www.iowaagriculture.gov
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These people and the false hunters who fund them do not deserve our support. Especially if you are interested in your grandkids being able to hunt, or even wanting to.

I guess I'm a heretic, I do not now nor will I ever blindly support all legal hunting.

It sure makes a person wonder!

CWD has always been with us.It appeared in Wisconsin in areas where no deer farms are located.The DNR uses deer farms as a copout to explain something they have no answer for.I do not own a deer farm or know anyone who does.JMHO ,OB

Well I guess I could be wrong. What I read is that CWD is similar to other prion diseases, but I have not read anything that said it has always been with us. In fact it was first found in captive wildlife operations. Also the land this farm was on will carry this prion forward since the dang thing is almost impossible to kill. If the land goes back to say a traditional farm, the probabilities are almost to the point of certainty that wild deer will pick it up. Everything I read makes it clear that game farms at an absolute minimum, create an opportunity to accelerate the spread of this "hunt" ending disease. In the west it is commonly said that wolves will be used to cut back on or end a lot of hunting. What do you think the antis can do with CWD?
There are many scientific articles if you search on the net, but here is one page aimed at the regular hunter, www.cwd-info.org

I think if you will take time to do some checking, you will find out that the first outbreak of CWD occurred in Colorado, among Mule Deer at the Federal Research facility near Fort Collins.

They had began having a die off among the animals that were being kept at the facility, but before they could get a handle on what was causing the die off, their funding was cut.

In the infinite wisdom of the U.S. government, they merely cut the fences and let ALL of the animals loose.

CH, Yes the website states that clearly and is why I stated it was first found in captive wildlife. A gov run research game farm studying mule deer in the 60s I believe. We learned nothing, allowed deer farming and others to start and grow. There is no 100% proof it started there, came from a mutated domestic sheep disease, or what. The problem with game farms and CWD is evident in the Iowa case. You have 100s of deer infected and confined to a fake wild environment (more than natural numbers on smaller than natural amounts of land, feed in unnatural ways). The science is solid that the land is now hot with CWD. This CWD causative agent is basically not killable (if that's a proper word). Any deer crossing this land once the fences come down in 1 year or 1 decade, will have a significant, increased chance, of getting and spreading CWD. This is ignoring any potential through the fence transmission that may have occurred.

Read the research articles reference on the site and I think you will see what I see, that this is how it spread from the captive mule deer in Colorado into the wild population with the research farm as ground zero.

Iowa will now get to experience this same catastrophe as CWD will be spread out into wild populations from this game farm that had 100s of infected farm deer. At this point it's inevitable since I don't see how you can keep all wild deer from ever entering the land in question for at least decades if not forever. That is the reason I "damn" these farms. Not because they are 100% responsible for CWD existing, but because they accelerate the spread considerably compared to how it would spread in a purely wild population. I am also concerned how this could be an excellent excuse to regulate the hunting of at least deer to the point that most hunters will quit all on their own.

We didn't learn anything?

We learned that our government will do damn well what it pleases.

Those animals should have been destroyed, not released.

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I am also concerned how this could be an excellent excuse to regulate the hunting of at least deer to the point that most hunters will quit all on their own.

Your concern is a little late, many hunters have quit hunting because of regulations enacted by various game depts., because of the demand that trophy deer taken off of free range properties has evolved into. It was created, because hunters not willing to pay the prices asked for captive reared trophy bucks.

Those folks petitioned their game depts. to establish regulations with the goal of producing free range deer that will compete with pen raised deer.

I don't like what has happened to deer hunting in general in this country, but I really do not see any practical way to turn the clock back 30 years.

Thing about CWD is it came from domestic cattle and sheep
It is also know in humans
Some theory is it came from when cattle and sheep feed was laced with rendered domestic meat
From there it spread on
One way or the other blaming just deer farms is not fair.
Cattle and sheep operations as at fault as well if you wanna look at it this way.
Biggest thing and biggest fault lays with feed industry but of course no one was aware of it until Europe blowout and consequent testings
We have lived with this disease in our midst since the beginnings of time.
Just look how prevalent it is and was in cannibalistic societies where eating brains was a must

Boarkiller, I have to disagree with you.

If CWD had been in livestock it would have affected the deer herd in America long before it did.

CWD was a new entity on the scene, that is why the impact was so pronounced.

