A suggestion for Outfitters catering to bowhunters. Due to the more challenging nature of bowhunting it's not too likely that a bowhunter would be able to "fill his bag" on a multi species package.

I'd suggest a tailor made bowhunt would charge less for the daily rate in order to encourage more hunting days. Then have a price list of individual animals that the bowhunter can expect to see. I'd shoot the same species of animal two or three times over if it was all that I had a chance to shoot, and I'd love it! I bet a lot of bowhunters are the same, we just love to kill stuff with our bows. I'm not that "goals oriented" that I need one of each species on the list.

It's a win/win the bowhunter gets to hunt more days, can hunt what ever animal presents itself, and the outfitter gets to make more money on his daily rate rather than on the trophy fees. Additionally it's probable that the bowhunter will kill less game and the rifle hunters can "clean up" at the regualr prices.

When I went to SA it was set up like I've mentioned and I stayed 20 days. I could afford it as the daily rate was lower. The camp staff learned that I was laid back and didn't need to be coddled. In other words I encouraged them to give a slightly lower level of service. I'm fine with that as I'm a tough old bugger and don't need the cook to come in at 4AM to cook a full breakfast. Toast and coffee is fine by me. The outfitter actually made more money in th long run and his game was still there for the rifle hunters and culling.

Good point.
Thanks,
Jeff

There are a lot of PH Companies offering this on non-DG safaris. Most of the hunts in RSA are this model.

Rich

Actually, most bowhunters do fill their bags and most all overshoot so I am a bit puzzled by the post. My clients average bag on a ten day hunt is eight animals and most of them book a ten day, five animal package. The package hunt does provide a much less daily rate and includes a certain number of species in one price. Every bowhunting outfit offers these packaged hunts.

Ken Moody

I've seen several in Namibia too.
Ask whoever you are interested in if they do bow hunts, might be surprised who says yes...especially "in a down economy".

I'm not suggesting this because I'm particularily interested I'm just trying to help the outfitters who may not see it from a bowhunting point of view.

Take the example in the
'hunts offered forum, the one that Spiral Horn is offering. Some great packages but if it were me I'd want a daily rate and simply a price list of the animals that I might encounter rather than a complete package. What if you only get one animal?

I suppose that the clients who hunt from blinds at waterholes exclusively could easily fill their bag. For the rest of us who like to try different things such as stalking, calling animals etc. the one size fits all package wouldn't be as attractive.

Once again it doesn't matter to me, I'm just tryijg to be helpful, in this economy I suppose anything that brings in clients should be looked at.

the chef

Hi There

Most outfitters offering bowhunts on properties in Zim or SA will certainly have lower daily rates on Plains game for bowhunters.

I believe most outfits will offer packages as a means of offering a wide range of species to clients, as this is considered attractive and demonstrates the variety on offer/ available from that particular outfitter. The range and number of species will obviously depend on availability and quota.

It is all about customer choice. If a client of ours contacts us with a requirement such as yours, we would tailor make a safari around his requirements. (ie Lower Daily and a price list of what is available) To us it all depends on the clients wishes.

Lower daily rates for bowhunters is new to me. All the offers i see are one daily rate, bow or rifle hunter.

Hi Guy’s

Tom actually referred me to this post.

While it is fine to say that should you be a bow only guy and want to take a number of the same species the price should be listed as well as a discounted price should you take more of one species.

I am very interested in what clients think and should lower daily rates promote bow hunting I would be more than open to the idea but please bear in mind that you will unfortunately not get the same level of service with regards to dining nor would alcohol be drink as much as you can.

The kind of service that most are used to unfortunately costs us a lot of extra money hence high daily rates.

I would love to do a great deal more walk and stalk bow hunts and it is possible as mentioned if clients can come over for 20 days.

We have 100 impala females that I would love to take off next year as well as other species but I just don’t get a market for it so don’t promote it.

