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Stolen Double Rifle Case Value
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Picture of Frostbit
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The Army Navy double rifle case that held my Army Navy 450 3 1/4 NE with 28 inch barrels has been "misplaced" by a less than honest consignment antique dealer in Anchorage.

What would true replacement value be if I could even find one?





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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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They're out there on occasion.
I'd say in the $400-500 range for a proper rifle case but a 28" barreled rifle puts you into the possibility of reconfiguring an existing shotgun case to suit your rifle.
There's lots more shotgun cases around than genuine rifle cases.
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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I'd go a little higher, say $800 - 1100. But I agree that you could probably find and reconfigure a shotgun case for a good bit less.
 
Posts: 661 | Location: Below sea level. | Registered: 21 March 2010Reply With Quote
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Your buddy was not at the Las Vegas gunshow in January!!

To be a proper replacement you want a similar UK built, takedown rifle case, preferably with the Army and Navy Lable in it... with patina.

I would call Kirby Hoyt at Vintage Doubles in Wenachee, WA. He has a big collection of proper cases and may be able to provide one for you??

The case my Jeffrey's I purchased at auction in 2021 is very similar to your photo. Another Trade maker case from UK....

I'm still keeping my eye open for you!!

Good Luck!!


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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I see that is a leather covering as well. My Jeffrey is canvas, my recent H&H ROYAL is leather and also similar.

I am going to say $12-1500 if a proper Brit double case, regardless of the label!!


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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I'm sticking to my valuation.
This is a hard leather case, not an Oak and Leather case.
The label is not an original.
The interior has been relined.
The overall exterior is pretty scruffy.

It's a nice case, but not a $1K+ case.
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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I have a lot of experience with vintage shotgun cases, but very little with rifle cases. That said, I say about $800.
 
Posts: 711 | Location: Corrales, New Mexico | Registered: 03 February 2013Reply With Quote
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I certainly see wood showing around the lower surround. It is dark, maybe not Oak, but Mahogany??

The nice reline on that case would have cost someone $800-1000, and the age patina on the exterior, exudes great journeys and stories... all adds value!!

This is clearly NOT a shotgun case!! They don't command the value of rifle cases...

Cheerz,


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I believe Rookhawk had a bunch of cases for sale. He was also advertising over on africahunting. That said I am also on the 800-1000 camp to replace it.
 
Posts: 370 | Location: USA | Registered: 26 March 2016Reply With Quote
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Are you kidding me? He misplaced it?

He needs to pay you the highest verifiable price for a comparable case.

Nothing less.


Mike

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Posts: 13329 | Location: New England | Registered: 06 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Are you kidding me? He misplaced it?

He needs to pay you the highest verifiable price for a comparable case.

Nothing less.


Mike,

"Misplaced" is the excuse. He's done this to others. There's a member on here who he sold his double and then strung him out with the same, "It's in storage" statement.

Ironically Cal Pappas found out it was sold to a gentleman in Australia months prior.

Odds are good my case has a new home somewhere as well.

Jim


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Odds are good my case has a new home somewhere as well.


No doubt! I wish you luck Jim. That guy is a well known thief, and has done this for decades. Long before the double rifle incident you refer to he was known for stringing people along for years on consignment sales claiming, your item hasn't sold yet so no money and no I can't give it back either because I left it in storage out of state when it was verified it sold long ago. Time and time again. He did it to Cal more than once and yet he still did business with him.

I've always been mystified at the number of guys that still use him and I've heard more than one say, "Sure, he's a crook, but he always gets the best prices just as long as he doesn't rob you." He's the living embodiment of the Chilkoot's motto of "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you." I don't ever willing deal with thieves as it wont end well and just enables them.

I really hope you get some kind of resolution but sadly wouldn't hold my breath.

Bob


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Posts: 810 | Location: MT | Registered: 14 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
quote:
Odds are good my case has a new home somewhere as well.


No doubt! I wish you luck Jim. That guy is a well known thief, and has done this for decades. Long before the double rifle incident you refer to he was known for stringing people along for years on consignment sales claiming, your item hasn't sold yet so no money and no I can't give it back either because I left it in storage out of state when it was verified it sold long ago. Time and time again. He did it to Cal more than once and yet he still did business with him.

