Fish,
I am not connected with the factory nor Beretta in any manner.
At one time I was the largest collector of Sako firearms and co-founded the Sako Collectors Assn. along with Jim Lutes from Whitewater, KS.
Along the way you make a friend here and there and you get answers to your questions when asked.
I do not speak for Sako nor Beretta nor will I reveal my source for what I posted but...you can bet it is right.
I have a small, speciality hunting store in Texas...nothing to do with any of the above.
My first post told you everything I know.
Better tomorrows.

Harry, thanks for the reply. I am planning on rebarreling at least one of my Finnlites, and am trying to decdide whether or not to rebarrel my others, I have a bunch, I have in fact been (and think I still am) a really big fan of the SAKO 75 -- it has all the features that I like in a hunting rig, except for a quality synthetic stock, which I have cured with new stocks from McMillan. I am really bothered that SAKO won't reply to my follow up calls, and/or send me a written confirmation that my rifles are safe. At any rate I appreciate the feedback, by the way did you know what the 'ferrite inclusions' are all about, and are they unique to stainless steel?
Thanks again-Don

"Say, but doesn't the bolt look good! Yessiree, Sako builds one tough bolt!"

--Beretta USA talking points memo

If barretas out to lunch,maybe we can take care of each other.Could you please post atleast the first 3 #'s in serial?

Lawndart: I'm not a metallurgist, but I would like to play one on TV.

Look at the apparent difference in the "grain" of the (now split) barrel metal, with the "outer" half appearing to be longitudinally divided from the "inner" half in terms of "texture". While this could be a result and not a cause, and while the photos can't substitute for actual examination and analysis, there appears to be something very suspicious in this.

Also, the flutes appear to start well forward of the chamber. I can't see how, even if the failure was due to the fluting, that such failure could spread backward all the way to the action. It's no surprise, however, after the barrel in the chamber area letting go, that the action ring split, since the action ring is only designed to hold the barrel in place, not contain pressure.

Please post any new info or developments.

I had a Weatherby rifle come into the shop once with the barrel split exactly in half for it's full length. The cause in this case was a barrel obstruction. The case was split just as this one is except only in two places. The receiver was unhurt in any way.
In the case of the Weatherby, the obstruction was near the muzzle so that pressure had dropped off significantly when the rupture started. If the obstruction had been,say, 8inches up the barrel, the greater pressure at work might have damaged the receiver similarily.
For this reason, when I first saw these pictures, I suspected a barrel obstruction at about that point. Regards, Bill.

That is correct. A stainless Tikka T3 blew up, splitting the barrel lengthwise apparently the same way as we've seen in the pictures here. Severed the left hand thumb of the 15 year old shooter.
According to Sako Sweden, 55 stainless Tikka and Sako rifles have been recalled here.

Don't know of any links, but you can read some about it in the latest edition of one of the rags. Not everything is on the internet...

Pettson

Has anyone contacted the NRA? Maybe they can get Sako's attention?



Edit: I forwarded a pointer to this thread to the NRA.



Kory

It's good you know the legal system and the potential problem with expert witnesses. If Sako has to act first maybe they will step up to the plate and save you all some money, especially if they know the problem is going to be caught by any competent lab. Failure analysis from an A2LA or other certified lab can get really expensive, especially if they have to testify. If Sako admits it's their problem I would assume you may get the truth, why would they lie if they are going to make it right anyway, unless the truth showed some careless indifference. I don't know any labs that deal with firearms specifically, my work was mainly in automotive and furniture. IMR labs in Lansing N.Y. comes to mind as a possibility (only a possibility) but is a long way from you. They are large and have most everything in house, except maybe x-ray diffraction (retained austenite test). I have not used their metals FA department but the chemistry analysis seemed top rate. You may get lucky and it's something simple like it's just too soft (over tempered), but labs will still want to test everything. Good luck getting the hardness specifications from Sako! A big part of the problem is test labs are not design labs. They can say what condition the steel is in, but they don't know what it should be. I often tested a reference "good" part right along with the failure and looked for differences. Don't be surprised if they do the same.

Even the fractography can leave them scratching their heads if they do not understand the product. If these barrel fractures all started at the beginning of the rifling, so what? I assume that is the highest stressed part of the system and where a weak material would fail. But I don�t know firearms well enough to state that in a report and they may not either. Having multiple failures, especially if they are all similar (I don't know that yet) should leave Sako with little wiggle room to blame the ammo or operator. As you stated it has to be their fault, or maybe they can try to shift blame to a supplier.

Some words of caution on SEM's. They are pretty common now and a lot of places will take pictures for you. However they will need to cut the sample to get it in the chamber. You will need someone with fractography experience to determine where to cut and where to look (the origins). You will also need one to determine what the images obtained mean. It's likely best not to cut anything or do any destructive testing until it's in the hand of the person / lab that will write the report.

Have you tried Google searches with key words like firearms, failure analysis, liability and the like? Most labs have a web page someplace.

Best of luck

Savage99,

Of the four sets of pictures that I've posted, three of the shooters were using factory ammunition of the appropriate caliber. In the fourth case the shooter was using quality handloads whose pressure was well within SAAMI specifications (ie as tested on SAAMI certified equipment).

Here is a recap of the picture sets:
#1






#2








#3




#4




Berretta/Sako has put out the story that the steel from the supplier was bad - Fe inclusions. There may also be heat treating issues. Some steels are only strong within a fairly narrow range of hardness - too soft and yield strength is inadequate, too hard and it becomes very brittle; again with inadequate yield strength.

JCN

Bare in mind that both Sako & Tikka use the same Serial numbers. Food for thought.
Mark

Does anyone know if there has been a Sako/Tikka rifle outside these quoted serial numbers that has blown up? If not, this would indicate that maybe they have isolated the problem with the steel or whatever.

Just looking at the pictures of the blow-ups in this thread is making my stomach turn. I really wish something would be done to prevent further injuries, this is just upsetting. I wish a speedy recovery for all those injured. Too bad those T3's were selling like hotcakes up here after a sale a few months ago, I don't want to read about more failures in the newspaper... The anti-gun folks are probably laughing at us right now. This is just sad. Shoot safe my friends!

.< !--color-->

Quote:

---

I would assume that the pics on this site of the blow-ups are "public use" pics.

---

And you would be wrong, Bobby� you would do well to familiarize yourself with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. Just because it's on the Internet, doesn't mean it's free for the taking.

I think I would ask for permission from the individuals who took and/or posted the images first.

. < !--color-->

I bought a Tikka T3 stainless 7mm08 this summer. For my 13 year old daughter. I have put close to 200 rds through it. Does anyone know the approx. number of rds fired before failure? My next question is: Whose ass am I going stick it up?
I don't know why I didn't see this post sooner, but why should I have to look for information about catastrophic failure? They claim to be test fired, and not shipped unless they put 3 in an inch at 100 yds. I still haven't gotten quite that good. Most of the ammo has been pretty mild, but if its a fatigue issue, it's just a matter of time.
I build, repair, and inspect jet engines, when a flaw or potential problem is discovered, customers, both commercial and military are notified at once. The FAA mandates it. We would do it anyway, you know, when a aircraft falls out of the sky, and it turns out you didn't warn anyone, it can be bad for buisness. I know Sako/Beretta are not worried about 300 people being killed in an instant, but when lives are at stake, you warn EVERYONE. It's called integrety.
The rifles could have changed hands already, how do you quietly recall defective products if you don't tell anyone?

Wow, I had no idea that this was going on...

I am appalled at the way this is being handled by Sako/Beretta. I just went out to both of their websites and not any mention at all of this 'recall'.

There are people out there holding potential bombs next to their faces, and Sako refuses to publicly acknowledge this and do what is necessary to warn people? Are they totally out of their frickin minds?!?! If they are worried about their reputation, they obviously have given no thought to what will happen to it when someone is killed and the world finds out they already knew of the problem!



I was actually considering buying a Sako, perhaps this coming summer. No more. I will never touch one of their rifles. Not in a million years. Not because of these failures...but because of their reckless disregard for the safety of their customers by not informing them of the potential for a catastrophic blowup. It's criminal. I just hope that a district attorney somewhere doesn't have cause to agree with me sometime in the near future.

I had wondered if ferrite was the problem. The term inclusions is incorrect here.You're talking about delta ferrite which can be found in stainless steels such as 416 and 410.Ferrite is essentially pure iron and the delta [as apposed to alpha ferrite ] ferrite is formed at high temperature due to conditions in the making and hot rolling of the steel. It cannot be removed by heat treating. It can be detected by microscopic examination and other methods. It is significantly weaker than the martensitic matrix [that's why it broke !].That's your metallurgy lesson for today. But that doesn't excuse the poor handling of the problem.

Hi Danny Pay!!



Which US barrel maker is using the 17-4 Steel??



I did ask many of the famous barrel makers why they do not offer barrels made of 17-4 a few months ago, belive me I did get many strange answers, like this one we do not want to use worse material than the one we are using today 416R!!



P.S The BlackStar Accumax II barrels are made by Lothar Walther!!



Best regards

Hall

Send a letter directly < !--color--> to the prez:

Ugo Gussalli Beretta
Fabrica d'Armi Pietro Beretta
25063 Gardone Val Trompia (BS) SPA
Italia

I'm sure UPS or Fed Ex has some type of certified/registered overseas letter delivery service.

I'd sure like to see the primer and case head on that split case, looks like it was a case full of bullseye!..


Mike

Where is Jack Belk..... Wish he would apear again. I sure hed have a great analyses

Yeah,

You usually see some spalling when a gun blows up. These pictures look purely like shearing.
I have no idea what to make of it, but the rifles all seem to be failing somewhere around shot number twenty.

JCN

I have read alot and seen a few pictures but have never seen a rifle split the receiver. That is unforgivable and I think the factory should recall every reciever built on that design. I read an article once where they took an 06 in every commercial made gun made at the time and they plugged and welded the end of each barrel and then loaded full cases of bullseye and then seated the biggest bullet they could find over this compressed load. At that time not one rifle split the action. Most just split the barrels. Some of the rifles took a couple shots to even split the barrels. I would think this would be a basic proof test that every action design must pass 100%.

That said I have had a couple case separations and made some pretty bad errors and have never done more than stuck the bolt. A couple whaps with the rubber mallet and I was back in action. My buddies used to joke around that I should just tie the mallet to my belt so my old Ruger M77 wasn't a single shot. 25 years later that 7 Mag is still going stong with no damage from my youth. I wasn't all my fault. I had a very old Speer manual that was pretty generous on the 7 Mag. A later more recent problem was a defective Shooting Chrony. It was only showing 2500 feet per second on my 25-06 AI with 100 grain bullets. So I just kept on going till it started sticking the bolt and blowing primers. A later test on my new Pact Chrono showed that I was shooting 100 grain Partitions at over 3900 feet per second. No damage to that Ruger either. I don't think I would have got quite so lucky with on of those new Sako's.

Again I believe it should be a madatory proof test of a design to be able to pass a plugged muzzle. I'm surprised it doesn't happen a lot more. I have personally seen over a dozen shotgun barrels bulged and split.

Mete, I again echo what you said. The one thing that seems really unacceptable to me is that Beretta/SAKO haven't posted anything about this on their websites. I think that a huge percentage of folks in the shooting sports look to the internet for info on their gear. It would be a minimum effort on their part, and cost practically nothing. I would take it a step further if I was calling the plays for these guys and have one of my employees seeking out every forum like this that they could find and making posts to help inform folks. I had to spend considerable time after seeing these blowups and trading e-mails with marknlinda to figure out if my guns were on the list. My two dealers said they had been contacted by SAKO back in September to check on the serial numbers for the guns they had in stock, but without telling them why. First, I find it hard to believe that Beretta/SAKO didn't know what serial numbers it sent to who, and secondly, all the dealers should have been told what was going on so they could spread the word through their customer base whether they had sold a gun with a serial number in question to a customer or not. Amazingly some people will buy guns from more than one source! I sure hope nobody is hurt worse than the folks we have heard about...Geez!

What JCN said. It is a shame that some of us are paranoid about our rifles despite not being on the recall list. Worked for the last 5 months to get two SAKO Finnlites dialed in for a hunt in December, but am taking two others just to give all this stuff some time to sort out...I think everyone makes mistakes, but damn, how you handle it when you do is the key. As JCN said once before, how do you justify playing 'secret squirrel' when you have potential disasters on your hand like marknlinda's and someone could lose a hand or an eye or worse! Frickin Shame.

hi fritz
i wanted to see at robsoft ,but nowdays i can't visit there it is always almost impossible to log in from home ,but strangely it is posssible elswhere
anyway i wanted to see if there is something about the incident. i wonder if some thing is wrong about the server or my loging do you have trouble visiting robsoft forum?
danny

Dean Sir, The good but unsuspecting people here are in for
a treat, I read your posts on rec.guns, and your knowledge
and cutting sense of humour was terrific. I used to live
in dread of you flaming me, but now I know I would have
deserved it and learnt from it.
John L.

It's interesting that that barrel split into two pieces rather than three. That helps get away from the fluted barrel causing the problem.

quoted by Mete:

Quote:

---

416 is a high sulphur martensitic stainless steel.These barrels have to be checked for composition, amount ,size and distribution of sulphide inclusions, hardness, amount size and distibution of delta ferrite areas.[ferrite "inclusions" is incorrect term].The basic crystal structures in steel are austenite,martensite and ferrite [both alpha and delta]As this is a martensitic stainless we should have primarily martensite .We also may find delta ferrite.Delta ferrite forms at high temperature and is primarily iron and is weaker than martensite.I'd work all this out but retired and no lab in my house!.....I hope those that send back blown up guns only send 1 piece of the barrel to SAKO, send one to a very reliable independant lab [maybe a university], and keep the other !If you want to see a completely blank look on peoples faces - watch the faces of the jurors when they hear a perfectly presented scientific explaination !!

