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HUGE AZ Governor's Tag Elk
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I got some interesting information this past weekend while on a crane hunt. One of the hunters is married to an AZ game warden. Apparently, JJ fired 16 shots, of which about 5 hit the bull (can't recall how many she said). One of the guides was left completely disgusted by this. Apparently A3 Outfitters blocked roads, harassed others, etc.

I am not sure what is confidential and what isn't during my discussion so I will just leave it at that, but I don't think the book is closed on the guides involved in this hunt.

Perhaps we should make Governor's tags more of a lottery...


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Posts: 7351 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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Well...not much of a shock to me if this proves to be the case. It is interesting to see how much hunters views of "hunting" have changed over the years and what is perceived as acceptable. Personally there is much occurring these days that just makes me shake my head, as in the end, it all comes back to "look at me" and the pervasive nature of our modern society that is all about stroking ones person ego and obtaining something no matter how it is obtained.


______________________________________________

The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift.



 
Posts: 1489 | Location: Northwestern BC | Registered: 21 July 2006Reply With Quote
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A good film editor can make a bad hunt look good.

When money/fame is involved those who pursue it can do some very strange to achieve it.
 
Posts: 16523 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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I wasn’t impressed by any of it
 
Posts: 2484 | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Perhaps we should make Governor's tags more of a lottery...


That's a nice thought, maybe the government will repeal income taxes too.... As if "we" have any choice. They love that tag income and they don't care who pays it - they only care about how much. The wardens may not like the behavior, but those huge funds talk louder than they do.


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Posts: 2367 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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Actually, in AZ, we have both auction and lottery governor's permits. The latter is called the AZ Big Game Super Raffle. Those who win the lottery permits get to hunt under the same rules as the auction permit holders.

The 2020 lottery winners:

Antelope – Bradley Hoffman, Lake Elsinore, CA
Black Bear – Nathan Rodriguez, Haughton, LA
Buffalo – Timothy Anderson, Tucson, AZ
Coues Whitetail – Darren Choate, Mesa, AZ
Desert Bighorn Sheep – Joshua Ankert, Mesa, AZ
Elk – Paul Herrick, Green Valley AZ
Javelina – Gerald Ramaklus, Phoenix, AZ
Mountain Lion – Matt Parmeter, Las Cruces NM
Mule Deer – Terry Schupp, Tempe, AZ
Turkey – Richard Messinger, Yuma AZ
Alaska Dream Hunt – Daniel Potter, Buena Vista CO
New Mexico Elk Hunt – Alan Burch, Shreveport, LA
Swarovski Optic Package – Steve Lewellen, Queen Creek, AZ


Tony Mandile

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Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Tony,
I have always been skeptical on raffles, for not other reason than I doubt I would ever win. I get it that you cannot win if you do not enter.

Question to you and others -

1. Putting in for tags via the various state game departments and playing the preference point game is a bit of a raffle. Question - is it even remotely practical do this??? I have dropped $5000 or more on putting in for sheep tags over the years and collecting pref points, but it seems I will never catch up to actually draw.

2. The raffles for governors tags is hard. The auctions for these tags is expensive, so, why not just forget pref points or raffle tickets and bite the bullet and go the private land owner route or buy one at an auctions at DSC or Wild Sheep?

Just thinking how a 66 year old will get tags.
 
Posts: 9151 | Location: Back in the Republic of Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:

Question to you and others -

1. Putting in for tags via the various state game departments and playing the preference point game is a bit of a raffle. Question - is it even remotely practical do this??? I have dropped $5000 or more on putting in for sheep tags over the years and collecting pref points, but it seems I will never catch up to actually draw.

2. The raffles for governors tags is hard. The auctions for these tags is expensive, so, why not just forget pref points or raffle tickets and bite the bullet and go the private land owner route or buy one at an auctions at DSC or Wild Sheep?

Just thinking how a 66 year old will get tags.