Should there be any bow hunters out there who would like to spend more time in Africa do some walk and stalk hunting as well as cull some animals for me please send me a pm and I will do my best to work something out for you.

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

Louis,
I respectfuly disagree. The cost of day rate does not lie in service, or in the food you give a client. How much does food cost? $30.00 per day? $20.00? Not a good idea in any case to include booze in any way, shape or form. If a hunter wants to drink, he can buy his booze. And service? All my staff give top service to any guest as it is their nature to do so, wheter he comes for free or not. It is what sets us in South Africa apart from all the other countries in Africa.
I had guys PM me on AR to ask me if they can do a tented camp, eat out of tins, ect. I quoted them $350.00 a day per hunter. They were very surprised by this, as it was the same as staying in the lodge. I explained to them that the work and cost stays the same (in fact a little bit more) as staying in the lodge.
The real cost of a Safari lies in the operating of the business. Fuel, maintenance, marketing, staff wages, equipment, etc. You should be covered for that out of day rates.
There is a minimum cost that applies per client, and that is in the region of $250.00 per day. I have advertised for under that a couple of times, simply because I needed to fill the min. qouta requirement on my concession. I hope I will never have to do so again, as we undercut our own industry. TAKE NOTE.
Back to the point. Bow hunting day rates in general are much cheaper than rifle. The reason for it is that the REAL cost of the hunt is less, as most bow hunters travel in groups.
We specialise in Bow hunting. Ryno, who manages this for me, has over 20 years of experience in this field, and known as one of the top Bow PH's in our country. A lot of what is being said here comes from what I learned from him.
Packaged hunts are good, yes, but most hunters like to have a price list, and hunt from that, so that he can pick and choose as animals "come in".

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
It is what sets us in South Africa apart from all the other countries in Africa.
.

Charl
Thats quite a big statement. I can assure you that Zimbabwean,Zambian, Namibian,Tanzanian operators /camps put just as much into looking after their clients as South African operators do. In fact I can honestly say that having hunted at several South African venues, I have certainly encountered as good as ,if not better service in Zimbabwe . I am lucky enough to have travelled and hunted the region widely and whilst I dont have any problems with SA operators, I would certainly never agree that they are set apart from the rest of Africa in terms of service levels.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not in anyway knocking SA service levels. I simply think its unfair to say they are what set South Africa apart

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Not a good idea in any case to include booze in any way, shape or form. If a hunter wants to
drink, he can buy his booze.

And service? All my staff give top service to any guest as it is their nature to do so, wheter he comes for free or not. It is what sets us in South Africa apart from all the other countries in Africa.
I had guys PM me on AR to ask me if they can do a tented camp, eat out of tins, ect. I quoted them $350.00 a day per hunter. They were very surprised by this, as it was the same as staying in the lodge. I explained to them that the work and cost stays the same (in fact a little bit more) as staying in the lodge.
The real cost of a Safari lies in the operating of the business. Fuel, maintenance, marketing, staff wages, equipment, etc. You should be covered for that out of day rates.
There is a minimum cost that applies per client, and that is in the region of $250.00 per day. I have advertised for under that a couple of times, simply because I needed to fill the min. qouta requirement on my concession. I hope I will never have to do so again, as we undercut our own industry. TAKE NOTE..

I don't understand this post. As stated above, i too have hunted other countries besides RSA and experienced the same (some better, some worse) level of service as in RSA.

Alcohol = As a guy looking to book hunts, anytime i see that alcohol is NOT included, i immediately think that the outfitter is one of those who is going to nickel and dime me on everything. I don't drink much. Not on safari to drink. But when i get charged per glass on a hunt that i am already spending several thousand dollars, it pisses me off.

I do believe there is a difference in service levels for your industry....and there should be. I don't imagine you roll out the red carpet for your biltong hunters from RSA do you? Or that they pay the same daily rate that the foreign hunters do?

And finally, you want everyone to "Take Note" that you undercut your own industry? Noted.

