Circa 1912

I have been shooting the 404 longer than most of you have lived and I read everything I can on the cartridge..It is my all time favorite big bore. I can shoot it 40 times or much more and not suffer any side effects. With such rounds as the .458 Lott and up, I get numbed.

The facts are the 404 was a bit enemic to begin with and lots of complaints came about from the 2100 FPS loadings, so RWS increased velocity to about 2200 as I recall then to 2300 plus sometime later and that load was accepted with great praise and that is the load that made the 404 famous if, in fact, a particular load did. I suspect bullet construction may have been the source of early complaints but who knows?

What did make the 404 famous was costs of guns and ammo, and availability, and the fact that many of the African Game Dept's. and culling crew divisions were issued the 404 FN comm. rifles in the 404 Jeffery's caliber, and they are still in use in parts of Africa such as Tanzania..Thusly these guns became available at one time through certain channels to the general public at an affordable price..The .416 Rigby on the other hand was never all that poplular and was the baby child of Rouark and Hemmingway, got rave reviews in books just like Dirty Harry sold a million 44 magnums. Not to say that the Rigby isn't a fine gun.

Just my take, but the bottom line is the 404 can dance on the 416 Rigbys poarch and come within a 100 FPS of duplicating the Rigby, after all case volume is very close indeed. I know of hunters who load the Rigby to near 2800 FPS, but again most load them at 2400 FPs

The 404 has consistently been underloaded for several reasons that I won't go into but a few of those reasons have been a lack of knowledge combined with the printed word, use of the wrong powders, and nostalgia..

Todays modern 404 and even the original Jefferys can propel a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 to 2500 or more FPS with ease, and can be loaded in such a manner according to most reloading manuals..

I,have personally loaded all of my 404s to 2650 FPS at one time or another, and gotten as many as 10 to 14 loadings with a trim about every 4th loading...

But the magic velocity according to the guys in the know and supported by the masses is 2400 FPS in most big bores. My std. 404 load is a 400 gr. Woodleigh, North Fork or GS Customs and 93 grs.of IMR-4831. Recoil is mild and blast is less and its a kinder, gentler rifle to shoot.

It's just a great caliber, no better than a .416 Rem or Ruger, but its an old warrior and that has proven itself for several hundred years in the African veldt..

Sir Von Gruff,
At your request, as long as Alf Smith, Casey Lewis, and Pierre van der Walt permit,
I post the scans you sent.
They were pdf files, which will not upload directly to my Photobucket.
So I had to print them and scan them again to jpg file format.
That is as computer literate as I can get for file format conversion.
Hopefully not degraded too much by these gyrations.
Thanks.

.404 Jeffery -- The Full Monty
By Casey Lewis and Alf Smith
Big Bore Journal No. 21 March 2007









Still More on the .404
Research by Col. Casey Lewis & Dr. Alf Smith -- Text by Pierre van der Walt
Big Bore Journal No.21 June 2007

Thanks Rip. Hopefully it will be of interest and add a little more to the general knowledge.

Von Gruff.

I have a late BSA .404. It's not a pretty baby, being afflicted with a '50's era Monte Carlo stock but pretty is as pretty does. I like it. It knocks soft-skinned game off its feet and will handily take a buffalo though it's best if you shoot one that isn't pissed off! I have refrained from sullying it with a scope. She shoots so well with a Redfield peep from the same time that I am content. My only gripe is that California hasn't anything big to shoot with it!

Nothing to big to shoot here either but it sure puts paid to small stuff. Not a historicaly significant rifle. One I helped put together on a 50's FN action. Dont need a scope either with an aperture


Von Gruff.

Always liked this photo VG (and the 404), photo shop it to a moon scene and we could have the start sequence to "2011 A Space Odyssey".

At one time apparently there was a 300 gr bullet .Does anyone use anything other than the 400 ?

A little tidbit regarding the .404 is (I think) the famous Baird ram was shot here in Alberta with a .404J in the early 1900's. Apparently Baird liked the cartridge as a fast hard hitting one. Does anyone have any more info regarding this story?

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
At one time apparently there was a 300 gr bullet .Does anyone use anything other than the 400 ?