REF: #1 --Yup. In AZ, our draw system is indeed a lottery of sorts, as are most of the states in the West. BUT.. with our bonus point system, anyone has a chance to get drawn even if they have only one BP since only 20% of the permits go into the Top BP pool. Of course, if you're a NR applying for the most premier hunts, the odds get worse due to the 10% NR cap. So before anyone applies, they would do well to study data AGFD compiles that shows all the draws, points needed, etc. And then it's still a crap shoot, of course. Roll Eyes

I had 23 points when I finally drew a desert sheep permit when I was 71 yrs old. and in pretty piss-poor physical condition.And right now I'm sitting on 20 BPs for elk because I've been applying for a rut rifle hunt. But now I'm done hunting for good, so I'll never use them. Mad

Ref. #2 Right on both. But at least some lucky dude gets to win the raffle, while only the richer ones get to play the auction game for the most sought after species here -- i.e. mule deer, elk, pronghorn and sheep. The price for those tags are quite high regadless of where they're auctioned.

I'm not sure I've helped you or not, but don't give up quite yet. Even at 66, you have a few good hunts left if you're in decent shape.


Tony Mandile

Get "How To Hunt Coues Deer" at
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Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Posts: 9151 | Location: Back in the Republic of Texas... time to secede!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
Tony,
I have always been skeptical on raffles, for not other reason than I doubt I would ever win. I get it that you cannot win if you do not enter.

Question to you and others -

1. Putting in for tags via the various state game departments and playing the preference point game is a bit of a raffle. Question - is it even remotely practical do this??? I have dropped $5000 or more on putting in for sheep tags over the years and collecting pref points, but it seems I will never catch up to actually draw.

2. The raffles for governors tags is hard. The auctions for these tags is expensive, so, why not just forget pref points or raffle tickets and bite the bullet and go the private land owner route or buy one at an auctions at DSC or Wild Sheep?

Just thinking how a 66 year old will get tags.


Ross:

It’s a very good question and on that I’ve thought about a lot lately. As you are 66, I would buy the tags outright. It takes too many points to draw quality tags.

With a that said, you could look at Idaho or New Mexico that does not have a bonus or preference point system. You do have to buy a license however, but I still think it’s worth the cost.

The points game has created a mess. Of course, in the beginning, the points system worked okay. However, now that is just not the case. We’d be better to go back to the days of old, of the random draw.

I’m turning 50 next year and I have points built up in a few states. Once I use them, I may be done with points game.
 
Posts: 1891 | Location: Utah | Registered: 23 February 2011Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason P:
quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
Tony,
I have always been skeptical on raffles, for not other reason than I doubt I would ever win. I get it that you cannot win if you do not enter.

Question to you and others -

1. Putting in for tags via the various state game departments and playing the preference point game is a bit of a raffle. Question - is it even remotely practical do this??? I have dropped $5000 or more on putting in for sheep tags over the years and collecting pref points, but it seems I will never catch up to actually draw.

2. The raffles for governors tags is hard. The auctions for these tags is expensive, so, why not just forget pref points or raffle tickets and bite the bullet and go the private land owner route or buy one at an auctions at DSC or Wild Sheep?

Just thinking how a 66 year old will get tags.


Ross:

It’s a very good question and on that I’ve thought about a lot lately. As you are 66, I would buy the tags outright. It takes too many points to draw quality tags.

With a that said, you could look at Idaho or New Mexico that does not have a bonus or preference point system. You do have to buy a license however, but I still think it’s worth the cost.

The points game has created a mess. Of course, in the beginning, the points system worked okay. However, now that is just not the case. We’d be better to go back to the days of old, of the random draw.

I’m turning 50 next year and I have points built up in a few states. Once I use them, I may be done with points game.


I have to agree with Jason on this. If just starting to play the points game and in mid-60’s, you’re unlikely to draw many quality tags in the next 5-8 years. However, you can buy landowner tags for some very high quality deer and elk hunts in Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Colorado. Wyoming has some good hunts that only take a few points to draw. New Mexico & Idaho don’t have point systems, but tough draw odds for quality hunts.

However, if you’ve been playing the points game for a long time, don’t give up now. My son, who just turned 33, and I have drawn some fantastic tags across the west over the last 15 years. By the time he was 27, he’d drawn 2 great elk tags for rut elk hunts in AZ and a Kaibab deer tag, killing great animals on each hunt. We’ve got tons of points in most western states for most species and we will draw some great tags over the next ten years, but it’s taken over 25 years of diligently applying for both of us across the west. I’ve spent a small fortune on points. But, next year he should draw the best moose tag in Wyoming and...

I drew a Desert Sheep tag in CA and will be hunting rams in just a few more days!

The points game takes dedication, but can pay off if you stick with it.
 