There is Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD) that has been known of since the early 1900's that can and does periodically kill off a lot of deer, but CWD is more recent in origin.

Isn't it only supposed to affect you if you invest brain and spinal fluid?
Or is the latest new strain?

It's always been know so I assume it's been around

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
We didn't learn anything?

We learned that our government will do damn well what it pleases.

You mean like allowing commercial airline flights from west Africa into the US during an Ebola epidemic?

I agree with you....aren't these people making decisions/policy supposed to be at least as smart as us?

They recommend that spinal cord/brain and what I call "guts", heart/liver/kidneys/pancreas/brains, not be eaten or handled.

In parts of Texas there is a problem with Anthrax. It is in the soil and every so often a hunter or two dies from handling deer that were infected with it.

I am still stupid in that I don't wear rubber gloves when field dressing or butchering game, including feral hogs, and those things have a few diseases that are transmittable to humans thru their blood.

CWD has been around forever!!!

It was first discovered here in Colorado in the 60's, just as its been elsewhere for a LONG TIME too.

15 years or so ago, the DOW here got on the CWD kick again, and started wiping out deer herds left and right. The public outcry finally put a stop to it when time after time, never did any one location ever have more than 1.8% of the population test positive.

I've seen deer with it, but its rare - and its been around a long time. If it was that bad, the game would have been gone long ago - IMO.

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
CWD has been around forever!!!

That is not what I read. All the scientific papers I found agree that it is a possibility since nothing has been proven yet. Forever is a long time, so please put up the link to clear this up..PLEASE!!

If it was "First" discovered in the 60's, then it has not been around forever.

Me thinks the truth lies somewhere in the middle as is the case with nearly all issues.

Game depts./state governments over react, many hunters go into denial mode.

Which ever side a person falls on really does not matter, CWD is an issue that isn't going to go away.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
If it was "First" discovered in the 60's, then it has not been around forever.

Just because it was first discovered in the 60's doesn't mean it didn't exist before that. It had to come from somewhere. Are you suggesting that the disease suddenly mutated out of thin air on some magical date in the 60's? Sorry, but nature doesn't work that way. The Mountain Gorilla wasn't "discovered" by science until 1902 but it would be foolish to say they didn't exist before that. The same concept applies to CWD. It existed but science just didn't know about it.

It has always existed but it wasn't until mule deer were held in large numbers in confined spaces that it became a problem. Before that mule deer, which don't normally herd up in large numbers, were spread out and if an animal became infected it didn't have much impact on the others. Put them in an enclosure and any disease will spread easier. As usual, nature had a system that worked well and it was man that managed to screw it up. Deer were not intended to be fenced in and it doesn't matter if it was a research facility or a trophy deer breeding farm. Enclosing them in an unnatural state is what lead to the increased spread of a disease the deer had been coping with just fine when they were left in their natural state.

Sorry Tommy, but evidently it did evolve out of thin air.

They started having animals die at the research facility and before they could get a handle on what was happening, what was causing the deaths, how to identify the conditions that were contributing to the spread from animal to animal, really get any useful information about the disease, its potential effects on the wild/free ranging population, or methods for controlling/combatting the disease, they simply turned their animals loose instead of destroying them.

As for your comments about mule deer not herding up in large numbers you really might want to read up a little more on mule deer biology.

Mule deer are more like elk than white tails in their breeding biology in that mule deer gather in groups with a dominant buck defending it like a harem, instead of the one buck-one doe breeding biology of white tails.

Also you might want to check out the mass mule deer migration that takes place annually in Wyoming.

Tommy, thats a nice story but it is pure fantasy.

Crazyhorse is right, it DID just evolve out of thin air, or, really, infected dirt.....

1965 grad students at Colorado Division of Wildlifes Foothills Wildlife Research Station at Fort Collins Co capture pregnant mule deer does and pen them in pens that had been just before used to study Scrappie infected sheep. Scrappie is the sheep version of CWD and is an disease recognized for decades.

After the fawns were born the adult mule deer does were released into the surrounding area. Some of the deer over the next couple of years were sent to various other states research stations, zoos, and private enclosures. No records or tracking was kept on these deer movements.

Deer in the research pens were showing signs of an unknown illness. The illness was first recognized as such in 1967. In 1978 the disease was classified as a TSI by Dr Beth Williams. Dr Williams was one of the grad students during the original research in the early/mid 60's. She has been quoted as saying that she feared that we(the researchers) have created a new disease. In their defense it was believed at the time that TSIs were species specific and could not/would not/ cross the species barrier. We know this to be untrue as shown in Mad Cow disease and humans.