I've always been mystified at the number of guys that still use him and I've heard more than one say, "Sure, he's a crook, but he always gets the best prices just as long as he doesn't rob you." He's the living embodiment of the Chilkoot's motto of "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you." I don't ever willing deal with thieves as it wont end well and just enables them.

I really hope you get some kind of resolution but sadly wouldn't hold my breath.

Bob


I wish Cal was still with us. He'd be the ultimate expert witness.


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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This same guy was whacked by the Feds within the last few years for Walrus Ivory dealings from the store as well??!! I don't know the outcome... but it could have resulted in a felony??... no more gun dealing??
This may have been a Govt overreach too?? He always sold Alaska native scrimshaw tusks and masks, and alot of smaller carvings....which I understood as legal? Maybe they were fishing or wrong too??

He was NOT at the Las Vegas gunshow in January. He has always been an icon big Exhibitor there...??


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by 470EDDY:
This same guy was whacked by the Feds within the last few years for Walrus Ivory dealings from the store as well??!! I don't know the outcome... but it could have resulted in a felony??... no more gun dealing??
This may have been a Govt overreach too?? He always sold Alaska native scrimshaw tusks and masks, and alot of smaller carvings....which I understood as legal? Maybe they were fishing or wrong too??

He was NOT at the Las Vegas gunshow in January. He has always been an icon big Exhibitor there...??


"Earl pleaded guilty to three felony wildlife trafficking counts under the federal Lacey Act and one count of tax evasion."

Convicted and sentenced


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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HOLY SMOKERS!!... pretty serious stuff!!... no more guns!! That will be painful!!
Was there jail time involved??
Is the Gallery still operating??

It is interesting that his wife was an officer of one of the courts in Anchorage!! She worked in the store too!!


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by 470EDDY:
HOLY SMOKERS!!... pretty serious stuff!!... no more guns!! That will be painful!!
Was there jail time involved??
Is the Gallery still operating??

It is interesting that his wife was an officer of one of the courts in Anchorage!! She worked in the store too!!


The store is still up and running. The article said he had 6 months home jail I guess.

Honestly, I'm not sure Walter ever had a true FFL to deal in firearms. He referred to them as antiques whenever I spoke with him.

After reading Omnivorous_Bob's post above I feel the fool for ever entering into this. The blame is solely on me.

Cheers
Jim


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I am sure he has/had an FFL, or the Feds would have added that too!!

How would you know? He has a very impressive store and always big, impressive displays at gunshows??!!

I have known him for 40+ years and have been in his store as many times as I have been to Anchorage.

I knew he was a wheeler, dealer, but not criminal bad??!! I almost bought some Walrus ivory from him, avoided guns... ALWAYS overpriced... but he had an interesting quirk, if you asked for a price, he would say:"price to you, out the door...." and usually quite a discount. He could read clients very well!!... always like an old friend!!

He did travel alot in the lower 48 to gunshows and did store inventory down here between shows....

Live n Learn....


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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I just verified with the previous owner this was a leather over oak case relined by Westley Richards before the double was shipped over from England.

Anyone want to update their valuation?


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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I still stick with my estimate of $1200-1500!! The COST to have WR reline, although probably done by one of their Trade partners would easily be this much!!
Oak and Leather is alot more expensive than the more typical oak and canvas for the Army and Navy doubles, a definite upgrade!!
If this one had a Westley Richards, Holland or Purdey label in it, I would expect $1800 or more for the same case!!....

Good Luck on Replacement!!... and Small Claims Court. Don't forget the pain and suffering and mental anguish, and fact the replacement is NOT THE ORIGINAL!!##@@&&%%%!!! Go for the MAX allowed by the Court!! No Mister Nice Guy when dealing with a Crook!! Mad Big Grin Cool

CheerZ


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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The owner of the shop needs a good old fashioned ass whipping.


My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost.
 
Posts: 6590 | Location: Cumberland Plateau, Tennessee | Registered: 22 February 2005Reply With Quote
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My wife and I visited this shop when we were in Alaska in 2015, and enjoyed seeing all the walrus ivory and local artifacts. (I had to practically carry my wife out of the section with all the fur coats)

It's a shame that it appears to be owned/run by a crook. I hate thieves with a vengeance! I'm sorry that happened to you, Frostbit....and I wish you luck in getting what is owed to you


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Posts: 3106 | Location: Hockley, TX | Registered: 01 October 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
I just verified with the previous owner this was a leather over oak case relined by Westley Richards before the double was shipped over from England.