Posts: 3168 | Location: California | Registered: 01 January 2009Reply With Quote
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These latest two posts reflect my own experience.

Fifteen years ago it was possible to draw good tags with few points (I drew a WY Wind rivers moose tag with 5 points in 2002).

Now, however, it often takes 20-25 points for quality hunts but if you got in on the ground level those points are starting to pay out now. My son and I have drawn four quality elk hunts and a UT bison hunt in the past 3 years and are coming due for 4-5 more in the next 6-7 years.

Once they're cashed out though, there's no point in starting again at 55 so it'll be landowner tags going forward.

I sit on one of the Utah DWR's Regional Advisory Councils (how we make wildlife law in Utah) and the subject of point creep comes up annually. There are two factions: people with points and people without. So far the people with points have won out politically and kept the current system locked in place.


-UtahLefty
 
Posts: 89 | Location: Northern Utah | Registered: 25 November 2006Reply With Quote
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Every state's system is a bit different, so your mileage will vary.

I'm not as familiar with the other western states as I am with AZ. At least here, everyone has a shot at drawing a hard-to-get permit. Granted, the odds for a NR aren't as good, but in many cases they still have a shot.

Here's an exanple of why:

Lets say a hunt has 100 permits available. In AZ, there are NO DESIGNATED NR permits; they are all the same, but only UP TO 10% of them can go to NRs. So that is 10 permits. Now, with our Bonus Point system (not preference pts.), 20% of the permits are doled out to those who have the MOST points. So 20 permits are given in this round, which leaves 80 for the OPEN lottery in which everyone has a chance, even if they have only one point. All one needs to hope is that the computer assigns that point a low random number, and the more points you have the more numbers are involved with only the lowest one being used. So then the computer hands out the permits to the 80 lowest numbers, regardless of residence.

As for the NR's chances in the open draw, it depends on how many NRs had enough BPs to be included in the 20% bonus pass. Let's say five NRs qualified, i.e. 5% of the 10% total allowed. That leaves five permits available to NR in the open draw, but they will only be meted out if a NR's number is low enough to get in on the 80 available permis. Lastly, if none or fewer than five NRs have a low number, that's how many additional NR permits are given in the open draw. That's why the rule reads "UP TO 10%."

There are also special rules for sheep because some units have so few permits, and I know at least TWO residents who have drawn permits with only a couple points.

Any Questions??? Smiler

PS: I'm sitting on 20 elk and 17 pronghorn points but will no longer hunt. So now I have to decide whether I still want to continue buying BPs or just quit altogether, thus losing the loyalty point for each.


Tony Mandile

Get "How To Hunt Coues Deer" at
www.immediateweb.com/TonyMandile
 
Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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My experience with big game raffles is very atypical. In 1985, I moved to Michigan. A coworker asked me if I had applied for an Elk Tag. I didn’t know Michigan even had a huntable herd. For $5 I applied for one of the 120 tags, along with 52,000 other people. I got drawn and had to pay an additional $100 fee. So for $105, I had a successful elk hunt. Of the 120 hunters, 119 were successful.


Jesus saves, but Moses invests
 
Posts: 1132 | Location: Chicago, IL | Registered: 02 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Here is a link to a recent interview with Jimmy Liautaud. No hunting questions but a pretty good interview about the history of his business.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2yvO866TjA
 
Posts: 693 | Location: California | Registered: 26 May 2006Reply With Quote
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Does anyone know how far he was shooting at the elk? Seems like a good bit of time from report to impact. I guess the chambering would effect that also... seems like days for a 45/70 to hit a deer with 405 green box from the time the trigger is pulled. But, my guess is he is shooting a long distance with some kind of faster round?
 
Posts: 5301 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 02 April 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Does anyone know how far he was shooting at the elk? Seems like a good bit of time from report to impact.


Supposedly, it was about 950 yards.


Tony Mandile

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Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Im with Ross
For price of one elk tag you can hunt several animals on one hunt ( various an5elope and pigs ) in Africa or cape buff

In states, I apply for in state only for moose sheep and goat, hunt also in Idaho because you just buy tag instead applying and it’s close to home besides usually nobody around in the woods which I prefer

I also believe that any special tags or drawing should be only available to hunters over 18 of age
Kids can cut their teeth on deer and elk over the counter as they have not earned their right or learned the ropes in serious hunting


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...
 