Gentleman,

Frosty, I agree, maybe a too big statement, but it is what a lot of travelling hunters say, best PH's in Zim, best service in S.A......MAybe a too wide generalisation...my apology for that.

SilenT. If an outfitter includes his booze for a PG safari then he has not been around enough. If drinking is not an issue for you, then why make it one? I give the prices of the drinks before the client arrive in the contract, and list what is included and what not, down to ADVISE on the tips. IF you think that is nickle and diming....so be it.We just want to make sure our clients no EVERYTHING. I have twice this year not charged a client for beer, after he they drank 1 Beer per day for the duration of the hunt. I used to include booze, I came second, big time.

And I certainly did not want EVERYONE to know that I'm undercutting my industry, I want S.A. outfitters to take note not to do so.....we are cutting our own throats.

quote:

We just want to make sure our clients no EVERYTHING

I could not agree more. Too many places leave out some hidden charges and I feel it hurts them far more in the long run than the outfitter that is upfront and honest with you.

Charl,

You didn't respond to the different levels of service. Anyhow...

The alcohol is just an indicator for me. That's all. I was on a buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe with a very well known outfitter. My PH was forced to inform me on day two that the one liter of Coca Cola along was my ration of coke for the remainder of the hunt (several days left). I thought that was total BS. So, i gave the PH and trackers the one liter (i don't drink cola). I then asked for more the next day. The camp manager produced another grudgingly. The point is that petty things like a bottle of beer or coke or a couple mixed drinks should NOT be extra when someone is paying multi thousands of dollars on a hunt. Being that cheap only serves to make your "service" company look bad.

You mentioned earlier that 20-30 dollars a day in food in a tone that indicated it wasn't a big deal (when discussing operating costs). A few beers around the fire at night aren't either. As a businessman myself, if your margins are that tight that you can't offer that perk then you might need to re-evaluate something.

And just because your clients know that they will be paying per drink, it doesn't mean that it's not nickel and diming.

Charl
As a small business man I get it. Little things add up when they are multiplied by the 10's or 100's. A few beers are no big deal unless its a few beers for a lot of people.
Sounds like you price your safaris for hunting and list out the "other" costs, not a bad idea in my opinion.

Silent T
If things, consumed or not, are included you would be on the losing end if you are not on the heavy consumption side of things. You finding out you've been charged an average per person consumption cost would probably also piss you off. most of us don't care about nickel and diming if we know ahead of time.

Perry

I guess i still don't see it. You guys must not mind:
Paying for your bags when you fly
Paying for those items in your hotel fridge
Paying for extra sauce packets at McDonalds

Little stuff like that just irritates me. I'd rather pay a little bit more and have that stuff included. I just think it really makes a big difference in the perception of your company and the client satisfaction.

quote:

Originally posted by SilentT:
I guess i still don't see it. You guys must not mind:
Paying for your bags when you fly
Paying for those items in your hotel fridge
Paying for extra sauce packets at McDonalds

Little stuff like that just irritates me. I'd rather pay a little bit more and have that stuff included. I just think it really makes a big difference in the perception of your company and the client satisfaction.

I agree, IF you're the guy that flies with bags, uses the mini fridge and wants ketchup. For the guy who doesn't use any of that stuff but is still charged...now you're REALLY pissed.

MOST people will be irritated about nickel and diming but flat out mad about being over charged, for anything. And I go back to the fact that if outfitters eat that cost they stand to lose a lot of money if their client volume is high.

Perry

Let me add that I am a contractor that runs a "boutique" style business. What we do is offer lots of options for the services we provide. A package deal would not work so I kind of see why they do things the way they do. We are very relational and try to make the jobs as pleasant as possible so we cater to individual needs. there has to be some nickel and diming to make everyone happy

Perry

Let me take it back to my original point. When i'm shopping for a safari, i look at the daily rates and what is included in those daily rates. In RSA, almost all of the operators are in the same price bracket with a few at each end. If the outfitters are largely equal in status, etc, then the one that offers the most and doesn't nickel and dime me is getting my business...simple enough.

