I have converted two bows to the release. I am using the T.R.U. ball release. The first bow is the Browning Maxim with a trapdoor rest and the second is the Browning Mirage with a QAD Ultra rest. I have very carefully set these up with bullet holes in paper and sighted them in. I then tuned for perfect flight with broadheads. Field points and broadheads are hitting the same point of impact and are flying perfectly. Groups are very tight.
The Maxim is set at 74# and the Mirage is 63.5#. The Mirage has a faster cam so it takes less poundage for a given arrow. I am shooting 2317 shafts and 125 gr. heads. My finger setup for these bows was 79.5# with the Mirage and 2317's and the Maxim was 74# with 2315's.
I don't have chronograph readings on the Maxim, but it was fast. Readings for the Mirage are 245.2 fps with fingers.
I checked the velocity for both bows after tuning with the release and was amazed.
Maxim Hunter at 74#
High 215.4 fps.
Low 214.6 fps.
SD .4
ES .8
Average 214.8 fps.
Mirage at 63.5#
High 215.9 fps.
Low 214.4 fps.
SD .7
ES 1.5
Average 215.1 fps.
Velocity difference between the two bows is only three tenths of a foot per second. This shows my tuning method is right on the money.
Now the bad news! Just looking at the Mirage, I have lost 30.1 fps. by going to the release. This is a difference in energy of 18.59 foot pounds. I have gone from 80.68 ft lbs to 62.08 ft lbs. This is like going from a compound to a long bow.
IN BOTH CASES I HAVE HAD TO GO TO A STIFFER SHAFT OR TURN DOWN THE WEIGHT WITH THE RELEASE. TRUE, I GET BETTER ACCURACY WITHOUT MONTHS OF PRACTICE, BUT IS IT WORTH THE COST?
Now knowing the results, I would not hunt game larger then deer with a release. I would go back to finger shooting. I once said I only gained one fps with a release over fingers but this was with a bow set for fingers and flight with the release was very bad. Now I now why.
For you fellows that think you are gaining velocity and killing power, I have news for you. YOU ARE LOSING! Yes, you become instant archers and get fantastic accuracy without years of practice and can shoot light arrows with flat trajectories. However, when it comes down to shooting heavy hunting arrows for maximum killing power and penetration, you can't tune for good broadhead flight. No wonder we have all these mechanical heads and short cut, light heads to circumvent proper tuning. Trouble is, YOU NEED POWER AND ARROW WEIGHT TO GET THEM TO WORK AND PENETRATE PROPERLY.
Now, all the bows are getting shorter so they can't be shot with fingers. Cams are more radical to gain speed. When speed is gained, bow weight has to be reduced for a given arrow weight to fly right because all is relative. You have seen that with my tuning of the two bows above. How do we pick up more velocity? Use a lighter broadhead? Problem is, we don't pick up kinetic energy as this depends on arrow weight. What is gained then? A few inches flatter trajectory. How far do you shoot deer? Ten to thirty yards at the most. Do you need flatter shooting arrows?
What do we need then? We need far stiffer arrows for the weight so bow weight can be increased to gain velocity. What material can we make arrows from? I have no idea.
For you fellows shooting toothpicks at over 300 fps. You are far off the edge of stability and if you screw on a broadhead, there is no hope of getting good flight. Using mechanical heads or short cut, light heads to get around the problem only costs you impact, penetration and game in the freezer.
The laws of physics can't be changed!
Now I have to ask, is getting rid of archers paradox a good idea?

I tried the 2419 shafts today and turned up the bow two turns. Still not enough power for these shafts so I turned up more and as I increased the poundage the verticle tear, nock low indication, started and got worse the higher I turned the bow. My nocking point is already higher then for finger shooting. I got a little left tear before I started to turn up the poundage that should show a weak arrow, but these are much stiffer then the 2317's. I never did get any left-right tears to indicate a weak or stiff shaft once I started to increase poundage. This is a problem that needs to be solved. I do not understand why this indication appears considering I am using drop away rests. You would think that with no support on the arrow that it would show a nock high indication as there is nothing to hold the arrow up at launch.
I might pull off the drop away rest and re-install my flipper and cushion plunger to see what happens with a release. Keep you all posted.

More work today with the drop away. I turned up the Mirage to 74# so that I would get a vane low tear. I then started with zero tiller and worked up to 1/4" figuring more weight on the lower limb would kick up the back of the arrow. Nothing happened at all and every tear was the same length. I then moved up to an arrow length from the paper to see if it was tearing the same up close. I still had the same size vane low tear. Seems as if tiller alone has very little effect when using the release. I then raised the nocking point a little and went to 30 yds. My last three shot group was 1".
The proof is tuning in the broadhead which I will try next. It's a pain because I have to haul out hay bales and take them to my target, then put them away. It looks like rain and I can't get the hay wet.