Anyone want to update their valuation?


I take it that you are referring to me?

No, I will not update my evaluation.
You see, what is referred to as an "oak and leather' gun case is quite different to the case which was stolen from you.
The reason genuine oak and leather cases are so expensive is that the structure of an O&L case is in the wood entirely.
The oak frame, if you will, is built to a fine furniture standard of solid oak boards.
The corners, even though covered, are usually dovetail joints.
The top is hinged to the oak frame of the case with brass hinges screwed to the lower box rather than relying on hidden hinges or even the leather of the covering acting as the hinge.
O&L cases have a beveled exposed wood edge on the lower that aligns the top and bottom and to some extent seals the case when the top is closed into place.
The obvious identifier is the amount of exposed oak woodwork and of course the weight of the case alone that is the easy indicator of a real O&L case as used by the best gunmakers in the UK.

Generally, what is often referred to as a "hard leather case" as yours is, may indeed have a box made of oak or a alternate wood which is finger jointed (or sometimes corner blocked) in the corners.
The box is entirely covered as to hide any of the actual woodwork.
They are covered in pretty thick leather to add to the structural integrity but are not built to the standard of a best quality O&L case.

I'm not anything but an avid collector but did have the regrettable task of sorting through many ruined guncases and have had a firsthand education on the varying levels of guncase construction and how they stand up to a good flooding...
In fact, I sold an O&L case for a Purdey rifle #12345 out of the pile a few years ago as well as a W.J. Jeffery hard leather double rifle case both of which survived the debacle in pretty good fettle.


This is a good example of a traditional Oak and Leather Gun Case:
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Huvius:
quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
I just verified with the previous owner this was a leather over oak case relined by Westley Richards before the double was shipped over from England.

Anyone want to update their valuation?


I take it that you are referring to me?

No, I will not update my evaluation.
You see, what is referred to as an "oak and leather' gun case is quite different to the case which was stolen from you.
The reason genuine oak and leather cases are so expensive is that the structure of an O&L case is in the wood entirely.
The oak frame, if you will, is built to a fine furniture standard of solid oak boards.
The corners, even though covered, are usually dovetail joints.
The top is hinged to the oak frame of the case with brass hinges screwed to the lower box rather than relying on hidden hinges or even the leather of the covering acting as the hinge.
O&L cases have a beveled exposed wood edge on the lower that aligns the top and bottom and to some extent seals the case when the top is closed into place.
The obvious identifier is the amount of exposed oak woodwork and of course the weight of the case alone that is the easy indicator of a real O&L case as used by the best gunmakers in the UK.

Generally, what is often referred to as a "hard leather case" as yours is, may indeed have a box made of oak or a alternate wood which is finger jointed (or sometimes corner blocked) in the corners.
The box is entirely covered as to hide any of the actual woodwork.
They are covered in pretty thick leather to add to the structural integrity but are not built to the standard of a best quality O&L case.

I'm not anything but an avid collector but did have the regrettable task of sorting through many ruined guncases and have had a firsthand education on the varying levels of guncase construction and how they stand up to a good flooding...
In fact, I sold an O&L case for a Purdey rifle #12345 out of the pile a few years ago as well as a W.J. Jeffery hard leather double rifle case both of which survived the debacle in pretty good fettle.


This is a good example of a traditional Oak and Leather Gun Case:


Actually, I was not referring to you or anyone else on this thread specifically. I was relating information given to me by the previous owner by telephone maybe an hour before I posted.

I appreciate the time you put into your detailed response.

Do you have a case similar to my now AWOL case that you would like to sell me for $800?


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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The only leather cases I have now are housing guns.
I sold some good ones to Kirby Hoyt (Vintage Doubles) a few years ago - check with him, he may have some to offer.
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Huvius:
The only leather cases I have now are housing guns.
I sold some good ones to Kirby Hoyt (Vintage Doubles) a few years ago - check with him, he may have some to offer.


Already did last week as well as sending him the pictures in this thread for a guesstimated valuation.