Yes, there was a Kynoch loading with a 300 grn bullet, apparently for hill shooting in the Himalayas. I have a few boxes of the original 300 grn Kynochs

I purchased several boxes of 300 and 350 gr. Barnes X bullet at one time..I shot a deer with the 300s and it performed quite well with a 2.5 to 3 inch exit hole, good blood trail and the deer ran probably 60 yards..I shot a couple of buffalo with the 350s and I couldn't tell much difference in them and the 400 gr. Barnes X bullets..But thats about it. I still prefer the 450 gr. Woodleigh softs and GS Customs flat nose solids or just use the North Fork cup points and forget all the other bullets..Those cup points work on duiker to Hippo and Buffalo..Never used one on elephant so don't know, but if I were after elephant I would use the GS Customs flat nose solid and feel very secure in the results to follow.

In reality and except for experimental purposes I see no reason to use light bullets in any big bore, better to shoot the 300 gr. bullets in the 338, 9.3x62 or the 375. They sure work well in these calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
It's just a great caliber, no better than a .416 Rem or Ruger, but its an old warrior and that has proven itself for several hundred years in the African veldt..

Well, perhaps has proven itslf for many decades in Africa, but surely not "several hundred years"?

It is a great cartridge though. In fact, much as I like the work of Taylor (I own first editions of all of his books and re-read them regularly) it was his comments on the .404 Jeffery and its' little brother the 10.75x68 which first made me realize how much of his writing was personal hunter's opinion and not science.

As for me, the .404 Jeffery cartridge is my first choice for a "world all around rifle", the impossible holy grail. It's been almost 50 years since I've been without one. Hopefully, they'll tenderly lay the Musgrave in the final box with me....

There are some buffalo in Golden Gate Park .

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
I have a late BSA .404. It's not a pretty baby, being afflicted with a '50's era Monte Carlo stock but pretty is as pretty does. I like it. It knocks soft-skinned game off its feet and will handily take a buffalo though it's best if you shoot one that isn't pissed off! I have refrained from sullying it with a scope. She shoots so well with a Redfield peep from the same time that I am content. My only gripe is that California hasn't anything big to shoot with it!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
There are some buffalo in Golden Gate Park .

Yes, and their mother, the old cow Nancy Pelosi. She's only legal game at the ballot box, but then life ain't always fair...so we should be hqppy to just use our votes as best we can and stay as law-abiding as we can too.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Circa 1912

You have some pictures of fine rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
Nothing to big to shoot here either but it sure puts paid to small stuff. Not a historicaly significant rifle. One I helped put together on a 50's FN action. Dont need a scope either with an aperture




Von Gruff.

Now that is some sweet iron, Von Gruff. Should I ever come into some spare money I'll have mine done just like it.

From member sevenmagltd.:

1947 vintage he says.
9 Golden Square is the correct address for 1927 to 1955, then moving to 5 B Pall Mall, London, until acquired by H&H ... according to Lewis & Smith.

What is this rifle worth to the willing (delirious) buyer?

6.5 Wildcatter:

Is your "404 Ruger African" chambered for the wildcat .423/.375 Ruger?
If not, and it is actually a 404 Jeffery in a 7.75# Ruger Hawkeye, then that is a nice trick.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
From member sevenmagltd.:

What is this rifle worth to the willing (delirious) buyer?

Not much, couple of hundred bucks maybe.

Has to be a Magnum action and made pre war to be worth more.


(Tin foil hat on).

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
A little tidbit regarding the .404 is (I think) the famous Baird ram was shot here in Alberta with a .404J in the early 1900's. Apparently Baird liked the cartridge as a fast hard hitting one. Does anyone have any more info regarding this story?

Do you mean the "Chadwick Ram," shot by Mr. L. S. Chadwick's Hoffman Arms 404 Jeffery with a 300-grain bullet?
In British Columbia, Muskwa River, 1936?
Still the No. 1 Stone Sheep, in Boone & Crockett.
Yes, we can dig up more on that! If that is what you mean ...

Or was a Mr. Baird copycatting Mr. Chadwick?

It is a .423"/375 Ruger. The performance is that of a well loaded 404J, though the African is closer to 9 lbs with a scope, and I prefer it no lighter for quick follow ups.

My well trodden 404 in a 1931 Type A Mauser standard length action conversion. And yes Oldsarge I have sullied it with a scope but after all I do see it as a work horse with a job to do. As Von Gruff says there's nothing big and dangerous frequenting the vege gardens here in our country but it has taken a few red deer and goats over the years. Really got used to good effect on buffalo in the Oz top end and is presently hankering for a trip back to Africa where it came from in '77.

http://404jeffery.blogspot.com/

Von Gruff.

