examined and identified as fakes. They sold for high prices and now reside in someone's collection that is likely very, very proud of them.

Another example--you listed a 405 Winchester in M70. Several years ago there was one offered by an East Coast dealer. It was a very early Pre-war (1937) rifle. I examined it at the Las Vegas Gun Show. It was a fake, not only in my opinion, but also in the opinion of several other collectors. If this was the rifle you listed--BINGO.

I repeat--many of these fakes would fool 95% of collectors.

If you doubt what I say--I wish you good luck. Buy all those rare caliber, one-of-a-kind M70s you can. When you come to sell them be prepared to earn about 20 cents on the dollar.

How did you know they were fakes?

Bo Rich and Reelman:

I'm a one-finger typist and don't have time to explain all the details of identifying fake barrels--but I'll give one example. Winchester used roll stamps to mark the barrels (Model 70, New Haven, CT, etc.) They applied the stamps before the final polish. As result there should be no raised metal around the lettering, unlike the proof marks which were applied after polishing and bluing.

I once saw a 7mm Carbine that had the correct roll stamping, polish marks and bluing but with raised metal around the stamping. Most fakers would know enough to not make this mistake.

There are many other details to look for. There is only one way to be proficient--years and years of looking at many, many rifles. If you don't have the expertise, find someone who does.

Finally, don't ever assume that no one would go to great lengths to fake rifles (make barrels, manufacture boxes, use fake tags or box labels, etc.) It has all been done--when $$ are at stake the fakers will be very creative.

vicvamb, Thank you for your reply. Most of the Model 70's that I examined were at the Ohio Gun Collector show when it was held at the IX center. The .30 W.CF. gun was owned by a man that had a nice collection of Model 70's, then he started being big in Lugars. I'm sorry the years have gone by, and I can't recall his name. There was an elderly Gentleman there if I remember correctly his name was Pete Solle that had a 9M/M carbine, a .300 Win Mag Bull gun, Super Grade .264 in the box among the other Model 70's in his collection. He had these guns for anumber of years, and being older was liqudating his collection. The Featherwieght .22 Hornet is on display at Eisenhower's farm in Gettysberg, Pa. a SuperGrade. The .405 was most likely the one that you saw( there arn't many M/70's in .405 W.C.F.). It was from an East Coast dealer. I didn't look at that gun very close it was out of my price range. I believe he wanted around $35,000 for it back then. The gun did indeed have a low S/N. . The Featherwieghts that you mentioned I did see for sale at auction as well. Not the same guns that were at the show 20 years ago. Both Feather weights were sightless, the .220 Swift was a 54 gun, the .257 Roberts a later early 60's gun. Have you ever attended the O.G.C.A. show at the IX center? If so, I would be interested if you have seen any of the above Model 70's

vicvanb -

Just to keep folks awake, I'll toss this thought into this pot we've been stirring.

If one thinks there are a lot of fake Winchesters out there, then they'd surely better not look very closely at Colts. I know TWO folks who enhance their livings by selling "rare Colts".


A few of the guns they've peddled might even be originals that have just been "restored" to age-appropriate improved condition a little. The rest?

Well...as my friend says, If you can't tell if it is truly original in EVERY respect, you shouldn't be buying until you can....or at least you should not be paying much more than you would if you knew the gun to be a complete fake.

I have seen very, very few rare specail order Model 70's over the years. Most of them have been at the Ohio Gun Collector show. This includes the following, .30WCF (1), .35 Whelen (1), 9M/M (2), .404 WCF (1), all Standard grades, except one of the 9M/Ms was a carbine. I have also seen a Standard 24" barrel in .358 Win. Feather wieghts in .22 Hornet, .220 Swift, .257 Roberts with only one example of each. A Bull gun in .300 Win Mag, and a Super Grade in .264. I believe that the above rifles are factory original. The .405 was interesting because it has a medium heavy barrel that was offered in the second style .375 H&H Mag. Would a "Faker" do that? Most likely not, but the factory most likely would. Also, thier are alot of Winchester Collectors that go to the Ohio Gun Collector show, and if a fake was spotted it would spread like wildfire. That is just the way Collectors are. I have seen Model 70's in certain styles that I have questioned. An example would be a carbine with a brazed on front sight. Supergrades with the wrong finnish, sights, floorplates, ect. Calibers from the wrong era. For example a .300 Win Mag with a S/N in the 200000 range. I don't know very much in life, but I do know Model 70's. I also look forward in knowing more. The question that I have if thier are so many "fakes" out there why havn't I seen more of them? I would think that the "Fakers" would be greedy, and I would have seen many more of the above not the small number that is stated.