In 1985 Colorado Div of Wildlife attempted to eradicate CWD from it's research pens by treating the soil with chlorine and removing the top layer of soil. Introducing healthy deer into the pens resulted in the deer becoming sick with CWD...picked up from the contaminated soil.

If one checks a map of CWD outbreaks it is easy to see that Ft Collins sits at the epicenter of the disease. Remember the locally released mule deer does???

Men and trucks facilitated the spread of CWD beyond the Co/Wy/Ne area. CWD has jumped the species barrier to Elk, moose, whitetail deer in the wild and a number of different animals in labs, inc one species of monkey.

CWD has not been around for ever, at least not before the early 60's....

Prions don't die. They can't be cooked dead in an autoclave and they live forever. They are proteins.

I personally believe from speaking to quite a number of MDs that deal with prions that this specific disease has been around thousands of years.

Game ranching has gotten a bad rap since the beginning on this and it needs to stop.

2 whitetail from two different game farms in Wisconsin test positive for CWD. One in Richland co. One in Marathon co. Must be a fluke, no need to give them a bad name. Just a coincidence. Move along people.

Good day for trolls. Guess I was dumb enough to read this post.

if "specific disease" means CWD in deer, then you are wrong. It was "invented" at Ft Collins Co in the mid 60's.

States, zoos, biologists were initially responsible for the spreading of CWD across the west. game farmers and other private landowners have been responsible for the majority of CWD movement across the country since then.

troll calling someone else a troll is funny.....

I am not saying that Game Farms do not contribute to the problem, nor an I saying that white tail deer or for that matter elk should be turned into livestock.

Nor do I feel that all deer in any area where CWD shows up should be eradicated, UNLESS it is a High Fenced game ranch.

I believe it was Wisconsin DNR that tried or did wipe out all of the deer in a several county area because of a case of CWD.

However as has been pointed out, CWD started at a Government Research facility, it first infected a captive group of Mule Deer, and the agency that was in charge when the disease became active did not take the proper action to prevent the spread of the disease.

Not to unlike what is happening with Ebola.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I am not saying that Game Farms do not contribute to the problem, nor an I saying that white tail deer or for that matter elk should be turned into livestock.

Nor do I feel that all deer in any area where CWD shows up should be eradicated, UNLESS it is a High Fenced game ranch.

I believe it was Wisconsin DNR that tried or did wipe out all of the deer in a several county area because of a case of CWD.

However as has been pointed out, CWD started at a Government Research facility, it first infected a captive group of Mule Deer, and the agency that was in charge when the disease became active did not take the proper action to prevent the spread of the disease.

Not to unlike what is happening with Ebola.

They tried to wipe out the herd in about 10 Counties.Unlimited hunting,unlimited amounts of deer and hunting by any method.It did not work. a friend who is a game Biologist believes that CWD is nothing new.In the past we did not have the size of deer herds we do now.In the past if a few deer got it they did not pass it on because of little contact with other deer.Now with mega herds of deer there is plenty contact with other deer and it spreads.Believing it came out of the thin air is plain ignorant on how disease can lay dormant for hundreds or thousands of years before going active.Anyone think Ebola just appeared out of thin air???

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In the past we did not have the size of deer herds we do now.

That is an aspect that does have merit in my opinion.

But, from conversations with people that were there and could actually remember, if CWD had been present in the ecosystem for any length of time, its effects would have been noticed decades ago.

Colorado had a tremendous mule deer herd at one time. To control it highly liberal limits were in effect and elk were not all that prevalent over a large portion of the state. As mule deer numbers began to decline somewhat due to hunting, legal and otherwise, and elk numbers began to increase, mule deer numbers began to stabilize at a more realistic level.

It has been the explosion in the white tail population nationwide that has helped the spread of CWD, after those deer were released from the research facility.

Do game farms play a role in keeping CWD spreading, I believe they do.

I also believe that the advent of more selective hunting methods and the desire to have large populations of white tails in many areas has also contributed to the spread of the disease.

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Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Game ranching has gotten a bad rap since the beginning on this and it needs to stop.

I disagree entirely. Game farming is a direct threat to hunting and the unique North American style of conservation.

