These happened today with some five year old handloads in my .458 Lott.





Never had a problem before with these (getting around 2,150 chronographed fps) and shot around 10 other rounds with no problems, along with five Hornady factory loads.

No pressure signs whatsoever. But when these split, man did the gas fly.

Almost looks like excessive headspace. It's BeLL brass and NOS - and as I said, I have never had a problem with it in this rifle before.

Nothing obvious. No damage to the rifle.

It's got me worried, as I am taking this rifle to Africa in a couple of weeks. Any ideas?

Thanks.

How many times was the brass reloaded? How old was the brass? Are you shooting a factory rifle or a custom/ rebarrel?

What's your chamber look like now?

I would scrap them and work up loads using Hornady brass instead. I think their brass is of better quality and consistancy. Thats what I use and never had an issue. Why risk staying with Bell brass.

Brass was new unfired. I have owned the rifle for several years, fired several hundred rounds from it, hunted Africa with it using ammunition from this same batch and never had this problem.

I have not cleaned the rifle yet, but the chamber looks fine to me.

I can't tell for sure from the pics, but they do look like the brass is really thin near the head. Either that or the cases are made from some brittle brass and/or there is a dimensional mismatch between them and the chamber.

Did you measure the diameter of unfired samples from the same batch? Maybe you have some undersized cases. Or a slightly oversized chamber?

That is pretty frightening looking brass.

Longitudinal axis of case belt splitting!!!
I have never seen anything like that before.

It is not the excessive headspace kind of head separation.

Must be some metallurgical flaw in the brass.

BELL, BeLL, MAST or whatever has not been made for a while.

"BeLL and NOS?" Two different kinds of brass though?

NOS? Nosler or what?

I really don't know what to think about that.

Could there have been some corrosive process that etched the internal surface of the case and weakened it?

If it was a chamber dimension versus brass dimension problem it would become evident from measuring the cases before and after firing.

I am just whistling in the dark, but my tune is "Bad Brass Metallurgy, Defective Brass Manufacturing, or Brass Sabotage."

Maybe section some cases before firing and see if there are any visible irregulatities or flaws inside?
They do look very thin in the split areas visible.

+1 for Hornady .458 Lott and their Belted Basic brass both have lasted thru several firings in my rifle loaded with 500gr bullets at 2,250fps.

It is BeLL headstamped. NOS means "New, Old Stock" and that's what it was when I bought it, just before BeLL went south and MAST took it over.

Hell, if this was an obvious thing, I'd have figured it out.

I have never seen anything like this. I'm hoping someone else may have had the same problem and can offer some guidance.

Thanks.

Hey, I can tell you little, I think that perhaps has been the lot of bullets that were defective, however I would go to consult with a dealer, especially if you're soon going to a safari.

A greeting and care,

Oscar.

Very interesting! I have never seen this before and god knows I've seen lots of blown brass in my time.Pse section some of that brass with a dremel tool and a cut off wheel and compare it to a new Hornady case sectioned similarily. My guess is not excessive headspace as in magnums it usually manifests itself as a case head seaparation well above the belt., but rather brittle or defectively thin brass above the belt. The hole starts above the belt then plasma torches into the belt vertically. Pse measure the belt as it also may be dimensionally incorrect. Keep shooting that stuff and it will burn your chamber and potentially be very dangerous to you.Deep six that stuff asap-Rob

I'd like to take a close look at one of those cases ! You're talking about a magnum case .Such a case is very thick toward the head and this is the strongest part of the case . Yet the splits occur there and even go into the belt.Something is wrong with the brass. That doesn't even seem to be a stress corrosion cracking problem such as seen at case mouths .If you'd like to send me one of the cases I'll cut it up and see if I can find the problem.

fyi, BeLL and Mast are the same company, the machines didn't move, but the company name changed, though jim still ran everything. Only when sold to jamison did the machines move

cases look to be radically too thin, please section vertically. If you need help with that, send me a case, and I'll do it

I've had that happen to me with my 416 on 2nd reload. It was faulty brass. So I would think you got ahold of some faulty brass. New or not.