Alberta Cannuck, You sure do know some seedy characters! You should be outing these people to anyone who will listen if they are faking Winchesters and Colts like you say they are. To let a forgerer continue without doing anything to try to stop them or at least warn people about them is allowing someone to steal form others!

I am not the cops. All gun collectors or would-be collectors need to learn to tell fakes from the real things for themselves.

You probably know as many seedy characters as I do....you just may not yet be aware of it. Anyone who has much truck with gun collectors knows both good ones and bad ones. He can't avoid meeting both if he looks at many guns.

It's his job to protect himself. No one else in the gun world is going to be his protecting mommy or daddy.

I will not be 'outing' anyone on the internet.

If we were at a gun show and you asked me if so-and-so had faked a gun, I wouldn't tell you yes or no there either. But, if you asked me if such-and-such a gun looked original to me, I would answer that question, and if it didn't, I'd tell you what I felt MIGHT be wrong about it.

Sorry, but government-type obligations, like forcing western-style democracy on Af'stan, only trickle-down so far.


Rule 1 for would-be collectors is this: If a gun is claimed to be something very rare or unusual, ask for....no, DEMAND...provenance. If the history of the gun from the time it left the factory is not available for your inspection, start from there onward by believing it to be a fake. Make the selling party PROVE to YOU that it is real.

And if you buy it, make sure the provenance accompanies the gun into your possession so you or your heirs can sell it some day without losing their shorts.

Canuck is exactly right. Do your own research and do not ask him to identify what he thinks "might" be a fake -- or why.

If you think guns are faked, take a look at antique furniture or knives, especially Bowie knives. Some of those offered defy credibility.

One of the most authoritative web sites on knives has an absolute rule of banning anyone who questions the authenticity of a knife being offered on eBay or otherwise. In other words, keep your mouth shut. The reason is to avoid giving the fakers ideas about how to improve their fakes. That makes sense to me.

If you really want to know whether a specific Model 70, say, is authentic, learn how to tell the difference or pay for an expert to evaluate it.

And sometimes, it is possible to get some provenance from other than the seller.

Some guns are advertised as "will letter"...meaning the original manufacturer or a museum which specializes in that make will have the factory records (or access to them), so they can look up exactly what a specific serial numbered gun left the factory as, and where it was shipped to, or whether it was ever returned to the factory for modification or repair by the factory.

Usually a letter from the manufacturer or museum MAY be available for a sum of money, if the records still exist and are still available. The letters are not usually cheap, though.

On some high dollar guns, you MAY be able to make purchase arrangements contingent on the gun "lettering". If it doesn't letter, any deposit paid on the gun is returned and the balance owing the seller is not paid.

I prefer to obtain my own "letters" directly from the manufacturer or museum because "letters" are even more easily faked by a knowledgeable con man than guns are.

I agree that you need to know what you are doing as well as doing your research. But if you know of someone who is purposly faking rifles, pistols, furniture, etc. I feel it is your duty to let others in that collecting field know who he is so that he doesn't take advantage of other people. If I knew a guy was faking barrels I would tell the world so that he couldn't pull one over on people.

Factory letters are great but good luck getting one on a M70 unless you happen to have one of the very, very, very few M70s that are documented by Winchester.

I've already told you my take on it. It hasn't changed. If you can't get convincing proof the gun is real, in terms of written provenance, caveat emptor.

As to letters, I was talking gun collecting generally, not Model 70s. There are many makes of guns you will never get factory letters on, which is why I started out by saying "sometimes"...but there are some other makes or models you CAN get letters on.

Anyway, if you spend your money without being able to identify the authenticity of the specific gun you are buying, that is a personal problem, not mine.

Just how much information do you think I'd be able to garner in the future if everyone knew I was running around "outing" everyone I knew who had (or made) and sold a fake?

Without the knowledge I gain from such information, I wouldn't even be able to help you out at a gun show by saying something on the order of "You might want to really look that gun over again...that pad looks a lot like one of those after-market "Winchester" pads that were available about 15 years ago..."


Anyway, you want to "out" folks, learn enough about the guns to be able to identify fakes, and have at it.

In the meantime, I encourage you to get reliable provenance every time before you buy an expensive gun from ANYONE.