I got out the hay and tried the broadheads with mixed results. Something is happening between two heads that baffles me. I shot about 50 shots with each broadhead from 20 yds at a 1" piece of paper. First was the Cabella's lazer point, 125 gr. I had a left flip of the back of the arrow and they hit about 6" to the right. the same thing happened with the NAP Thunderhead. This indicates the bow is too strong. I had it on 73.5#.
Then I tried the 125 gr. Snuffer. I had no left flip and the arrows only hit 1 to 2" to the right. Flight was dead straight. This is a head that I would expect to cause more trouble with an out of tune bow. I have always loved this head and it looks like it shoots better then most. Just can't figure why it shot so good being out of tune.
I started to reduce weight to see if I could walk the arrows into the paper and they all started to hit lower and lower which meant I would have to lower the nocking point. Remember that as the weight is increased, the nocking point has to be raised!
My findings show that with a release, any change in weight will effect the nocking point heighth a great deal and the horizontal change very little. With fingers, the nocking point is effected very little and the horizontal greatly.
I put the bow back on 73.5# and found some 2317's that were 3/4" shorter. These were given to me a year ago and they had Bohning or some sort of vanes on them. They were hard as a rock so I had to re-fletch them. I use AAC elite plastifletch which I consider the best ever made. I have arrows with these that are 10 years old and are still as soft as new ones.
I shot field points first and they hit low right. Trying them on paper showed bullet holes so I set the sights. Groups were very tight. I had to shoot different spots to save my arrows.
Getting out the hay, I tried the broadheads. I put the snuffers and the Cabella's dead center in the 1" paper at 20 yds. Problem solved and the bow is tuned to perfection at a higher weight. I gained some velocity and energy.
Hi 224.9 fps
Low 223.1 fps
SD .6
Mad .4
ES 1.8
Average 224.1 fps.
Energy is 66.56 foot pounds.
This is adequate for anything up to elk. Have to stay away from big bones though.
I was watching the Outdoor channel last night and the guy was using a Mathew's bow. He strained his buns and gritted his teeth to draw the bow. The shot was perfect, right behind the shoulder and just below center. What amazed me was the arrow only went halfway in. This is not acceptable with a double lung shot and no bones hit. This is a total lack of arrow weight and energy. My old Wing PS II at 60# with 2219 shafts would zip through so fast I could not tell where it hit until I recovered the deer. I would get 6" of ground on the other side. A high and a low hole to bleed from both sides. Dead deer in 30 to 40 yds. Had this guys deer moved so the arrow hit the shoulder or leg bone, this arrow would have stopped dead and the buck would be lost.
Have we gained anything with the release other then making instant archers and flatter shooting bows for 3D shooting?
I have somewher between 225 and 250 deer kills with bows ranging from Red Wing Hunters to modern compounds. I have done and seen everything from losing some deer to hitting bad spots due to unseen twigs, being out of position or some other problem like the cable slide breaking and vanishing at the shot. Cables hit the arrow so hard the thing flew sideways. I hit the deer in the spine though. I bought an 80# Golden Eagle, shooting 2419 shafts that stopped dead in a bucks shoulder when I nicked a tiny twig. Head only went in to the insert. Same arrows, same hit with an 80# Browning went through the shoulder, spine and cut the ball joint in the opposite leg in half with penetration to the vanes on the opposite side. Solid bone through the entire deer.
Don't get me wrong, I love shooting the release and will hunt with it. I just advise being careful with tuning, arrow and broadhead choices. Better to shoot slower with heavier arrows. With laser range finders there is no need for so much speed. Until arrows go faster then the speed of sound, you also can't overcome a deer jumping the string. Their reflexes seem to be at the speed of light.
Have fun guys and how about some feed back here.

Bfrshooter, Your vertical tear �is� an indication of a weak or stiff spine when using a release aid. Drop-away Rest want change this. It is common to use a center shot rest (supported or unsupported) when using a release aid. Center shot rest and release aids can facilitate or exhibit this type of vertical nock tear for an indication of a weak or stiff spine. Force torsion on the Arrow is vertical in direction when using a release aid. Horizontal for Finger Shooters. Another words, release aid and/or center shot rest may facilitate an indication of a weak or stiff spine with a vertical paper tear when Paper tuning. Try a weaker spine Arrow with a release aid than you would use with Finger Release.