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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If you are using the information for purposes of suing the shit out of this guy, lets see. "Bespoke custom antique case over a century old, professionally upgraded by one of the finest rifle manufacturers in the world" Has to be worth at least $14,500....
 
Posts: 568 | Location: Escaped to Montana  | Registered: 01 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Two hours ago I got a call from Walter Earl, the convicted felon owner of The Antique Gallery, telling me he found my double case under some cardboard in the back of the store.

I picked it up an hour ago.

Mr. Earl still does shows in the lower 48 and I checked online, there is no FFL in his name or in the stores name so I would suggest anyone be very careful in dealing with him.


Cheers
Jim


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Well Done, Jim!! A little forceful encouragement with some deadlines works miracles!!

Poor old Walter Earl has been distracted by his own misdeeds!!

Glad he came clean!!

CheerZ,


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Mr. Earl still does shows in the lower 48 and I checked online, there is no FFL in his name or in the stores name so I would suggest anyone be very careful in dealing with him.


I'm in no way defending the guy, but I don't recall seeing anything on his table/display that required an FFL for purchase.
Glad your case is back where it belongs!
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Huvius:
quote:
Mr. Earl still does shows in the lower 48 and I checked online, there is no FFL in his name or in the stores name so I would suggest anyone be very careful in dealing with him.


I'm in no way defending the guy, but I don't recall seeing anything on his table/display that required an FFL for purchase.
Glad your case is back where it belongs!


He took my functioning 1902 double on consignment for sale, then handed it to a friend to return to me months later with no 4473.

He also sold that same friends double to a gentleman from Australia and withheld the sale funds from my friend for 6 months while using similar excuses given to me about my missing case. Cal Pappas discovered the double was sold to the gent in Australia while chatting with him on a hunt.

Yes, he has sold firearms and has had them for sale in his shop.

Perhaps he has stopped selling firearms since his felony conviction, which would be a wise choice.


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Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
I'm in no way defending the guy, but I don't recall seeing anything on his table/display that required an FFL for purchase.
Glad your case is back where it belongs!


HUMMMMMM...I have never seen anything but guns on his tables last 30 years!!... well maybe a bust of Teddy Roosevelt he had cast and was selling for ridiculous prices??!!
He wasn't at the Big Las Vegas show in January where he usually had the entry room with all kinds of stuff...
Life's choices drive changes... big time for Walter... but maybe he doesn't care either??


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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"Oh poor Walter. I've never been a Walter Earl fan I hate to see it. If I know Walter he'll do like Bob Francis did at WR in Springfield. Just never be seen handling a gun and use someone else's FFL. "

Quote from a friend in Anchorage!!

Bob Francis, on the other hand was salt of the earth and he got caught up in some kind of a handgun issue at a gunshow that cost him his gun rights... maybe wrongfully?? But he also had a huge pawn shop operation in Springfield....

GO FIGURE!! BUYER BEWARE...


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Huvius
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quote:
HUMMMMMM...I have never seen anything but guns on his tables last 30 years!!


As well as a load of artwork, Native American artifacts etc.
Point is, every gun I've seen on his tables and all I ever bought from him was a pre 1898 so no FFL involved.
 
Posts: 3232 | Location: Colorado U.S.A. | Registered: 24 December 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Frostbit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Huvius:
quote:
HUMMMMMM...I have never seen anything but guns on his tables last 30 years!!


As well as a load of artwork, Native American artifacts etc.
Point is, every gun I've seen on his tables and all I ever bought from him was a pre 1898 so no FFL involved.


If that was the case then why would he consign my 1902 functional firearm for sale at a lower 48 show and later have it on display for sale at his shop?


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Hunt Reports

2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112
2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141
 
Posts: 7572 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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That's NOT the Walter I have known for over 40 years, including many years at our local gunshows!!


470EDDY
 
Posts: 2539 | Location: The Other Washington | Registered: 24 March 2003Reply With Quote
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10 years ago Id have had a come to Jesus conversation with him..today Id turn it over to my lawyer..a that sucks solution..


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 41758 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Jim, as you know i owned the rifle and case. Simon Clode, my now deceased friend charged me $2k if i . correctly.I thought i wrote you a letter to that effect. Fly me to Alaska and ill be a witness for you. Smiler


York, SC
 
Posts: 1129 | Registered: 13 March 2005Reply With Quote
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