Y'know I got confused again, it's the second time in a day I got cunfused too....must be getting old. It was indeed the "chadwick" ram.

From the 12th Edition ,
Boone and Crockett Club's
RECORDS OF NORTH AMERICAN BIG GAME,
the all time most outstanding North American trophy,
here is the best summary on the Chadwick Ram, though it shows Mr. Chadwick was a bad shot, and out of shape for the followup,
and does not mention he was using a 404 Jeffery.
His guide had to finish it.
Mr. Chadwick was using the 300-grain loading of the 404 Jeffery, which was a 2600 fps load.
My "African Sheep Rifle/Mountain Buffalo" load for the 404 Jeffery is a 340-grain North Fork SP at +2700 fps MV
in an M70 Winchester with a Brown Precision fiberglass stock:







The specifications of the 404 Jeffery used on the Chadwick Ram will have to wait until I dig it up,
or "sumbuddy who know?"

From George A. Hoyem's
THE HISTORY AND DEVELOPMENT OF SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION
VOLUME THREE
(BRITISH SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES)
PAGE 108:





We still do not have any evidence other than "conjecture"
to date the 404 Jeffery to 1904.
Plenty for 1905.
That still makes it the first ever bolt action DGR.

I still say that "404" means a "40-plus-caliber 4-shooter."
Not "The 40 of '04."

I cannot add to the history dicussion of the 404 Jeffery but can attest to it's effectiveness as a great round for use in Africa and beyond.

In my opinion, the 404 Jeffery is a very well balanced cartridge. More case capacity than the 416 Remington, easily reaching 2400+ fps with 400 grain bullets yet can be made into a much trimmer and ligther rifle than a 416 Rigby.

Hard to think of a better choice of chambering for a DG bolt rifle that can also be an all around rifle for use in Africa and other places around the world....

See Kynoch again lists 404 ammo and still at the 2125fps. They perpetuate the 1910 date as well.


.404 Rimless Nitro Express



http://www.new-kynoch.apt-site...4%20Rimless%20NE.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The .404 Rimless Nitro Express was introduced by Jeffery for their bolt action rifles around 1910. It was designed to replicate the ballistics of the popular 450/400 and rifles were made by various well known makers at the time which included Jeffery, Cogswell & Harrison and Westley Richards.
BULLET
WEIGHT
IN
GRAINS BARREL
LENGTH
IN
INCHES PRESSURE
at 15°C in
tons per
sq. in. MUZZLE 50 YARDS 100 YARDS
VELOCITY
Feet per
Second ENERGY
Foot/lbs VELOCITY
Feet per
Second ENERGY
Foot/lbs VELOCITY
Feet per
Second ENERGY
Foot/lbs
400g S/SN 28" 16 2125 4010 1996 3540 1872 3115


Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:
I cannot add to the history dicussion of the 404 Jeffery but can attest to it's effectiveness as a great round for use in Africa and beyond.

In my opinion, the 404 Jeffery is a very well balanced cartridge. More case capacity than the 416 Remington, easily reaching 2400+ fps with 400 grain bullets yet can be made into a much trimmer and ligther rifle than a 416 Rigby.

Hard to think of a better choice of chambering for a DG bolt rifle that can also be an all around rifle for use in Africa and other places around the world....

Very well said. Man I'd love to have one but they are hard to find as are gunmakers that can make one that feeds properly. jorge

George Hoyem bases his 1910 date on the fact that he got the info from the 1910/1911 Jeffery catalog and this he published in his two book series of old Brit catalogs.

The 1904/1905 Jeffery catalog has no mention of the 404 but in the follow on to that Jeffery as shown in the pics above clearly refer to their 404 of 1905.

The Eley submission to the Birmingham Proof House ( and this is the earliest drawing on file with them ) is dated October of 1905. I have copy of that drawing as well as all of the subsequent submissions.

a 1905 model that is slowly rising from the dead

SKB,
Outstanding and I particularly like that thick cut out inside floorplate, the best and most economical way I know to make an extra round or two work through a bolt gun that only holds 3 down without changing its design..Not used very often these days and thats a wonder IMO. Great gun, thanks for sharing that one with us.