I'm an attorney and there are some in my profession who charge for copies, faxes, etc. I refuse to do it for the reasons i've stated above. Everyone can run their business how they like, i just won't spend my money on outfitters who constantly have their hand out. I would pay them the same or more at the end of the day if they operate a professional manner. If people want to itemize every expense on their safari, feel free. Not me.

Good day Gentleman.

My apologies for the late reply I was out of office.

I have read all your posts and respect all of your opinions.

Charl, I think you misunderstood my point with regards to “same level of service with regards to dining nor would alcohol be drink as much as you can”.

Basically what I am saying is that one has to cut costs somewhere and should I have to cut my daily rate and work on a food and drink budget of $30-$50 there would be a limit on drinks as well as we would have to cut back on the quality of food served.

In my opinion this is unacceptable when a client is paying $360 per day! However should he be paying a daily rate of $150 per day it should come with the territory. Therefore he will not get a bottle of Crown Royal to have around the fire but rather a bottle of cheaper whiskey.

Come on Charl you can’t be serious $20-$30 per client per day?

I own the land that we hunt on the trucks and all other equipment even a private plane trust me I am well aware of the running costs!

There will be no sacrifice made in the actual level of service by staff or trophies taken but small things do make a difference and unfortunately you do get what you pay for and I would always like to be honest and upfront with clients should there have to be cuts made in expenses.

As long as the client knows what he gets I feel it is fair?

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

Now we are getting closer to each other.

As a man with a law degree myself, I have learned to cover everything in paperwork. I have never charged for a couple of beers around the campfire if the client spends a lot of money with me.

Sorry I did not respond to different service levels. In SA I cannot comment on this. All the guys I know operate to the same level, and charge about the same as well. In other countries I just got the idea that people do not give the same attention to my client and me( I was also a guest) as I did. This came up in a lot of conversations with some of my clients that hunt DG in other countries.

Some PG outfits (the big guys) is selling for 2011 at $650.00 a day, and I think maybe their bakkies looks a bit better than mine, but thats about it....

I think we drink the bar empty on this one, and burn all the wood next to the fire, and still disagree. It was interesting though to see how you guys feel different about this.

SilenT, maybe you should come and share my campfire next year, and we can report to our friends here what solutions we came up with? I will charge for the beer though, but no the coke (since you do'nt drink any). Just pulling your leg Sir!

Louis, of course I am serious. $20-$30.00 per day. If looking after your client's cullinary requirements is costing you more than this per day you should speak to your sjef and people buying the groceries, or get the number of my camp manager.

With so many assests I am wondering if you are making your living only out of Pro hunting or do you have other business interests as well? Do not see this as a provocation, and you realy do not have to comment, but I feel strongly about people commenting about hunting operational cost, but hunting is not their sole source of income. Many of my previous posts on AR ref. this topic refers.

Charl LOL I can assure you that hunting is my only source of income I guess I just manage my income better?

A point about the alcohol supplied is that a couple of beers per night is no big deal. However, a bottle of Jack Daniels or Chivas is.
I ask the clients what they want to drink and buy it for them at the bottle store to be refunded the exact amount. Not expensive to them at all.
Especially relevant with groups.

Karoo that's a great idea, nobody loses out that way. Especially pertinent for those of us who aren't paying mega bucks for the hunt. The alcohol could really add up after awhile for both parties.

I realize this thread is almost a month old already but I just came across it and want to share my views...

Booze...

I'm not sure if this would qualify for "long enough" but I've been "around" this industry now for 13 years.