There are many collectors of Model 70's out there, but all in all we are a small group. I bought alot of my Model 70's at the O.G.C.A., and I know that more the one Dealer has been told not to return. The Dealer had some Model 12's that were upgraded, and stated to be original. These were found to be "faked" he was told not to return to the show. I have been asked many, many times what I thought of a rifle one of my collector friends was thinking of purchasing. I don't have a problem helping them out if they ask me. I have found that the other Model 70 Collectors get to know each other over the years, and become friends. If there is a gun of some concerns I usually hear about it before I see it. Knoledge is power! Do I know everything? Of course not, but I look forward to learning more about the finest magazine rifle ever made. The Pre 64 Model 70.

Hardly the finest bolt action magazine rifle ever made. You need to become acquainted with interwar commercial Mausers and today's incredible Mausers from Holland and Holland. They were a decent bolt gun, with a horrible stock design that were never, except in the hand made target models, especially accurate. They did have a fine trigger, almost as good as a two stage Mauser.
As with all Winchesters and Colts, the cult following far outweighs the reality. Have owned a ton of 70s and with the exception of my 300 H&H Bull Gun, my brandy new FN made CRF M 70 is superior in all aspects (except the stupid trigger).
Considing the existance of Cooper and Kimber Super Americas, why anyone would venerate the New Haven club is difficult to understand. But it's a Winchester and just as the 1894 was totally inferior to the 1893 Marlin (ditto W 92 vs M 94), there is no talking to the utterly convinced.
As for fakes, we all know who the biggest faker is with all his model 70 carbines in 9x57, 7.65 Argentine etc as well as countless M 12s and 42s.
Too bad he tried to cheapskate his "maker" as was outed. But he's still out there selling stuff to the unwary. Collecting M 70s reminds me of the guys on the RFD channel who own 100 John Deere tractors.
One of my two model 70s, IMHO the best one they ever made. (as modified by Weatherby, still 300 H&H)

45-70 shooter I too have a M70 converted by Weatherby. However, mine was rechambered to .300 Wby Mag. Now, we can dare to differ. In my humble opion I beleive that the Model 70 is the finest magazine rifle ever made. Now, if somebody doesn't agree with that, so be it. That is what makes the World spin around. Yes, the dealer that I wrote about is still out there. Most of the advanced Collectors know this, and beware of him.

I just picked up a prewar 70 in 300 h and h in gently used original condition except for 2 extra holes in l side of receiver. I paid $650 and it came with period weaver scope. Did I do ok, or do 2 holes devalue it that much?

You did just fine. Your gonna love that gun.

I would say you stole that 300 H&H. Get a decent stock for it, and you'll have a winner.
Bo to say it is "the finest" implies an objective standard that just is not there. It is not the most accurate (my 1952 721AC 300 H&H refitted with a 700 Classic stock will outshoot any sporting pre 64 300 H&H), the M 70s had to be hand assembled and fitted because they did not have interchangable parts "off the machine" and finally value always has the final say. I could buy three pre 64 sporting cataloged M 70s ANIB for the price of one interwar Oberndorf Mauser in say 300 Newton.
I could buy 10 for the price of a new Holland & Holland "magazine rifle".
Next time you head east, stop in at Holland and Holland in NYC (they are very nice folks) and look at some of the new or used Mauser magazine rifles in the rack by Rigby, Purdy or H&H. Like comparing a Corvette with a Bugatti.
Do you get Rifle magazine ? Take a look at the full page ad for the left handed Cooper. There was NEVER a model 70 that came 1/2 way to what that rifle is. A Cooper 56 in 300 H&H costs $3500. To say it is superior to an ANIB Pre 64 Super grade in 300 H&H, that would about the same money, is an understatement.
Here's an "average 56" to put a point on it

45/70 Shooter, I would very much like to go to Holland's store in N.Y. City. Hopefully, Someday that will happen. I have shot 1/4' five shot groups with a Model 70 in .300 H&H Mag. Do I shoot that well all the time? No, but these guns are capable of that kind of accuraccy. I've talked to many others who stated that thier .300 H&H Mag Model 70 is thier best shooting rifle. Back in the early 1980's I was shooting with an Old Timer who most likely forgot more about guns then what I know. To make a long story short, he compared my Standard grade .300 H&H Mag. to the accuraccy that he was achiving from his Target rifle. There is just something about these guns in that caliber. That they just flat out shoot! I enjoy alot of different rifles. There is just something about the Model 70 Pre 64. As I stated earlier in my humble opinion the finest magazine rifle ever made.

Getting back to rare Model 70's I noticed that on the Guns International web site there is a dealer that has just posted some rare calibers in the Model 70. They include a .30 WCF, .300 Savage, .35 Rem, and a 9M/M. This is not the same dealer that was asked to leave the OGCA. If you get some time it is worth a look.