Posts: 11891 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Yep. Africa for me. Much more bang for the buck!
 
Posts: 38629 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
quote:
Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
Does anyone know how far he was shooting at the elk? Seems like a good bit of time from report to impact.


Supposedly, it was about 950 yards.


Wow! thanks for the reply.
 
Posts: 5301 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 02 April 2003Reply With Quote
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As a hunter I abhor that kinda distance shooting on game animal


" Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins.
When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar.
Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan
PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move...
 
Posts: 11891 | Location: In mountains behind my house hunting or drinking beer in Blacksmith Brewery in Stevensville MT | Registered: 27 December 2012Reply With Quote
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Can’t you draw and gift it to a relative? Shame to let them go!
quote:
Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
Every state's system is a bit different, so your mileage will vary.

I'm not as familiar with the other western states as I am with AZ. At least here, everyone has a shot at drawing a hard-to-get permit. Granted, the odds for a NR aren't as good, but in many cases they still have a shot.

Here's an exanple of why:

Lets say a hunt has 100 permits available. In AZ, there are NO DESIGNATED NR permits; they are all the same, but only UP TO 10% of them can go to NRs. So that is 10 permits. Now, with our Bonus Point system (not preference pts.), 20% of the permits are doled out to those who have the MOST points. So 20 permits are given in this round, which leaves 80 for the OPEN lottery in which everyone has a chance, even if they have only one point. All one needs to hope is that the computer assigns that point a low random number, and the more points you have the more numbers are involved with only the lowest one being used. So then the computer hands out the permits to the 80 lowest numbers, regardless of residence.

As for the NR's chances in the open draw, it depends on how many NRs had enough BPs to be included in the 20% bonus pass. Let's say five NRs qualified, i.e. 5% of the 10% total allowed. That leaves five permits available to NR in the open draw, but they will only be meted out if a NR's number is low enough to get in on the 80 available permis. Lastly, if none or fewer than five NRs have a low number, that's how many additional NR permits are given in the open draw. That's why the rule reads "UP TO 10%."

There are also special rules for sheep because some units have so few permits, and I know at least TWO residents who have drawn permits with only a couple points.

Any Questions??? Smiler

PS: I'm sitting on 20 elk and 17 pronghorn points but will no longer hunt. So now I have to decide whether I still want to continue buying BPs or just quit altogether, thus losing the loyalty point for each.
 
Posts: 2484 | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Can’t you draw and gift it to a relative? Shame to let them go!


Only to a minor child or grandchild. I don't have any kids under 50, and my 24 yr. old granddaughter is also too old.

We also have a deal known as Point Guard for an extra $5 fee. I can turn in the tag to AGF Dept. or give it to a recognized charity organization. If I use the PG option, I get my points back but am still out the cost of the permit. I can then draw again but can no longer get points back.

And lastly...I've already had several offers from others to use my points to increase their odds in the lottery by applying together. IOW, if someone has 10 BPs for elk and I have 20, we would wind up with an average of 15 for the draw. So, depending on the unit, it's possible 10 points wouldn't get the guy in the bonus pass but 15 would guarantee him a permit. For me to do that, though, would require a set fee and all the related costs paid for up front. But I haven't decided to go that route yet.


Tony Mandile

Get "How To Hunt Coues Deer" at
www.immediateweb.com/TonyMandile
 
Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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FYI I keep hearing of questionable tactics from A3. Seems blocking off roads scaring game off from non clients and intimidation pretty common. Heard this from multiple hunters. Most recently and antelope hunter in AZ.

Now I read AZGFD wants to regulate game cameras use. Interesting since above Hunt revolves around the use of game cameras to locate and track trophies
 
Posts: 2484 | Registered: 31 December 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by gunslinger55:
FYI I keep hearing of questionable tactics from A3. Seems blocking off roads scaring game off from non clients and intimidation pretty common. Heard this from multiple hunters. Most recently and antelope hunter in AZ.

Now I read AZGFD wants to regulate game cameras use. Interesting since above Hunt revolves around the use of game cameras to locate and track trophies


Mostly pretty much true on all counts.


Tony Mandile

Get "How To Hunt Coues Deer" at
www.immediateweb.com/TonyMandile
 
Posts: 3146 | Location: Glendale, AZ | Registered: 28 July 2003Reply With Quote
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