Thanks for all of the advice.

I concur with the consensus that this must be a brass problem.

I will section the base of one of the split cases. I will also take apart one of the live rounds and section the base of that one too. Finally, I will section one of the Hornadys.

I will post photos of the sectioned brass.

Howdy,

What type of cleaning solvent do you use to clean the rifle????

If it contains ammonia be careful to remove all of it from the rifle and don't store it near your brass. Stress corrosion cracking can result.

Here is an excellent article-
http://www.hghouston.com/coppers/brass77.htm

Adios

Sport

ZOWIE!!!

I haven't had that problem yet with my BeLL .458 Lott brass. I'm going to cut some cases to compare with the upcoming photos.

That is a really good point! Come to think of it I have seen brass corroded by exposure to ammonia corrosion crack similar to what has happened here. Any chance this brass was cleaned in an amonia salt containing cleaner before use 5 years ago?-Rob

Not by me and not to my knowledge.

Here are the sectioned cases: (1) the once fired split BeLL case, followed by (2) the once fired Hornady and (3) the unfired BeLL.







Apart from the splits, when sectioned, the two BeLL cases look pretty much identical. No thinning anywhere that I can see.

The Hornady case, when sectioned, shows that it has a much stronger construction.

I have to think that the brass in the BeLL cases, or some of them, is bad.

I just read that article that Sport Fulton posted on stress corrosion cracking in brass and noticed this:

"Stress corrosion cracking in brass is usually localised and, if ammonia has been involved, may be accompanied by black staining of the surrounding surface . . . . The cracks run roughly perpendicular to the direction of the tensile stress involved. For example, drawn brass tube that has not been stress relief annealed has a built-in circumferential hoop-stress; consequently exposure to an ammoniacal environment is liable to cause longitudinal cracking."

Then I noticed the black stains inside the unfired BeLL case. To my knowledge, the only thing that has seen the inside of that case since it was made is 83 grains of Vihta Vuori N540. Does that have any ammonia in it?

Very interesting, indeed!
And I would also try to find the cause, but never would I worry that there was anything wrong with loading or rifle.
IMO, this is entierly a brass broblem, and you could not help it no more than turning your head after a pretty girl.

But again, it would be interesting to find the true cause for the brass to behave like that.

That's a serious defect in the brass.Unfortunately I no longer have access to a laboratory as I'm ret'd.
Stress corrosion cracking requires stress,oxygen ,moisture and a corroding substance. The British army found out about it in the 1800s in India. It occurred only during the wet season therefore the term 'season cracking'.The corroding substance was ammonia and other nitrogen compounds created during thunderstorms ! Ammo companies now anneal the necks to prevent this.Powders are made of cellulose nitrate.When they break down they will release nitrogen compounds.As mentioned ammonia based cleaners [bore cleaners and even household cleaners] can be the problem..

I have to say the area above the belt sure doesnt impress me, but the longitudinal cracks have me concerned. Look carefully at about ten of the unfired and sectioned Bell cases under a microscope or strong magnifying lens and see if you can detect any vertical lines or cracks in the bass at the point of failure. You will need very strong lighting for this. It may be as random as 1:10 that has the problem so you need to look at a bunch of cases. Inspect both the inside and the outside of the cases and look for any cracks or lines.
When I had similar problems with CCI35 primers, I eventually found some of the cups had very hard to see incipient scratches that were actually cracks that burned through on firing.
A whole bunch of FCSA guys had the same problem, which CCI eventually admitted to and corrected. They claimed we had exposed their primers to ammonia, but eventually admitted to having had a run of copper cups that were not properly annealed before forming. We nailed them dead to rights on this and almost took them to court! Pse inspect carefully and let us know.
I would have expected the case to be heavily blackened had there been a strong exposure to ammonia or its salts. While it is possible that your powder decomposed to some extent over time and temp( it would require a reductive process to produce ammonia from Cellulose nitrates), I would have expected the same heavy blackening of the case walls. Not there, so I doubt thats it. My bet is defective brass( probably improperly annealed before forming) with incipient cracks in the most vulnerable area.-Rob

So is this just a bad batch of Bell cases or is it symptomatic of a larger problem with Bell brass? I'm concerned because it seems like Bell makes the most reasonablly priced brass for the 470 Capstick. The only other brass I've seen is A-Square and Quality.