In all this time I've never experienced supplying alcohol to my clients to be any kind of problem. 99.9% of my clients use alcohol in moderation and the 0.1% that uses a little more have never caused any problems. Last year I had a group who drank a little more than my "average" client but the first thing they did when stock started running low was to offer to pay for more. I'm in the business of hunting - not making money out of selling alcohol (I'm not licensed for that anyway) - and for me to keep track of every drink that my clients drink is a little petty in my view.

When I make preparations for my hunts I ask my clients what they don't eat and what they like to drink. If they say they drink Scotch or Bourbon, I make sure that there is a decent supply of regular brands available in camp. Similar to Karoo - if they are specific and ask for something more expensive than the regular brands, I buy a bottle of the more expensive brand (if it is available) and when the bottle is finished they either change over to the regular brands or I'll buy them another bottle and charge them what it cost me. Quite frankly; bottled water and soft drinks often add up to more than alcohol consumed.

And (no offence intended Charl), but whether client spends $1,000 or $10,000 he is equally important. I think your statement that you never charge those who spend a lot of money with you for a few beers is a little rough. And "one beer per day"? C'mon - we're not running boot camps here - we're professionals! Anyway, my experience is that in many camps the PH's drink more than the clients - something I dislike intensely.

Food...

One thing is for sure - I cannot provide 3 course meals to my clients at $20 - $30p/d...

Responding to the original post by Calgarychef:

From an Outfitter's perspective the only real difference between hosting Bow Hunters and Rifle Hunters is that in most cases day-to-day driving is limited to driving out to a blind with Bow Hunters and spending the day there as opposed to driving around for the whole day looking for animals. It varies but I spend an average of $30p/d per vehicle hunting with rifle hunters so in theory I could offer a discount of - say - $20p/d for Bow Hunters - which depending on circumstances I often do.

Some Bow Hunting Outfits save money for temselves by having one PH look after up to 4 clients. The PH can of course only sit with one client at a time so 3 of the clients are either unguided for the day or they have a tracker sitting with them. These Outfitters save money by only having to pay for one PH as opposed to 2 or more and can in the process pass a portion of this saving on to his clients... But this is actually illegal in terms of the Hunting Laws of our country. Some clients don't mind this... if I were one I certainly would...

Regards,

Chris,

How much does a three course meal and a drink cost in Spur for 1 person?

I'm sorry, will not budge on this. If you try for one moment to imply that you offer a better service due to your food being more expensive to prepare, so be it. It does not COST more than $30.00 per day to feed a client to a high standard, ASK YOUR CHEF.

As for booze, it is probably your own choice. I tried it your way and it does not work. I do it on the Cape hunts where I do not have a lodge and are not licensed to sell booze. Most hunters hunting in the Cape with me, because it is a very serious trophy hunt, do not drink more than a glass of wine or 1 beer a day in any case.

And yes, all clients treated equaly for sure, ask the folks that hunted with me for under $5,000.00 and a year later for $15,000.00.

You can of course differ of opinion, but holier than though attitude? Not nice Chris. My T&C's is the same as probably 95% of the outfitters in this country, and yours not if you include alcohol.

I have had groups of clients drink more than $1,000.00 of booze in 10 days. Wrong? Maybe? IT is their holiday and they can enjoy the way they want. They had a great time and great hangovers....it was their choice. Did I charge them for it? Hell yes. It is a business, and it cost money to maintain a (licensed) bar in a lodge in the middle of nowhere.


To insinuate I run a boot camp, and am not professional???? Chris, not cool brother..... I wonder why you were so quite on AR here for so long, and now suddenly you emerge again, in such vehement force??

Maybe it is short sighted statements against other outfitters (and hunters) like this??

Oh, and I urge you to read the new regulations regarding bow hunting with clients Chris, you might find some interesting new things there.

Charl,

It appears that you interpreted my post as an attack on you or your operation. This was not my intention. I didn't say anywhere that YOU are running a boot camp or are unprofessional. I also do not understand the defensive nature of your reply.

To answer your questions...

