Took my first stab at paper tuning the other day. It was interesting but I wanted to double-check myself.

Equipment is a Hoyt Ultra Sport set for about 52 lbs., NAP Quiktune 1000 rest and Gold Tip 5575 arrows. The initial setup for this bow was according to manufacturer's instructions -- rest centered or a little to the left and the nock set where an arrow at 90 deg. to the string would just lie across the rest. I'm right-handed and shooting a Tru-Ball release.

I had noticed quite a bit of wear on the right prong silencer -- NAP says this means the rest needs to move right so I did that. I also hoped proper tuning would reduce the tendency to string arrows horizontally.

The first few shots on paper at 2 yds. showed a 1.5" tear at about 1:00. First I moved the nock set down and rest prongs up. By the time I got rid of the porpoising, I had the nock set 3/8" below the rest according to my bow square -- so we are talking more than 1/2" below 90 degrees.

Then I worked on the side-to-side fishtailing -- by the time I had that mostly under control, I had the rest almost as far to the right as it will go.

I took the bow outside and tried it at 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30 yds. Arrows were grouping OK when I shot right, and seemed to be hitting the paper a bit straighter than before. (They used to group fine but many arrows were pointing visibly downward into the targets.) Also tried my one broadhead and it seemed to hit about the same as my field points, which was encouraging.

I also noticed that I needed dramatic adjustments to my sights -- as in, I was hitting a foot high at 5 yds. Used to be a couple inches, about the offset between the sights and the arrow rest.

So does anything here sound wrong? I got worried partly because one of the older guys in the club came along to tell me I was wasting my time.

John

Normally, when you have to adjust your nocking point too far down, the arrow is too weak for your bow. You are WAY too low with the nocking point. It should be above level. My suggestion is to get a stiffer arrow.
Turning the weight of the bow way down will show you if this is the problem.
Ditto the problem of wearing the covering on the finger. You are getting archers paradox with a release that should not be there.

I forgot, you should NOT be shooting with the arrow inside of center. (rest way right.)

I bought 80-100 carbon arrows for my 80# bow and could NOT shoot them at 80#. It was closer to 70# to get them to shoot. Another problem was the weight of the arrow was way less then the 6 grs. per pound which would make them unsafe to shoot in my bow. They reside in my back room and I will not use anything but aluminum. I still say your arrows are not spined stiff enough. Go to aluminum or Easton AC's. If you are using the bow for hunting, get a heavy arrow anyway, on the order of a 2219.

something isn't right?
the knock should be 3/16" above square
and the rest should be about centered or just slightly left
the tiller of the lower limb might be a little off?

John, six feet is the proper distance to paper tune. It really sounds like you are trying to justify the arrows you have. If the bow is in perfect shape, string, rollover, tiller, etc, and you can not tune it, you must face the fact that the arrows are wrong. If I were you, I would go somewhere where you could try tuning with different arrows and find what works.
I run into the same situations on the handgun hunting site where everyone wants the fastest, highest pressure loads they can squeeze from a revolver with no thought whatsoever as to how accurate the loads are. You have to step down from the speed wagon and go for accuracy above all else.
I am really and truly interested in you getting good flight. Everyone else that has answered you has also been correct. I have admiration and respect for all that post here so please listen.
If you E-mail me at jameswbrm@aol.com, I will send you my tuning information.

As a pro shop owner, I helped a lot of guys tune their bows with paper and I too used the routine. I won't tell you that it is a bad idea, but her is how I tune: measure everything and get it even at first (just like you described). Get a friend you can really trust. Fletch some arrows with 3 white feathers or vanes and put a highly visible nock on them. Get a 40 yard pin set and back up to 60 yards...adjust the pin so that you hit a foot or so high at 60 yards...back up to 70...repeat and then to 80...have your buddy watch the flight of these arrows (if you try to watch you are not following through and will not make good shots. If your arrows fly well, all is good. AT that point, examine your groups. If you CONSISTENTLY shoot vertical strings adjust the nock position. If you CONSISTENTLY shoot horizontal strings, adjust the rest position and or tension, but only one at a time. The next part you won't want to hear: If you can't shoot consistent groups, you don't know what to move and it is probably shooting form errors.

The same rules apply if your adjustments do not correct the problem...you have the wrong arrow.

Some guys will disagree with me, but here is my reasoning for this method: I have paper tuned bows at twelve feet, sixty feet, three feet, etc. Just because it shoots a bullet hole at twelve feet doesn't mean it will shoot a bullet hole anywhere else. All arrows flex and recuperate. Tuning is an attempt to get the arrows to correct as quickly as possible (it really is a lot more than that, but that definition will suffice here).

I shot with Rod White in Lexington, KY two years ago. I watched him shoot four life savers (not the big ones...the small ones from the roll) at forty yards with four shots!! He was shooting an arrow that he conceded was way to weak for his set-up. His flight was terrible and he conceded that as well, but he said, "They group well so I don't worry about it." His bow was set up for ASA shoots and was getting 278 FPS. He shot the same set-up for IBO tournaments. It is hard to argue with an Olympic Gold Medalist who shoots life savers at 40 yards!!!!

Do you have a bow sling on your bow? If you do you might want to loosen it up from your grip hand. These should be so loose you can't tell they are there. If you are gripping the bow only and you don't have a sling this might be one of your problems.
Do you shoot with a release? Make sure you don't have any pressure on your arrows. You would be able to see the arrow bend down in the middle while it is at full draw. Ron

Sounds like you also need my tuning info! See my E-mail address above and I will send it to you.