By the way my Whitetail hunting setup is a PSE Durango 68#, Whisker Biscuit, 27� 2314 xx78, and 165 grain Land Sharks at 220 FPS.

Just out of curiosity, What arrow length are you shooting. I ask because I have an older (88-89) Pearson Spoiler that I use 27" 2117's with 125 gr Thunderheads and I get arrow speeds of 247-249 with a 72 pound draw. I use the Winn release as I have some damage to the end if my middle finger that causes extended burning sensation if I draw with fingers. This is my only bow and the last time I shot indoor leagues my average score was in the 270 of 300 range.
I will send a e-mail from my home computer to get your arrow tuning tips as I have never quite been happy with my broadhead tune.

NM, my draw is 30" with fingers so all of my arrows are that length except the five I found that are 29-1/4". You are getting tremendous speed and even though your arrows are short and stiff, I believe getting broadheads to fly will be a problem. Quite frankly, I don't know how some guys shoot lighter spined arrows with strong bows because the verticle tear gets really out of hand and the nocking point has to be raised to extremes. Now a light but stiff arrow would work fine except they have no energy or penetration. Fine for target though.
I do believe you will have to reduce the weight some to tune for broadheads. Your arrows are fine for hunting, just get them tuned. E-mail me and I will send the info. You can always return it to your target settings. To tell the truth though, once tuned for broadheads, the field points will group tighter. You don't need all that speed.
I can shorten my arrows to step up speed at the cost of penetration, trouble is, I have four bows and still shoot fingers with some so I would have to buy more arrows. Retired on a fixed income makes it tough since I splurged for rests and a release.
The fellow that posted before you said to try lighter arrows--well I did with very poor results. Using bare fingers I can shoot 3 sizes lighter and get good flight. Not so with the release. This is a new game for me, having shot fingers since I was 6 yrs old. I am going on 67 this year. That is 61 years of archery. I am from Ohio and most of my life, there were no deer there so my actual deer hunting years are much, much shorter. I shot 3 my first year, 1 in Ohio, 1 in Michigan and 1 in PA. Only allowed one deer a year back then. Now I get 3 to 5 a year with the bow and the rest with revolvers and muzzle loaders.

My question is does the stiff and the weak arrow both show a nock low tear, or will the tear go above the point entry at some point?

Bfrshooter, what cam does the Browning Mirage have. The reason I ask is, Two cam bows with proper wheel timing will have flat nock travel when fired, same with some of the newer One-cam bows like the cam &1/2 (1.5 Cams some call it). Older one cam bows didn�t have a flat nock travel and in this case the nock would snap Down slightly as the bow was fired, which would cause the Paper tears at close range to be nock low. This can also be compounded by how you lock the release to the string and the contact the release makes with the nock of the arrow. Personally I lock the release right under the arrow nock so there is no chance of a dryfire with the arrow nock rotating off the string during drawing or firing. This has it problems like Torsion loading of the Arrow shaft and rest, but it still beats everything else for a hunting setup that I have tried. I have also tried the D-loop with mixed results. To make a long story short, there may be two things going on with the Mirage, weak or stiff spine and/ or low or high nock point or a combination of both. Release Aids can cause all kinds of distortions but they will always beat Fingers for Average Shooters.

One must see the Easton High-Speed video of arrows being shot with release and fingers to appreciate what�s going on with the arrow when fired. The arrow shaft literally looks like a snake in high gear crossing a busy intersection. The way the arrow is weaving and wobbling, one wonders how it would every be accurate.

Here is what Trophy Taker has to say about their fall away rest, and they explain it much better than I could.

Trophy Taker Fall-Away Tuning Tips

Nock Travel and Single Cams

On a single cam bow, the most common tuning problem we have encountered has to do with the length of time that the rest is fully up. If you are getting fletch contact after installation, there is a good chance that simply adjusting the length of time that the rest is fully up will eliminate this. Each bow has its own "Sweet Spot" so there is not a magic length, but usually the best tuning occurs when the rest is fully up for 1 1/2 to 2 inches of the draw.
While it is tempting to think that fletch contact means that the rest is not falling fast enough, the opposite is often true. Single cams can have a tendency to "throw" the nock downward at the shot. If the rest falls too quickly, it does not offset this effect and the nock end of the arrow will then contact the rest. Again, the recipe for success is almost always to adjust the length of time that the rest is up.
It is important to note that this same effect can happen if you hook your release below the nock rather than using a D-Loop style release attachment. Clipping below the nock can actually put downward pressure on the front of your arrow causing the arrow to drop after release if the rest falls too quickly...much like the nock travel issue discussed above.