I don't care much for Spur food. I am of the opinion that (as a rule) they're overpriced and their food is barely palatable but seeing you asked - a 3 course meal for one would probably set you back around $25. I'm not sure what your point is though. A client does not eat once a day, he does not eat Spur food and he does not eat alone either... There's usually a PH and/or Outfitter and Camp Manager that eats with him/her which are all costs that need to be factored in when you price your hunts...

I'm not implying that I am offering a better service or food. Your service and food may well be every bit as good as mine... This is not the issue though.

As for your question why I was quite (sic) (quiet?) on AR...maybe I've been busy doing what earns me money - like hunting for example Or maybe I just didn't see any threads worthwhile posting on... But as for being back in "vehement force"... Ive never been gone...

Merry Christmas!

Chris,

Glad you are back, we look forward to your wisdoms in the months to come.

Thank you for the apology. It was understood that your statement was loaded as you mentioned my name, and unprofessional and "we do not run bootcamps".....the "we" including me as an outfitter in this issue? All in the same paragraph...

As for food. If the COST of feeding a client's is COSTING you more than $30.00 a day you seriously is doing something wrong. Why do you not admit it?

Spur was used as an example as it is the most popular family restaurant in this country with value for food meals. I am not a fan myself but for other reasons than the food. So you agree a three course meal at a Spur will cost $25.00 approx? And they of course add at least a 100% profit on every plate. So what did it COST them for the food? And Wimpy for a brunch? It is suppose to be cheaper to cater for your guests yourself than in restaurant. IT ussualy is bacause the food are fresh and not produced in mass amounts.

I realy do not know where you and Louis come from regarding this food issue? So if you charge $400.00 per day on a PG Safari....how much goes for food cost per day I'm wondering?

Maybe enlighten us on how much it does cost then?

As far as raw cost of food I can't see it costing more than $10.00-15.00(max) per day. Also as most of the meat should come from your own land that figure should be way less than $10.00. I know that you still have to assign a cost to the meat because it ISN'T free and the books need to be looked after but it's a damned site cheaper than buying it at the butcher. And truthfully it's been paid for through trophy fees once anyway.

With that out of the way, consider that most restaurants run on about 20%-30% cost of goods sold. So that meal in a restaurant that you paid $30.00 for costed about 8 bucks.

If any operators can't feed clients for $12.00 per day I'd be glad to go over and train your cooks By the time I'm done they'll be penny pinching pros and the food will be better than when we started!

I rest my case

I'm going to stick my nose in this one, bc we're talking about food and my family owns and operates 4 very large dining establishments.

I will say, that I am a total food snob, I admit this openly, and I can only blame it on being exposed, to some of best restaurants in the US, bc my family is in the biz.

Now, I have never, and I mean never been impressed by any african food. And I've been fortunate to hunt at some very nice places, and others with me, thought the food was God's gift.

I don't go to africa for the cuisine, thats for sure...and honestly sometimes I wished outiftters would try and make more american style foods for us visitors. Now, I realize that I could be the only one in the world, who might request this. Grill some chicken, pork chops, beef steaks vs antelope this and that. Now that would cost money, bc I know you can easily use the hunted game for food.

But of all the meals I've eaten over there, and I've spent over 75 days in southern africa, not one meal could easily have been over 5$. When you're serving salads, soups, game meats, rice...NO WAY! The only thing that has been good is some of the deserts!

Now as far as booze is concerned, I'm with Silent T on this one, if I see in the whats included, not included line, and booze is in th NOT included part, instant red flag. Especially if you're paying 450, 550, 650 day...which I think is nuts if you're hunting plainsgame. Now the only way I think you could justify paying that much for plainsgame if you're only coming to shoot one specific animal that requires a lot of time. But if you're stacking trophies, that rate is nuts. Especially if it doesn't include alcohol.

