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posted
Barnes doesn't makem any more...can't hunt with lead in my area of CA...Don't want to scrap the family heirloom model 71

What can be done?


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 9451 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Park the vintage 71 in a display case for you and your heirs to enjoy. Take a leisurely drive down to Bubba's Guns and Feed Supply and buy a $399 bolt gun in something cheap to shoot like .308 and call it done. OR contact GSC - they also make a half dozen bullets in the .348 range - PM Gerard and see what he has...
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Well...unfortunately I don't want to park it on the mantle and if you are talking about Gerard the RSA guy, I won't do business with him.


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 9451 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Mike I haven't tried this but figure it would be possible to size even pure copper down in steps using push through sizer dies. Say .358 to .348 in three steps355/351/348? Imagine you'll need a decent sized press and some good lube. I size speer .277 to .270 in one pass, not much resistance with the cup and core bullets and some lube on them.
 
Posts: 1681 | Registered: 15 October 2006Reply With Quote
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You would be shearing off copper in this meathod. The solid bullet doesn't have the soft lead center to "give" and let the thin copper cup resize to the die.

If you new somebody with a centerless grinder have him grind the O.D. from .358 down to .348

Or buy whatever copper .358 you would like to try and send a handfull to me and I will O.D. grind you some to .348 Dia.

P.M. me.


________________________________________________
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Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment including PayPal
 
Posts: 7254 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Get a good mold and cast them from silver, which is non toxic and the density is close to lead.

It's trading at $9.50 an ounce right now and 1 ounce = 437.5 grains, so two bullets per ounce maybe.

CA DFG would have to certify sterling silver under the law.

Sight in with a water trap backing to recover every bullet to melt and recast.

Plus you'd be ready for any werewolf that came along, how many guys can claim that. Big Grin
 
Posts: 4516 | Registered: 14 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Plus you'd be ready for any werewolf that came along, how many guys can claim that.


You'd be surprised... Big Grin
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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A $4.75 bullet WOW Eeker


________________________________________________
Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Proudly made in the USA
Acepting all forms of payment including PayPal
 
Posts: 7254 | Location: South East Missouri | Registered: 23 November 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
if you are talking about Gerard the RSA guy, I won't do business with him.

If you drive a car with a catalytic converter, you are probably doing business with us. We don't mind, we don't hold a grudge.

GSC have solved the problems you brought up some years ago and we have moved on to better delivery methods. As I recall, that was your only problem. Good product but awfully slow delivery at times. It took time to get things in place, especially when the shipping goalposts kept on moving. The goalposts are still not firmly fixed but we got it licked eventually.

You can now get GSC bullets in the USA and in some cases get obscure product faster than from a USA source.

We do a 180gr .348 HV that works a treat in lever actions. Reasonably priced too.

quote:
doesn't makem any more

Life's a bitch when companies discontinue products, or just stop production altogether, when one has come to rely on the availability of an item.
 
Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Mr. Corbin, Dave, corbins.com/swage.com, has a list of bullet makers on his site(s). They will make you anything you desire and can afford. [Of course, many use equipment made by Mr. Corbin, surprise.] Swaging solid copper is no problem with a hydralic press and in the list there is no doubt someone with a .348 die that should suit you. luck.
 
Posts: 519 | Registered: 29 August 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
We do a 180gr .348 HV that works a treat in lever actions. Reasonably priced too.


Gerard, you should send Mike a box just to soothe him Big Grin

And please have your bullets certified by the California Dept. of Fish and Game, it's an easy process.

Nonlead Certification Information for ammo manufacturers

So they can add your products to "The List" of condor safe, lead fragment free, environmentally sensitive, Schwarzenneger approved high velocity projectiles for 'terminating' timid woodland creatures. shame

Certified Nonlead Ammunition Information
 
Posts: 4516 | Registered: 14 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Mike, you might want to ask the new Northfork guy, see if he'll make a run of them without the lead core. Not sure what the weight or performance would be thou.

Next option, hawk Barnes and see if they'll make a run of them.


Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I've stayed alive.
 
Posts: 711 | Location: Michigan , USA | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Probably won't help but I have 10 boxes of Barnes Orginal bullets in 348... Can't recall the wieght right now But I think they are 250's???


Handmade paracord rifle slings: paracordcraftsbypatricia@gmail.com
 
Posts: 2501 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 31 May 2004Reply With Quote
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Mike,
ch4d will custom turn some bullets. Call me later today.
jeffe


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 36104 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Mike, If Barnes will not make them for you then i would see of Northfork would make some 250gr flat point solids, or cup point solids. Then I would drill out a deeper hollow point into the bullet.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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I found some on Gunbroker...hooray...

thanks guys


Mike



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 100 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 9451 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Barnes doesn't makem any more...can't hunt with lead in my area of CA...Don't want to scrap the family heirloom model 71

What can be done?
I wonder what will happen when someone finds a condor that died of copper poisoning?
 
Posts: 1116 | Registered: 27 April 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Barnes doesn't makem any more...can't hunt with lead in my area of CA...Don't want to scrap the family heirloom model 71

What can be done?
I wonder if Magtech will make copper rifle bullets?They make a wide variety of handgun copper bullets!
 