The North American conservation model:

-Excludes the commercial trade in wildlife parts.

-Maintains public ownership of game. This is important since it gives large parts of the population access to and therefore interest in our game and their habitat. Compare this with the old European class based model where only a tiny few have access to hunting/shooting. Broad access in NA translates into wide support for conservation and the hunting that is a vital part of it.

-Provides wide economic opportunity. WIDE is the important word. Wildlife generates profit not through body parts but through spin offs: Tourism, travel and all that goes into it, taxidermy, guiding, retail from Bass Pro and Walmart to custom rifles, magazines, tv shows, conventions and whatever else I didn't think of off the cuff.

-Simply works. A few seconds on Google will provide your favourite examples.

Game farming is a threat to hunting because:

-It provides a market for animal parts. That came within a hair of completely destroying our wildlife in the past. Those days are gone, but a trade in wildlife parts, whether meat, hide or antlers/horns provides an opportunity for criminals.

-It inevitably spreads disease among the wild populations. Look at the CWD discussion here. Plenty of other examples through history.

-It relies on the Lowest Common Denominator to counter the above points. It is not the skilled, conscientious farmer that is the problem but the well intentioned fool, the dumb, desperate or criminal that are.

-It harms conservation by encouraging selective breeding for human ends. Bison that are docile and with bigger hind quarters, huge antlers, odd colours. Those huge antlered stags from pens in Argentina or New Zealand wouldn't survive a single rut in a wild population. Natural selection doesn't just go for antler size, but a combination of antler size, body mass, strength, agility and the ability to store fat. Rivals and winter would kill those pen raised oddities in a hurry.

-Worst of all, game farming separates wildlife from the masses. I'm writing this from our second home on a small ranch in central Alberta that we bought with hunting in mind. I've hunted in Scotland and hunted in Africa multiple times. We can pay to play. But when the average guy can't get access to hunting, he'll lose interest in wildlife and conservation. Then society will stop allowing hunting and the game will fade away.

Every place with enough game to hunt has its own functioning system. The NA system is unique for the broad based support and widespread opportunities it has successfully provided for the last 100 odd years. Letting short term issues distort the long term foundations of the system is doing a disservice to the past and the future. The great conservationists of the past such as the founders of the B&C Club must be spinning in their graves with the growth of game farming.

Dean

Dean,

There is no North American model. Every special interest group in the two nations has ensured this.

Look at the natives, who can pretty much do what they want.

Or states with private land issues like Texas, Utah, California, Colorado, Iowa, Saskatchewan where leases and deer farming has been the norm for a while.

My sister's brother in-law owns a deer farm here in Pa. each deer that dies of any cause has a sample of brain tissue and a lymph node sent in to the Dept. of Agri. for testing, no exceptions. That makes very good sense what does not make sense is how poorly our government has written the laws about those very same deer that have the samples sent in, i.e. there is no language in the law on how to dispose of the remaining brain tissue or spinal cord, etc. They could very legally take those parts of a deer that proved positive for CWD and dump them outside their enclosure for all wild varmints to spread or other deer to come in contact with.
Right now in Pa the Pa Game commission is on a mission to lower deer numbers statewide even further than they have in the last 15 years with 1 million doe tags issued each of those 15 years. Sportsmen whom pay the bills have finally said enough is enough so guess what???? CWD suddenly pops up in the state at several places at the same time!
The problem with the deer herd in Pa isn't CWD it is the PGC.

Dean, in many instances you are preaching to the choir, but, reality is, hunting, including high fence trophy hunting has became big business, and that is not going to change.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Dean, in many instances you are preaching to the choir, but, reality is, hunting, including high fence trophy hunting has became big business, and that is not going to change.

CH: I agree it is a business whether some of us like it or not. It is not my cup of tea as I just do not understand what a guy gets out of walking up to a pen that sometimes is only an acre or two and blasting a 200"+ buck or a 400" bull. If they eat the meat I would think it a bit tough to swallow.

I see a new outbreak has occurred in Ohio.

World Class Whitetails of Ohio

Millersburg, OH.

Deer farm and hunting preserve

Holmes County, Ohio

Article in Plain Dealer newspaper. Article indicates may be from buying big bucks from Pennsylvania game farm.

CDC says no worries for humans. Then again they are in charge of our Ebola efforts, so there you go.

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If they eat the meat I would think it a bit tough to swallow.