Now, as far as managing booze, there is surely a line in the sand of what is normal and excessive. I'm not a huge drinker, and I dont even think i've ever gotten a buzz while in a camp...but I don't want to be wondering every time I crack a taffle what's it's costing me. And Ph's surely do drink a lot, and an outfitter friend of mine is implementing new rules this season, cause when he looked at his bar tap...he figured out where most of it was going. At the same time, I want to drink a beer with my ph, it's part of the experience.

It comes down to what's reasonable...if we sit at a waterhole one day, and dont run that cruiser all day, do I expect a refund on my daily rate? I can guess your answer...nit picky shit is what I have to deal with at home, not on vacation!

Charl,

It seems you misread my post AGAIN. Firstly, I am not "back" so no need to welcome me "back"... Maybe a litle more attention to detail required there or what?

Secondly, my post was NOT an apology to you as none was needed under the circumstances. I aired my views on a topic and your hostile reply (particularly those via PM) prompted me to try and clear things up for everyone's benefit - this was it. None of it has anything to do with a "holier than though" attitude.

I do not agree with your statement to the effect of: "I've never charged a client for a couple of beers per night when he spends a lot of money with me" but of course I am not your client nor should / would I have reason to be...

We can argue until Kingdom comes about what it costs to feed a client... Truth is that we all do our calculations differently and unless we're on the same boat numbers mean nothing. When I figure out what it costs me to feed a client I use the total grocery bill as a reference. The key here is that the total grocery bill does not only cover the client - it covers the cost of feeding a camp. Because without the camp there will be no client and without a client there will be no camp. And in my case, my "camp" includes at least one PH (who might be me), one Chef/Camp Manager and at least one client who sits down for dinner every night, have REAL coffee with their breakfast the following morning and if they feel like it - a beer with brunch...

My guests all have an opportunity to eat some of the game they hunted but as a rule game is not part of the original main course menue planning unless I am specifically asked for this. This means that they do get to eat proper beef steaks (ZAR90/kg plus) or other meat (whether that be chicken, pork or lamb), an entree and dessert which is not cheap and of course whoever eats with my guests - eats the same food...

But of course this is only me... others do things differently and before you jump on your high horse again - this was NOT an insult against you! You are welcome to charge whoever you want whatever you want and spend whatever you want on your food...

I believe the original message that Louis was trying to bring across before you "respectfully disagreed" from him was that there are certain expenses one cannot get away from - irrespective of whether it be a bow hunter of rifle hunter you have in camp and the only aspect of the hunt where one could potentially save money on would be on food and drinks. This was Louis opinion... your "experienced" opinion was.... what? That food makes up very little of the cost of a hunt and that the "real cost lies in the operating of the business"... Well congratulations! You just "respectfully disagreed" to "agree"!

Best to you for the New Year!

Chris- I'm glad to know some outfitters just dont serve game!!! I've often sat at a dinner table and thought, can we please just eat some chicken!

Hi Charl

My apologies for the late replay.

I would like to wish everyone a happy new year may it be a good one for us all!

Charl personally I just feel that it is in any given persons right to price as low or high as he would like if he prices himself out of the market well that is his problem. Please don’t see this as a personal attack on your company I have no intent on badmouthing people.

As for food and drink I spear no cost for my clients end of story their satisfaction is the main concern as I am sure with most operations.

Then yes let’s look at running costs now if you own land you have to look at the following:

1 Employing staff the whole year round.
2 The cost of electricity
3 Breakages
4 The costs associated on keeping all the equipment running trucks,tractor,plane……..
5 Cost of fencing
6 Maintaining roads and airstrip
7 Cost of feed
8 Insurance
9 Improvements
10 Maintenance on structures
11 Professional services (vet)
12 Fuel for trucks……

This is without even factoring in the costs of food and drink.

Here are some costs associated with catering:
1 Chef or cook
2 Fuel to buy the food (not around the corner like when you live in a city)
3 Electricity
5 And obviously the food factoring in that you buy meat chicken, beef and lamb people can’t eat kudu every night?