John, I am not too familiar with the Cam & � on your Ultra Sport. But just looking at it I would say wheel timing would still have to be adjusted for optimal Arrow Flight even though they claim the wheels are slaved together, for what every that�s worth. Now I can tell you about timing a Two-Cam and I assume in theory it can apply to the Cam & �.

First, what Tiller does is set the Riser at the proper angle for YOUR shooting form, and makes the bow sit well in the grip without rocking backward or forward on the axis of the grip when drawing the bow. Also proper Tiller makes the Bow point well and hold on target well. If when drawing the bow it seems that you have to force the bow up to remain on target then the Tiller on the top limb should be shortened and Tiller on the bottom Limb lengthened, the reverse is true for a bow that climbs the Target. Also if you have consistence high (climbing impacts) or low shots (Dropouts) it a sign of possible improper Tiller adjustment. That is if you�re doing your part!!!!!!!! Tiller should not be used to move the nock up or down or adjust wheel timing. With proper tiller settings for �you�re shooting form�, the Bow should remain in a consistent Aptitude while drawing and firing and the bow should simply move forward when firing without any rocking. Improper Tiller adjustment can cause High or Low nocks and moving nock point doesn�t help much, only gets the bow out of calibration.

Tiller can affect wheel timing and nock point on a Two-cam bow. So after adjusting Tiller, reset Wheel Timing and then nock point. Go back and check Tiller if needed re-adjust, then recheck Wheel Timing and then nock point. Remember, Each of the Three affects the other. By the way Tiller can also be adjusting for one-cams in much the same way except you can skip the wheel timing.

Now for wheel timing the Two-cam. You simply can�t look or measure wheel timing. You have to shoot wheel timing in. Fact is Accuracy and proper Arrow flight may be better with the cams slightly off time, depending on your shooting form.

Here are a few links that should give you some idea about what is called �creep tuning� The first explains some of the Theory behind Tiller adjustment and creep tuning.

Theory behind Tiller and creep tuning

The Second tells you how to do it.

"Creep Tuning"

I don't know how much this will help with your Cam & � Ultra Sport, but hopefully some.

chopper, tiller and rollover are two different things! Tiller is adjusted for one reason--the arrow is not located in the physical center of the bow, it is above it. So to get even thrust, the lower limb is set about 2# heavier so that the thrust equals the shorter top limb (in relation to the arrow rest, not actual limb length.)
Rollover is adjusted to give even rollover of the cams. If rollover is off, the bow will tilt when reaching the wall as one cam stops and the other continues to roll. This will give a different verticle point of impact depending on the length you draw or how much you creep. The article on the site you added makes an easy way to adjust this and works just fine, but if the rollover is set right it is not an issue to begin with.
If tiller is off, one limb will put an off center thrust to the arrow. It can be adjusted out by changing rollover but this is the wrong way to do it and compounds the trouble.
Tiller should be set for even distance from limb to string at the limb sockets--up to 3/16" more at the upper limb depending on your shooting style. Then rollover has to be set for even rollover. Then tiller has to be checked again, back and forth until all is perfect. (I use 1/8" difference in tiller.)
New bows from the factory are set properly and only tiller need be checked. Once someone changes something such as cables, everything has to be reset. Cables have to be perfect and if one is longer then the other and there is no way to adjust it, the bow can't be tuned. Better bows have adjustments but a lot of the cheaper ones don't. Cables on these have to be exact. The only way to get a cheap bow to rollover evenly with out of wack cables is to mess with the tiller. This bow will never shoot properly.
If the tiller is correct and rollover is perfect and the bow will not tune, the arrows are wrong--bottom line.

I again want to recommend bfrshooter's " Broadhead Tuning The Easy Way ", or any other tips he may have for that matter.
To be honest, I get irritated when I have to fiddle around for hours to get my bow to shoot straight, when I could have been hunting.After changing over to carbons, having my bow restrung and wanting to try out different broadheads, I just had to go through all the fiddling, paper tuning, etc.

Well,with bfrshooter's help I spent half a day until I were happy and confident that I can shoot two different broadheads in one spot.
Now I am delighted to say that I took a 53 inch Kudu this week-end. At 30 yards, with a bit of an angle away from me, the 100 grain, Rocky Mountain Iron Head went straight through, exiting just behind the opposite shoulder.
The bull went 60 yards and that was it.
It was an amazing feeling to see that arrow hit the animal where I wanted it to.

FANTASTIC! I am very glad I could help. You have to admit it was the easiest setup you ever did. I have to do it again as I am switching another bow to release but it is a lot easier then with fingers. I have the Trapdoor on one bow and just bought the QAD Ultra rest that traps the arrow so it won't fall off the rest.
I just don't get enough practice for finger shooting anymore. I am now shooting as good at 50 yds with the release as I did at 20 with fingers. No wonder guys become instant experts without years of practice, this is so easy.
I have a long Browning Midas, 82#, that will stay for finger shooting though. I have 3 hunting bows and a bunch of play bows for plinking, squirrels and stump shooting. One is a recurve and one is an osage orange longbow I made (what a sonofagun to draw) plus an old PSE compound I picked up at a garage sale for $25, with a new release hanging on the string to boot.
Again, great job on the Kudu!