Posts: 1116 | Registered: 27 April 2006Reply With Quote
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is certainly appropriate to the bullet making thread, but its applicable mostly to Winchester and Browning Model 71 shooters, and this surely is the right place to reach many of those folks.

Like most model 71 "348" shooters, I would like to shoot a wider variety of bullets, but the bullets available for relaoding are very limited. They are limited in weight, in style, and brand.

Wouldn't you like to have a very wide choice of bullets, from 150 grain up to 250 and maybe even some above and below those weights. And how about boat tails and spire points.

Before I get into this, let me assure you that I understand the requirement to use bullets that will not cause a primer detonation in the model 71 magazine during recoil in these guns. I have not achieved this proposed swaging yet, and before moving forward want to get some thoughts from other enthusiasts.

Here goes:
I have done lots of looking and see that there are many bullet designs that are available for 35 caliber guns. Problem is that the 35 cal. bullets are .358 diameter and as we all know the "71" requires .348 diameter bullets.

That's only ten thou. oversize.
Why can't those .358s be swaged down to .348. That's only 2.9% oversized .

Seems like anyone with the right swaging tool, the right lubricant and a press (Like Rock Chucker) should be able to squeeze a 35 cal. through a .348 die and get a perfect .348 bullet as a result.

Now that the 35 cal. LeveRevolution bullets are available for relaoding, they would be a perfect candidate, but there are lots of others too.

Here are the design challenges. Has anyone already overcome these?:

a] Acquire a carbide swaging tool that has a forcing cone and bore that does a final sizing to .348.
b] A bullet guide to hold the 35 cal. bullet as it is forced through the die. It would ride on the press ram. This could be one that sits in the spot where a case holder normally resides. The guide could be designed to hold a flat base or boat tail base. Don't know which would work best. I would recommend that it handle either the flat base or boat tail bullets, with the capability of pushing the bullets all the way through the sizer.

As all are probably aware we reloaders know that a case resizing die actually squeezes the brass to a smaller diameter than what is intended as the finished resized case size. This is due to the elasticity of the brass (It is notably more pronounced since the brass case is hollow and when pressured by the resizing die is free to compress into the air space).

On a true technical note, lead is actually also elastic but the modulus of elasticity is smaller than that of the gilding metal. The minute amount of elasticity difference is so small that even with a non-bonded core bullet, there would be no perceptible separation.

However many of today's bullets have the lead bonded to the gilding metal. That would preclude separation during sizing.

For solid Barnes type bullets, there would be no elasticity differential, therefore these would be candidates that would not raise a core separation concern.

I expect that a bullet resizer would need to have its diameter undersized to compensate for the "elastic rebound".

How about some of the "real experts" jumping in on this discussion and giving an indication whether this idea has some paratical posibilities or otherwise. If not practical, I think folks would like to know lots of particulars.

Bob N.
From Redstone Arsenal in Alabama


Bob Nisbet
DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover
Temporarily Displaced Texan
If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat.
 
Posts: 799 | Location: Texas and Alabama | Registered: 07 January 2009Reply With Quote
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Well Bob,

I’m no expert, but I’ll try to address your questions as best I can, so here goes.

Ahh, never mind. I had it all long winded and worked out, but decided to check the Corbin web site. And realized there’s no use in reinventing the wheel. Use this link (http://corbins.com/drawdies.htm#brd) to have your questions answered. $180 - $250 should get you fixed up.

In a nutshell, drawing down .005” may work most of the time, while drawing down .010” almost never does. The ogive tends to fade into the sunset as the diameter is reduced, for one thing. Cores get loose for another. It’s best if you read it for yourself.

Besides, I've never done it. I've just developed some ideas that it wouldn't work well due to some of the problems I've encountered with the bullets I've made, and the link will bear witness.

Hope this helps.

David


DRSS member

Do what you can with what you've got where you are. TR
 
Posts: 82 | Location: Cody, Wyoming | Registered: 17 March 2006Reply With Quote
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I suggest you try Lehigh Bullets. They did a run of custom 36 grain .204" solid copper hollow points for me. They had them done 4 weeks after I gave him the go ahead and priced very competitively compared to of the shelf Barnes TSX of similar size, especially considering he designed the bullet as well.


--
“Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” - Jeff Cooper
 
Posts: 19 | Location: Prescott, AZ, USA | Registered: 21 March 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Al:
Mike, you might want to ask the new Northfork guy, see if he'll make a run of them without the lead core. Not sure what the weight or performance would be thou.


That was my thought. I think that a .348 cup point would be an devastating bullet.
 
Posts: 1097 | Location: Golden, CO | Registered: 05 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Mike
I have some Barnes X bullets. I will dig them out and get back to you.Also I am going to be in your area next week for mothers day in Vacaville I have four 50 round boxes of 200 gr Batnes X. They are repackaged after I moly coated them. I am leaving tomorrow for Vacaville.
I will take them with me incase we can meet. $30.00 per box.
Lyle


"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. I would remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
Barry M Goldwater.
 