Are there any 404 Jef. dubble rifles build? I think I read in one of Taylors books of a 425 build in dubble.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
George Hoyem bases his 1910 date on the fact that he got the info from the 1910/1911 Jeffery catalog and this he published in his two book series of old Brit catalogs.

The 1904/1905 Jeffery catalog has no mention of the 404 but in the follow on to that Jeffery as shown in the pics above clearly refer to their 404 of 1905.

The Eley submission to the Birmingham Proof House ( and this is the earliest drawing on file with them ) is dated October of 1905. I have copy of that drawing as well as all of the subsequent submissions.

No, Alf, Mr. Hoyem says the 1907 testimonial published in the 1910 catalog proves that the 404 Jeffery was well tried in the field by 1907,
thus establishing 1907 OR EARLIER birth year for the 404 Jeffery.

Of course the late 1905 drawing and spec dates (October 1905) indicate 1905 as inception year.

Is 1904 merely conjecture?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
From the 12th Edition ,
Boone and Crockett Club's
it shows Mr. Chadwick was a bad shot, and out of shape for the followup,
----------------------------------
His guide had to finish it.

Rip

Please give the guy a break! I know that he was about the same age that you are now, but you MUST remember that this all happened in 1936.

How many people lived to 62 in 1936?! Chadwick was an old, old man for the time. It would be like an 82 year old taking a world record ram today....

To interesting side notes: it has been said that JOC said, when speaking of the Chadwick ram, that the 404 was the worst sheep cartridge imaginable. Another story that has made the rounds is that that Chadwick killed his ram on a short trip from camp while only looking for camp meat.

Nice one,SKB.The drob in that comb looks identical to the rifle Ralph built for me.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
From the 12th Edition ,
Boone and Crockett Club's
it shows Mr. Chadwick was a bad shot, and out of shape for the followup,
----------------------------------
His guide had to finish it.

Rip

Please give the guy a break! I know that he was about the same age that you are now, but you MUST remember that this all happened in 1936.

How many people lived to 62 in 1936?! Chadwick was an old, old man for the time. It would be like an 82 year old taking a world record ram today....

To interesting side notes: it has been said that JOC said, when speaking of the Chadwick ram, that the 404 was the worst sheep cartridge imaginable. Another story that has made the rounds is that that Chadwick killed his ram on a short trip from camp while only looking for camp meat.

JBrown,
Yes, rather rude of me to say that of an elder, who was 6 years older than I am now.
He was probably in better shape than I am now,
though I did run 2 miles in 9 minutes and 25 seconds, when I was an 18 y.o.
I have been in shape before, and know what it was like, though the memory is getting vague.
And I have also shot game in the brisket at 342 yards, though I was using a .416 Rigby, not a 404 Jeffery.

Forgive me, please.

If you have any references to the Chadwick Ram that also mention the 404 Jeffery,
whether from JOC or whomever,
please post a pointer.
I have forgotten where I have read of that so many times before.
Could be Alzheimer's or Sometimer's Disease, setting in.

Rip

I guess I should have put some smiley faces in my post, I really was just giving you a hard time.

And sorry for adding 6 years to your age. I guess I was just going on what you have accomplished.

But the fact remains that Chadwick, at 62, was a very old man in 1936. Very few people lived to 62 back then.

I will look for some Chadwick/JOC references.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Rip
I guess I should have put some smiley faces in my post, I really was just giving you a hard time.
And sorry for adding 6 years to your age. I guess I was just going on what you have accomplished.

Now a brief critical review of a book by Jack O'Connor:

Sheep and Sheep Hunting
Memorial Edition from Winchester Press:
"The definitive book on the wild sheep."

Review: It is a damn fine book as evidenced by this excerpt, pages 157 and 158:





My 404 Jeffery "Sheep Rifle" weighs 8.5 pounds,
is a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless rebarrel in a Brown Precision fiberglass stock,
and is accurate for sheep out to 300 yards,
with North Fork 340-grain SPs at +2700 fps MV,
if only I am not too winded to do my part
and if I get the right Kentucky Windage.

3 inches high at 100 yards with the light and fast bullet of ho-hum BC >>> about 8" low at 300 yards.
Low enough to hit a sheep brisket!!!

Shot number one was the fouling shot from a clean barrel, then it settled down.

Thanks Ron, does indeed appear to be a "damn fine book"