From what I have seen on the operation I work on and A High Fence place I worked on a few day a couple of different times, those type "Trophy" hunters, don't want any of the meat, and I don't think it is an issue concerning transporting it.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
I see a new outbreak has occurred in Ohio.

World Class Whitetails of Ohio

Millersburg, OH.

Deer farm and hunting preserve

Holmes County, Ohio

Article in Plain Dealer newspaper. Article indicates may be from buying big bucks from Pennsylvania game farm.

CDC says no worries for humans. Then again they are in charge of our Ebola efforts, so there you go.

The Millersberg farm is about a 10 minute drive from my home, if it is the game farm/hunting pen I am thinking of. If it is the same one, no wonder they have a problem. A very small pen with a lot of deer stuffed in it.

There has been an increase of the deer preserves/farms/breading in Pennsylvania. Way too many if you ask me. Seems like everyone is out to make a $.

America has been the poster child of Capitalism for decades.

Want to place blame somewhere, start with "Hunters", that have made deer hunting a "Competitive" sport where the person willing to spend the most $$$$$$$$ kill the biggest bucks.

Blame needs to be placed on those responsible.

"Hunters" over the past 30 years or so have became enamored with the numbers game. Smart business people saw that there was a demand and they found a way to meet that demand.

Blame your fellow hunters and your states game and agriculture commissions if you simply have to blame someone.

quote:

-Worst of all, game farming separates wildlife from the masses. I'm writing this from our second home on a small ranch in central Alberta that we bought with hunting in mind. I've hunted in Scotland and hunted in Africa multiple times. We can pay to play. But when the average guy can't get access to hunting, he'll lose interest in wildlife and conservation. Then society will stop allowing hunting and the game will fade away.

My issue with game fences..........


.

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My issue with game fences..........

It is my issue also, but J, if it weren't for critters getting out of those high fence places, your place at Barksdale would not be near as interesting as it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

My issue with game fences..........

It is my issue also, but J, if it weren't for critters getting out of those high fence places, your place at Barksdale would not be near as interesting as it is.

Agreed, certainly! And I don't really have any problem with high fencing exotics......


.

I don't believe a lot of us have a problem with High Fencing Exotics. That actually makes sense because they are not supposed to be there in the first place.

White tails are different, but are you or I or anyone else really against Free Enterprise?

That is what High Fence Deer Ranches are, Free Enterprise in action!

How do we, hunters as a group, convince other "Hunter's" that the numbers game and shooting pen raised livestock is detrimental to hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:


White tails are different, but are you or I or anyone else really against Free Enterprise?

That is what High Fence Deer Ranches are, Free Enterprise in action!

How do we, hunters as a group, convince other "Hunter's" that the numbers game and shooting pen raised livestock is detrimental to hunting?

I'm against this free enterprise because I want to hunt. Just because it's free doesn't make it good for hunting or good for anything. Selling cocaine used to be legal free enterprise and then it wasn't.

The same should happen here for 2 very good reasons:

1. These deer farmers and the POS killers who finance them are facilitating and accelerating the spread of CWD. Their legal method of business and hunting is infringing on my opportunity to hunt disease free deer now and may infringe on my right to hunt deer in many places I want to legally hunt. As soon as somebody gets a prion disease and they think it may be from eating CWD infected meat, I'm screwed. The government will overreact like with Ebola, mark my words.

2. Those on the fence voters, who are neither hunters nor rabid antis, might associate this BS with me and my "hunting" and think "this is crap and if this is what hunting has come to and the hunting community supports this, then I'm sick of it and I'm going to vote it all down."
As a hunter with almost 5 decades in, I can say if this farm killing was all there was I would vote against hunting myself. So I don't see it beyond the pale that fence sitters will vote it down. For me it's disrespectful to the magnificent Whitetail.

The fence sitters see this agri-hunting and they think that's what hunting is. They don't know better and they don't care enough to find out, they just make a judgment on what they do know and vote against it.

Make no mistake the vast majority of voters are neither hunters or antis. They are people who care about other things as deeply as I care about hunting. They only make time to care about hunting when something catches their attention. That's why the antis use extreme visual aids and examples in their advertising. They know perfectly well that 80% of the voters simply do not have time between work, family and their hobbies, to give a shit about hunting. If we don't self regulate with an eye towards keeping these people out of the voting booth, all hunting will "hang together".