Regards, Chuck

Brass is made by 'back extruding' where a slug of brass is put in a female die and the male die is pushed into the slug.The brass flows up between the male and female dies.This is not a one step process but goes through a number of dies with annealing steps in between.Done improperly it can cause cracks.The unfired cases could also be inspected inside and out for cracks.I once found transverse cracking where the side and bottom of the case meet. This was due to improper forming of the end of the male die.
Stress corrosion cracking can occur without any noticeable discoloration !

I doubt its a symptomatic problem. These tend to be small sized random events when a poor batch of brass is used, improperly annealed or some procedure is not followed. I'm dead certain that the routine quality control at Bell would detect this if it was a problem that occured at a statistically significant event rate or for sure they would be made aware by many many pissed off litigeous clients. The problem is when it happens to you! I'd confirm first that it actually is a defective brass problem as i outlined, then contact Bell so that they can figure out how to insure it doesnt happen again. CCI was totally irresponsible and refused to recall the primer lots we identified. I just hope one of our warriors in IraQ or Afganistan isnt harmed by their incompetence.-Rob

The BeLL brass is definitely less robust than the Hornady in cross section.

The comparison to defective 50BMG primers by Rob seems very plausible here: Defective annealing in the brass drawing process.

Scanning electron microscopy, X-ray analysis, gas chromatographic analysis of the alloy, and hydraulic pressure destructive testing might also be helpful.

The only 470 Capstick brass I can find online is A-Square, Quality Cartridge and Bell. Bell is half the price of the other two, I was hoping it was good.

Chuck

I am going to disassemble these loads and salvage the powder and bullets, but deactivate the primers and chuck all of the brass.

What a disappointment.

If I can find the time, I will examine the brass for signs of stress corrosion/incipient cracking. It's Hornady for me in the Lott from now on - those Hornady cases are well constructed.

Howdy

What is required is a metallographic examination(mounted and cross sectioned) of the cracked areas to evaluatate the grain stucture in the vicinity of the fractures-this will should point in the direction of the actual cause. Then perhaps SEM-EDS or SEM-FIB-EDS.

Gas Chromatography was mentioned - dude must be a "consultant".

Adios

Sport

I wish I was still working , I'd do it for you. Chromatograpy and SEM is probably not needed. SCC is not likely. Cracks from improper anneal or inclusions in the brass are the most probable.

The cracked areas are plasma torched to the point NOTHING will be seen on SEM but melted brass. Been there and done that. What you want is to section the rest of your brass and look carefully. Its usually obvious!-Rob

Howdy,

I agree, the fired cases would be of little use for evaluation due to the heat/melting.

UNFIRED cases with evidence of cracks, black areas on the ID of the case, WOULD be the best to evaluate by sectioning and SEM-EDS for issues related to contamination etc.

I suspect the inside of the chamber has localized damage, it might be ok if the damage is not too severe.

Adios and interesting discussion.

Sport

You really should have the chamber looked at and at least polished up with 400grit emery cloth. When the CCI35 primers I described above burned through ( incipient cracks) they plasma torched the bolt face of at least 10 guns including two of mine. The erosion was evident on the bolt after 1 firing. Now a .50BMG uses way more powder and the plasma torch effect lasted a lot longer but it did do an unexpected amount of damage to my 8620 steel bolt. This was NOT a pretty picture.Final resolution to this was new bolts at CCI's expense.-Rob

I took the Lott back to the range yesterday, after a thorough clean up. I shot some of the new Hornady DGS flat point solids and some old Interlock softs in factory loads.

No problems whatsoever. First three DGS solids were a perfect cloverleaf inside the X-ring at 50 yards.

The chamber looks fine, although I don't have a bore scope. Feeding and extraction were fine. The fired cases looked normal. Has to be the BeLL brass. At times like this, I wish I were a metallurgist!