Charl we have the land the whole year round and have these costs weather we hunt or not I am not saying that outfitter who don’t own land don’t have cost but really. So yes I believe in giving my clients the best possible product for a decent price and there are no surprises at the end of the day and I get to call the shots when hunting with my clients no need to ask someone ells first and that means the world to my clients.

So basically that is why I am asking $360 per hunter per day.

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

I have thought about going to into the outfitting back home in Alaska or Wyoming myself a lot. I like hunting, I have guided white water rafting trips and other back country outdoor vacations for people, and I have been fortunate enough for myself to go on several guided hunts. So I think I have an idea of what has to happen and what most folks want to expect.

But....... I decided that it is not something I could ever do. I am not out in life to cater to people, If I won powerball tommorow and had the money to build the ultimate Texas game ranch or ultimate Wyoming wildlife sanctuary, I don't think I would take clients on it.

Here are reasons I could never guide.

1. I would charge Bowhunters twice as much. As I really don't want to waste my time dealing with more wounded animals and the inabillity to shoot the same distances.

2. That and the fact that a bowhunter is just not going to have the time and the opportunity to shoot the number of animals as a rifle hunter cuts into what I make per person.

3. No booze in camp. I am not dealing with drunk guides or drunk clients. I am not a prude, and I like to have a drink, but I don't think it mixes with hunting.

4. Jackie Bushman or Michael Waddel or anyone else I am not impressed with celebrity, if you want to film on the ranch you pay no exceptions.

5. No hunts for printed stories either.

6. If English is not your first language and you don't want to hire an interpreter then find another place to hunt. Not going to put up with an inability to communicate when people have firearms in their hands.

7. I don't want tips, but we are going to be expensive. I want to pay my cooks, cleaning staff, meat cutters, skinners, and guides a working wage not $7.50 an hour. Then count on your success of weather my guys get tipped or not. I think places like the YO Ranch and the 777 charge $350 a day just to show up, that would work out to pay the folks pretty well, as long as cowboss and corperation are not taking all of it.

8. I am not going to sell stuff by the inch. You come out and pay $8500 for en elk hunt and shoot a 5x5 on day 5 of a 5 day hunt because we couldn't get on a bigger one I am going to give you a bit of a refund. But if you shoot a 450 inch elk 15 minuites into the hunt it's the hunters luck.

9. However having said that, if you not in shape, or can't shoot don't expect anything.

10. Wound and loose an animal hunt is over, but I am going to have the blood hounds to find it if possible.

11. Meat you don't want get's donated toward hunters for the hungry.

The ethics of having a proper hunting place keep me from outfitting. Even if I had the money to build the best exotic game ranch in Texas or buy 100,000 acres of Wyoming and manage it for elk. I wouldn't do it.

Most clients suck, and most outfitters are just barely making it because they have to deal with the former.

Louis,

Thanks for posting and I agree on a lot you have said. We rent a concession in Lydenburg that is costing us a fortune a month, without the maintenance. On top of that I have my own land with all the things you mentioned...apart for the aeroplane and airstrip...

What I can say is that in our (me and Frederik's) experience, and my father that hunted pro for many years, including booze into the day rate caused too many problems.

we do however specify the cost of the drinks in every hunting contract with our clients



Chris, R90/kg for quality beef, you must be joking ? Go and read Louis initial post about the cost of the hunt and where this thing with food cost comes from.I'll not even respond to your post because you clearly miss the point I was trying to make.

Hi Charl

Well then we are on the same page no harm done!

I think each person has his own cost structure and if you choose to spend a lot on food and drinks or $30 per day it is up to how you want to manage your operation?

As long as the terms and conditions point out clearly what is included and what not I can’t see any problems.

Chris understood the point I was trying to make if one has to lower the daily rate then we would basically have to cut back on booze and food, this would mean more game meat and less expensive booze but the quality of the hunt will remain top notch!

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen