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Baikal Double .45-70 conversion
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Picture of Skyline
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Was talking to a fellow gunnut the other day about doubles and he has a Baikal sxs double in .45-70. We discussed the possibility of having it re-chambered to .45-90 to give it a bit more poop. Have any of you done this or know someone who has done this?

I talked to a double expert and he said it should not be a big deal to do, but may require being re-regulated. I know these rifles are mostly considered to be junk by those who can afford the high end stuff, but I think these rifles are fun to play with for those who would like to mess with a double but have limited disposable income.


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Posts: 1489 | Location: Northwestern BC | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With Quote
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From what I know the 45/70 can have plenty of poop as is & the Baikal is strong enough to handle the heaviest loads, it is the lack of weight of that rifle that makes it hard on the shooter & to a lesser extent the rifle !

Cool cheap guns & will kill what ever you want at double rifle ranges or better !

Can be made to look nice with extra work, found this on the Net !

 
Posts: 365 | Location: New Zealand - Australia - South Africa | Registered: 14 October 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of crshelton
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Skyline,
What are the performance characteristics of that 45-70 DR today?
What will it not kill?
I OWN AND SHOOT 45-70 AND 45-90 IN 1886 RIFLES AND IN A BERETTA 45-70 DR AS SEEN BELOW:


I recommend care before modifying the rifle as something as simple as a different load, type bullet (solids) may solve your problem. also you need another .3 inch for the 45-90 chambers and you must be sure that is available. IIRC, the Baikal recommends pressures less than 28,000 psi. the proper 45-70 bullet at that pressure generates a lot of power.

Best of luck.


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Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of cal pappas
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The .45-70 is rifled for 400-500 grain bullets whilst the .45-90 is made for 300 grainers. Regulation probably will be necessary and check the rifling twist.

And, the rifle above wth the new stock looks vrey nice.
Cal


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Posts: 6590 | Location: Willow, Alaska | Registered: 29 June 2009Reply With Quote
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My Baikal isn’t that pretty.
I load 405 cast to Trapdoor loads and haven’t recovered a bullet on hogs.
 
Posts: 1038 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 09 January 2005Reply With Quote
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The rifling twist on the Baikal will certainly stabilize 300 grain bullets.
Now, when guys say 45-90 these days they do not mean the original 45-90; which was a Winchester express cartridge with a 36 inch twist, only for 300 grain bullets. Now they mean, any 2.4 inch 45, with 18-22 twist, like the 2.4 Sharps. Not Winchester.
Anyway, you gain little by lengthening the chamber of your Baikal. They are too light to make use of it, and you can't increase pressure. As for regulation, remember that Baikals can be regulated by the user.
So, if you really wanted to, I suppose it wouldn't hurt. Well, maybe your shoulder.
I have had two 45-70s and at least two 30-06s; one left.
Yes, the upper crust DR guys here think the Baikals are junk, but in reality they are super strong, and reliable, although crudely made and finished. And very accurate; once you learn how to adjust the barrels. The muzzles are held with a collar which can be adjusted if necessary but you have to know how, for vertical adjustment. Horizontal is easier.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Skyline
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Gentlemen, thank you for all the information. I will pass it along.

After handling the Baikal .45-70 I can see why comments are made about them being a little rough, and the stock certainly needs to be improved. That said I think one of them may be a lot of fun to play with and take bear hunting.

Sarg that Baikal that received the TLC looks great. Might be a good winter project... Smiler


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Posts: 1489 | Location: Northwestern BC | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Yes bud I think a cool rifle for the money & I think more could be done on the re contouring, the sides of the action the balls, all sorts if you are competent, here is one with restuck/contoured barrels, proper sights & ribs fitted.



I have 6 single shot Baikals, cheap & well made, shoot very well, just a few things to make them very cool !

I'll add one that some one did some work on, not mine, unfortunately !




Nice work on your rifle dpcd, you would know how much the action could be contoured, is the action hardened ?



.
 
Posts: 365 | Location: New Zealand - Australia - South Africa | Registered: 14 October 2007Reply With Quote
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The frames are not hard at all; easily milled, drilled, etc.
They are forged from surplus T72 tank armor; very tough.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Very nice!


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Posts: 1489 | Location: Northwestern BC | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With Quote
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The 45-90 is nothing but a 45-70 lengthened to accommodate more powder, the Baikal double is an extremely weak poorly made rifle that will not handle anything over 28000 CIP (clearly stamped on the barrels). You can easily hand load the old 45-70 to 45000 plus CIP and launch a 411 grain bullet at 2000 FPS in a well built rifle if you can manage the regulation problem.
Lengthening the chamber in that rifle will only create an other problem, since you wouldn’t be able to fill the cartridge with powder (unless you have a suicide wish) you would have to use a filler to load the 45-90 safely. There are much better “affordable doubles” out there including the Sabatti and several other European imports.
“Shoot safely hunt longer”
Tony
 
Posts: 6 | Registered: 14 November 2020Reply With Quote
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I have to disagree with almost everything you wrote; sorry.
1. The 45-90 Winchester is not a long 45-70; read above.
2. Baikals are not weak actions. They are made in 30-06; look up the pressures for those.
3. Poorly made? Rough finished, yes. But tight and strong.
4. Regulation issues? These rifles are made so the user can regulate them himself.
5. There are no other DRs in this price range.
True, lengthening the chamber is not necessary; a hot loaded 45-70 has more than enough power as you say, but it is not "suicide" either.
I have three of these; have you actually worked with one?
I see this is your first post; Welcome to AR.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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45/70 Baikal is a face bashing piece of junk.
 
Posts: 111 | Registered: 21 July 2020Reply With Quote
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Not this one; I will buy all that you have. And this one shoots into one inch at 50 yards. Better than any other DR that I have or have fired.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
I have to disagree with almost everything you wrote; sorry.
1. The 45-90 Winchester is not a long 45-70; read above.
2. Baikals are not weak actions. They are made in 30-06; look up the pressures for those.
3. Poorly made? Rough finished, yes. But tight and strong.
4. Regulation issues? These rifles are made so the user can regulate them himself.
5. There are no other DRs in this price range.
True, lengthening the chamber is not necessary; a hot loaded 45-70 has more than enough power as you say, but it is not "suicide" either.
I have three of these; have you actually worked with one?
I see this is your first post; Welcome to AR.
 
Posts: 6 | Registered: 14 November 2020Reply With Quote
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Well thanks for the welcoming but, the 45-90 is not a lengthened 45-70? After 38 years of gunsmithing including building double rifles from scratch (C&C gun works and Island Crest stock making) I must have missed something..
by the way I respect everybody’s position as long as I’m not the one pulling the trigger.
Cheers
 
Posts: 6 | Registered: 14 November 2020Reply With Quote
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Yes, you missed something; the 45-70 was a military round, first using a 405 and later a 500 grain bullet; it was changed so they could kill a horse at long range. Twist was one in 22 with a 2.1 inch case.
The 45-90 Winchester was an Express round, firing a 300 grain bullet with a 36 inch twist. 2.4 inch case.
So, the 45-90 was, and is, definitely not just a long 45-70; completely different design parameter.
What you are thinking of is, or was, the 45 2.4 or 2 4/10 Sharps cartridges. Firing heavy bullets and having a fast twist.
Issue is that nowadays, no one knows the history so anything with a 2.4 inch case is just a long 45-70.
And the Baikal is a very strong action; I assume you have never worked with one. I have built several DRs on Russian frames. Yes they are basic in finish, but that does not mean they are weak.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Funny how cutting and pasting a Google search makes people “experts”. from my matter of fact point of view (that’s where you missed my point) The 45-90 is a “longer 45-70. Now if you want split the hair and factor in the history and data of the two rounds that’s a whole different conversation. I stick to my hands on approach and you stick to your Google search and have a nice life.
Cheers
 
Posts: 6 | Registered: 14 November 2020Reply With Quote
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Seriously? Google? I wrote all that from hands on experience with the rifles and memory. I didn't start this yesterday. More like 60 years ago.
Clearly, a different cartridge, and application. Not splitting hairs at all.
If your matter of fact point of view is just that one is 2.4 and one is 2.1, fine. But there is a lot more to it when you use the original designations. Which everyone is. Putting a 500 grain bullet into a 2. 4 inch case makes it no longer a 45-90. That is a fact.
I can't educate everyone. I wish you well here on AR.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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back to the topic
i've had a couple of these- wish i had kept at least one

pressure - the 45/70 says 28k cup - but have been sold in 30-06. which is nearly double the pressure

{let's forego any lectures on bolt thrust .. i've built a couple doubles, I get it}

it's a VERY light rifle ... this isn't a Kodiak that can be rechambered into whatever you like .. the barrels are VERY thin at the block, and I AM very concerned about just reaming to 45/120 nitro ... yes, 120, as I have had no interest in the /90. why Nitro? because I load 45/120 with nitro for near matches to 450/n02

regulation .. what there is of it, you can self adjust a bit .. it works if you have decent ammo...

BUT>>>>>>>

the trigger is what kills these things. terrible doesn't begin to describe it .. and this CAN be made decent.

I like them for what they are -- just like a mustang isn't a gt40, these aren't going to be high dollar guns.

they weigh next to nothing, they are easy to scope, the triggers can be improved, and will handle decent NA loads.


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

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Posts: 35182 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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And you put a merc brake in the butt.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Had one briefly when a bunch of us here were all in a lather over the rumor that Remington would import them -- and then they did, briefly, taking the product away from EAA! Remember those days, Jeffe? Cool
The one I had was quite functional -- as good in that respect as my 12-gauge Baikal side-by-side -- but it kicked me hard with anything much beyond Trapdoor loads. Still, having a double of any kind simply cannot be sneezed at!


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Posts: 13785 | Location: Alamogordo, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:...

BUT>>>>>>>

the trigger is what kills these things. terrible doesn't begin to describe it .. and this CAN be made decent.

I like them for what they are -- just like a mustang isn't a gt40, these aren't going to be high dollar guns.

they weigh next to nothing, they are easy to scope, the triggers can be improved, and will handle decent NA loads.


The trigger is so creepy you don’t realize how heavy it is.

M
 
Posts: 1038 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 09 January 2005Reply With Quote
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But are easily lightened; they are very simple inside.
These are not the next price point rifles; several $K. . But are certainly not weak and definitely not inaccurate; out shooting all others.
 
Posts: 13309 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Skyline, I like it. The rifle is very under rated. Practice and good looking with the wood upgrade. Same with the H&R, NEF single shot.

As you know I had two big bore barrels made for the H&R Handi Rifle frame, 500-110 Winchester and 577 NE. (In BC, Vern at the Silhouette Shop on Vancouver Island does the work using the barrel stub process.) The action polishes up very well and the trigger will respond well to stoning. All good steel just a PITA to assemble/disassemble. I made nice stocks for them and they look real "downtown".
I made the butt stocks quite straight like the one pictured in your post, and weighted the forend to mitigate the recoil. One just has to keep the pressures moderate. (Ed Hubbel got me into VV N550,N540 and N530 powder.)
It really tickles me to turn a $300 rifle into a decent looking, working big bore for dangerous game. I did the same with the 500-110 on a TC Encore. Short handy rifle but ugly as a carbuncle.
PS. I have several nice/expensive bolt action big bores in the rack that I have not taken out in a few years, since I got into these funky break open single shots.
 
Posts: 2573 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Skyline, I like it. The rifle is very under rated. Practice and good looking with the wood upgrade. Same with the H&R, NEF single shot.

As you know I had two big bore barrels made for the H&R Handi Rifle frame, 500-110 Winchester and 577 NE. (In BC, Vern at the Silhouette Shop on Vancouver Island does the work using the barrel stub process.) The action polishes up very well and the trigger will respond well to stoning. All good steel just a PITA to assemble/disassemble. I made nice stocks for them and they look real "downtown".
I made the butt stocks quite straight like the one pictured in your post, and weighted the forend to mitigate the recoil. One just has to keep the pressures moderate. (Ed Hubbel got me into VV N550,N540 and N530 powder.)
It really tickles me to turn a $300 rifle into a decent looking, working big bore for dangerous game. I did the same with the 500-110 on a TC Encore. Short handy rifle but ugly as a carbuncle.
PS. I have several nice/expensive bolt action big bores in the rack that I have not taken out in a few years, since I got into these funky break open single shots.


Holy Cow you put a .577NE on the H&R, do you use BPE-LN loads in it, would love to see pics of these, can you start a thread in the Big Bore section maybe, bloody awesome, I made a .500NE 3 1/4in on a NEF, cost a quid to get made up & the recoil was like being in a Car crash as it was way light, less than a 45/70 H&R ?
 
Posts: 365 | Location: New Zealand - Australia - South Africa | Registered: 14 October 2007Reply With Quote
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Your 500NE would be perfect. My 577NE weighs about 13 lbs with a 26.5 heavy barrel. and lead/epoxy in the forend. My stock is very straight. 700 grain bullet Peregrine bullet at about 1800fps. I am a skinny old guy and I have learned to not fight the recoil. I like to shoot it. It sure works on cape buffalo.
my 500-110 is a 50-110 winchester with a custom chamber necked down a bit to true .500 cal. 450 grain CEB bullet out of a 22 inch barrel at 2,000 fps.

I have not learned to post photos on AR. If you PM me your email I can send you some photos, or you can post them on the big bore section.
 
Posts: 2573 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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Sarg, I posted a link to a video in the Big Bore section, of a cape buffalo cow kill with the 577NE H&R. Please excuse the hoakey video. Brian
 
Posts: 2573 | Location: Kamloops, BC | Registered: 09 November 2015Reply With Quote
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Big Grin Got it thanks for that, does the trick nicely lol

But you are crazy using the H&R haha !

Every one told me I was crazy only doing the .500NE & I would die be blown to bits ....& so on lol

Now recoiled to bits yes !
 
Posts: 365 | Location: New Zealand - Australia - South Africa | Registered: 14 October 2007Reply With Quote
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This just makes me want to pull mine out of the safe and take it to the range. I didn't have any problem regulating it for the 350 Hornady/ H322 load I was using, and has easy deer and pig accuracy beyond 100 yards.
The triggers needed to be re-worked and the nice Pachmayer pad installed, but all in all it's a very functional rifle with just a bit of effort.
Being made from a piece of T-72 armor is all the better.


John in Oregon
 
Posts: 599 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 23 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Forgive me for not posting a full picture of my Beretta .45-70 with 26 inch barrels:


Configured as seen, it weighs 9.5 pounds and medium loads are easy on the shooter due to the shape and weight of gun. It is a pleasure to shoot and each barrel can put bullet after bullet into the same hole. Even 300 grain bullets at 1500 fps are more than enough for substantial feral boars like this 300 pounder which was the first game taken by me with the new-to-me rifle. He had been fighting our chase dogs and cut up a couple of them. That could be when he lost his left forward tusk


I am presently closing in on a load with 405 grain bullets with better regulation than the present two inch 50 yard groups.


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Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Is it possible to rechamber one of these to 458 win mag?
 
Posts: 236 | Registered: 31 March 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by AXEL19:
Is it possible to rechamber one of these to 458 win mag?


I’m no expert, but I don’t think it would be wise. There would be issues with rimmed/rimless for extractors. At the same time, I think the .458 definitely creates more pressure.


I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills.

Marcus Cady

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Posts: 2884 | Location: Dallas | Registered: 19 March 2008Reply With Quote
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It might be possible to rechamber a 45-70 to 45-90 and that would depend on each 45-70.


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Posts: 1873 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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It has a very small = light action & that is your biggest problem, barrels also tapper quickly, if you rechambered to 45/90 & loaded to 458Win velocity the recoil would hammer you & the rifle, the rifle could most likely take the pressure but not wise, you can load the 45/70 in these rifles to where it is very uncomfortable & it will kill what ever you should be using such a double on .

I can't see a Baikal Double owner chasing Elephants some how no matter what it is chambered in ?
 
Posts: 365 | Location: New Zealand - Australia - South Africa | Registered: 14 October 2007Reply With Quote
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