Posts: 968 | Location: YUMA, ARIZONA | Registered: 12 August 2003Reply With Quote
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PM sent


"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. I would remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
Barry M Goldwater.
 
Posts: 968 | Location: YUMA, ARIZONA | Registered: 12 August 2003Reply With Quote
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I've read that casting silver bullets in lead molds is a no-no due to differing material shrinkage or some similar issue. There was a semi-serious article on the subject floating around somewhere that explained the differences in casting silver and lead in some detail. Having done neither myself, I can't offer any personal experience on the subject.


analog_peninsula
-----------------------

It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence.
 
Posts: 1546 | Location: Dallas, Tx | Registered: 02 June 2006Reply With Quote
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Well, I called Barnes to ask if they would consider a run of solid 348 bullets. They said to justify the setup, they would need a run size of 100 thousand pieces. A quick calculation at aproximately $50 per box of 50, and "choke-cough", it came to only $100,000.


Bob Nisbet
DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover
Temporarily Displaced Texan
If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat.
 
Posts: 799 | Location: Texas and Alabama | Registered: 07 January 2009Reply With Quote
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I would bet that Hornady would do a shorter run at a better price per bullet. Won't hurt to call and ask.
 
Posts: 4115 | Location: Pa. | Registered: 21 April 2006Reply With Quote
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If you have one for dimension reference, I would hazard a guess Macifej would make you a run of a couple hundred at a favorable price.

Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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I was offered and bought a few of the Barnes X 200 grain all copper bullets. What I have will be used for all my Model 71 (.348) hunting, so they will probably only last a couple of hunting sasons.
I would love to find someone else that would part with some of the Barnes X all copper bullets.
Bob Nisbet
Supporting Army Aviation
Redstone Arsenal
Robert.Nisbet1@US.Army.MiL


Bob Nisbet
DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover
Temporarily Displaced Texan
If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat.
 
Posts: 799 | Location: Texas and Alabama | Registered: 07 January 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of FOOBAR
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ANY CNC equipped machine shop can make you all the bullets you want...unless doing so is covered by some government permit process...

Can someone answer that question for certain?

I'm guessing there are a bunch of home machinists or students that would love to do the work for the experience...goto Practical Machinist and ask.

There is a shop in my area that charges $75/hr to do the code and $75/hr machine time plus material cost. He said he pretty much always has a loose hour. An hours worth of grinding will certainly produce all the bullets you could possibly want I would think for basically $150 bucks and probably much less than a buck apiece.

Seems like you solved your dilemma tho'

Luck
 
Posts: 1338 | Registered: 19 January 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Can someone answer that question for certain?


Yes. Need an FFL 6 or you're in violation of Federal Law and thus local and state law.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of FOOBAR
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Thanks...Is the FFL 6 required for home made bullets like cast lead or for sales to public only?

I will check this out.
 
Posts: 1338 | Registered: 19 January 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by FOOBAR:
Thanks...Is the FFL 6 required for home made bullets like cast lead or for sales to public only?

I will check this out.


Required if you are in the business of making them. Making them for your own consumption isn't a business.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of FOOBAR
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Thanks again...I crawled all over the ATF site trying to find the Type 06 definitive section without much success.

Crawled the web also...found a lot of mis information. Seems like lots of folks have the impression it is OK to make "bullets/projectiles/inert objects" and sell them without any kind of FFL or license.

What's the story with those that make and sell cast lead bullets at home?

They got their butts in a sling?

Luck
 
Posts: 1338 | Registered: 19 January 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
They got their butts in a sling?


Small fish but yes. Here in Kaliforniastan I'd be more concerned about the local enviro-revenue agents re: lead casting.

The requirements are very simple. If you manufacture ANY ammunition components or assemblies there-of for sale then you are in business and subject to ATF regulations. If you wanna donate then to your local PETA office ATF isn't interested.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of FOOBAR
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"How goes Kaliforniastan so goes the Nation" to paraphrase a very old saying.

Components is components and that is that for sure.

Thanks again.
 
Posts: 1338 | Registered: 19 January 2006Reply With Quote
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Front page of paper here a couple days ago says the state wants to ban copper now that they have banned lead.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of jeffeosso
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quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
Front page of paper here a couple days ago says the state wants to ban copper now that they have banned lead.


okay -- that's stunning


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 36104 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
Front page of paper here a couple days ago says the state wants to ban copper now that they have banned lead.


okay -- that's stunning


What was it Mel Gibson's character said in that movie about being paranoid ...??

popcorn
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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I recently got some North Fork 348 bullets.
Design is interesting.
They are 230 grains, made from pure copper with driving bands and the front has been bored out and filled with bonded lead that goes back not quite half way to the base (meaning it is solid copper from bottom of bore hole that holds the lead all the way to the rear.
Another great aspect is that it is designed with an excellent long ogive that terminates with a flat point just wide enough to not present any danger of detonating the primer. I am convinced that the long ogive will substantially improve long range velocity retention, something that folks have been seeking for many, many years.


Bob Nisbet
DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover
Temporarily Displaced Texan
If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat.
 
Posts: 799 | Location: Texas and Alabama | Registered: 07 January 2009Reply With Quote
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