Spine

A vast majority of tuning problems that are reported to us are as simple as the need to change arrow spine, since interference with the rest is usually not a problem.
Here are the best one cam bow "rules of thumb" for tuning we have come up with:

If you are getting a tail low tear, the one cam bow probably wants a weaker spine which can be achieved by:

1. Using arrows of the same length that have a weaker spine (as outlined on shaft selection charts), or

2. By increasing the length of your current arrow slightly (usually about the length of the tail low tear).


If you are getting a tail high tear, the one cam bow probably wants a stiffer spine which can be achieved by:

1. Using arrows of the same length that have a stiffer spine (as outlined on shaft selection charts), or

2. By decreasing the length of your current arrow slightly (usually about the length of the tail high tear).

For two cam bows, the above rules should be reversed for best results.
Again, these are only general rules; we have found that too many people today have set hard and fast tuning rules that are not necessarily always true.

I understand the limited income deal. I went to college in the late 90's and I'm still paying for it.

That is one of the reasons I still shoot a 15 year old bow. Also I just haven't seen a lot of people shooting that much better with the newer stuff, but I am thinking about rounding up a new bow sometime next spring. Between school and starting a career (very little leave) I haven't been able to do as much bowhunting as I would like as the seasons are longer and I would like to hunt at least a full week with the bow.

Back to tuning, I forgot to send an e-mail from home last night, maybe I'll remember it tonight. If I just switch to broadheads my arrow impact at 20 yds moves right and down (I'm a right handed shooter by the way). The group size increases by about 20% but is still pie plate size out to around 40 yds if I do my part correctly but it seems from my field point groups that I could do better. I am planning to build my own "paper rack" to facilitate tuning at home. I had access to good shops in the past and haven't quite found one locally I like yet.

Added a post rather than edit.
I would like to first state that I believe your observations on switching from fingers to release, however I find it interesting that looking at most arrow charts they reccomend lower spine for release shooters.
The explanation I was given for this is less horizontal force on the shaft due to fingers or tab imparting a sideways force on the shaft at release. Will be interesting to see where this ends up.

NM, your problem is very easy to fix.
I did some more experimenting today. I took out my Browning Midas which is set on 82#. I shoot 30" 2419's and any 125 gr head. I started at 20 yds to get the feel back and soon was keeping most shots in 2". I moved up to 10 yds and tried the Tru flight release which is diffent from the Tru Ball in that I have to push the trigger forward hard to lock it. I didn't lock it right for one shot and it came loose and I punched myself in the mouth. Good thing I didn't have much pressure on the string. I aimed at the lower spot because I anchor lower and hit high with the release. I put 3 arrows touching in the top spot. I consider this good because there is no peep or kisser on this bow. One thing I noticed was that is was much harder to draw the bow with the release. Next I put up the paper and shot a bunch of shots through it.
I use an old PSE CF flipper, the one they made to fit a cutout on the right of the riser on some of their bows. They don't make it anymore. Best flipper ever made and they should bring it back. I made one out of titanium for one of my bows because I couldn't find another. I also have a long stroke cushion plunger.
Now the funny part! I shot the most perfect bullet holes I ever shot. It would take very little to tune this for broadheads, but I am keeping this one for fingers.
So my conclusion is that it depends on the arrow rest more then anything to determine the size arrow to use.
The spring loaded 2 finger rest could probably be adjusted for lighter arrows. The whisker bisquit might change this too. So when guys say they are shooting such and such arrow at such and such weight, they are correct. There is no conflict here, just a difference in equipment. I am still on this learning curve and everytime I shoot, I learn more.
It seems as if my needing stiffer arrows is the drop away rest. I really like it because I can use regular fletched arrows without moving the nocks or spending more money on arrows that take the Uni-Nock. I might have to invest some day and also try the NAP Quick tune or something like it.
I have to apologize to a lot of you for posting some effects that you may not have, but one thing I will never change my mind on is that it takes a heavy arrow going fast for the best killing power and penetration. Anytime an arrow only goes half way into the chest cavity, you might as well be using a 35# recurve.
Some of this learning curve is being added to my tuning method.

NM, I just took a length of wood about 1" wide by 1/2" thick and drilled and tapped the center for an old tripod. I then put a dowel at each end so a half sheet of newspaper can be held with clothspins. Works like a charm, goes up and comes apart in seconds. I have a little building with a door for my target and keep these and a pile of paper inside at the ends so they won't get shot. Guess what? Some of my friends have shot up the tripod legs, (talk about folding up at the shot!) but they still work. I just can't fold them in anymore.