---

Thank you....obviously you have a little metallurgical background.

I've been studying these photos.....they're basically all the same.....implying the failure is all the same cause.

As I recall 416 stainless is a heat treatable steel. Just how I don't recall but the process of achieving martinsite from austinite in common carbon steels as also chrome moly is to harden and DRAW.

Since the barrels and the actions both fail...(assumably with safe loads(factory loads)) there is a distinct possibility of a screw up in heat treating.......and forgetting to draw..........keep in mind this is merely a monday morning quarterback guessing.....

Has anyone done a simple hardness test on the failed materials??????

OK folks,
I'm sorry to report there is a new member of the Maimed By Beretta/Sako Club . Al is from Kelowna, BC, Canada. While out hunting with his nephew his Stainless Sako blew up and blew his left hand apart. He had to put bones, and pieces of bones back into a rough semblance of a thumb before he could get out of the woods. He says thank God his nephew wasn't shooting the rifle. He had been sheep hunting solo a week earlier, but didn't get an opportunity to shoot. Here is what is left of his rifle:



Hey, at least the blue Loctite held fast on the trigger adjustment screw.



I wish this was the only new incident that I had to report. I have pictures of another rifle that blew up in its owner's hand's further East in Canada, but I'm not yet authorized to post them.

There is also a report of yet another blow up that occurred in South Dakota. It was a .243, which we all know is often a kid's starter rifle........

Please get the word out.

Unfortunately, I'm sure there will be more pictures to come. Please feel free to post these on other sites to help prevent any more tragedies. If you want any of the pictures that I've posted at full size, please PM me.

JCN

Well



I will not buy any products from Sako, Tikka or Beretta after these accidents Beretta's policy of silence is pathetic



Cheers

/ JOHAN

It takes so much time and effort to establish a good reputation and it can be destroyed in such a short time .Sako has a problem and full quick discloser is the only way to handle it but instead they choose to hurtt themselves . One of the lessons they don't teach in MBA schools !!

I am donating the last two inches of barrel from my Sako 75 stainless steel rifle in 300 Win Mag for testing along with steel samples from at least one affected rifle. If anybody knows the fellows in Australia, Sweden or BC, Canada let them know if they send a small piece of steel from their rifles we can get them all tested together.
Some high resolution macro photographs with both direct and side lighting would be helpful. We can exchange those on CD's by air mail. I would then post the greatest hits on this site, as well as the metallurgical reports.
JCN

PS Next to an eye or an entire limb, the one thing you don't want to have to explain in court is the loss of a thumb.

Thanks,



All the pictures I have (two failures) and descriptions (four failures) are identical. Barrel splits in three pieces, receiver blows apart at the midline and the case opens up like a flower.



They have initiated a recall, and all the blown up rifles are in the range that they are recalling.



The company is in a bit of a tight spot.



By initiating the recall they are acknowledging a product defect. That fact is confirmed in a graphic and shocking way by the blown up rifles littering ranges around the world. So far, simple negligence.



But, by not pursuing the recall with any vigor at all (eg not even acknowledging it on their website), they then have crossed the line into reckless behavior. That is where they make themselves liable for punitive civil damages, and also expose themselves to possible criminal liability.



The metallurgy fascinates me, but these cases will be decided by a bare recitation of the timeline. The juries will react with the same revulsion that we all have.



And in the end, when the judge spells out the remedies, the company will be directed to announce the recall on their website and take out ads in the major hook and bullet rags. Duh.



JCN

To All: This is getting ridiculous with people getting injured and Beretta/Sako not making even a base effort to alert the public. Is it reasonable/feasable/legal for all of us to band together to take out some ads, do a massive e-mail blast etc. to get the word out? The latest guy that Lawndart tells us about where his hand gets disintegrated makes me sick to my stomach. We have known about this shit on this forum for several months at least, and we know this guy could have been saved from injury if communication was more broad and he had been forwarned. Sako/Beretta doesn't seem to want to put the word out in mass--maybe we have to!

Any ideas?

I would assume that the pics on this site of the blow-ups are "public use" pics. If I am correct, I was thinking about putting together a few pages on my website dedicated to the blow-ups and trying to, not only get the word out, but compile some information as to the current state of the situation. I'm apalled that Sako/Beretta hasn't done anything constructive and probably won't until confronted with a mountain of evidence.


Anyone got any thouhts on this idea?