AsI type this, the AZ Game Commission is doing the final cleanup after just passing a COMPLETE ban on the use of trail cameras for the take of wildlife in AZ. Goes into effect, Jan. 2022.

The rule, passed unanamously 5-0:



And before discussion begins, here's the definition of "take" as used in AZ:

20. “Take” means pursuing, shooting, hunting, fishing, trapping, killing, capturing, snaring or netting wildlife or placing or using any net or other device or trap in a manner that may result in capturing or killing wildlife.

Some of the super aggressive and annoying outfitters can be blamed for this. I can think of a few....

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Some of the super aggressive and annoying outfitters can be blamed for this. I can think of a few....

And other outfitters lobbied for the ban

I hope other states follow Arizona’s lead and ban them there

Some outfitters are old school and don’t do the trail cam thing. I agree it got way out of hand and the jimmy john governor elk tag hunt with A3 was the straw that broke the camels back I’m guessing...

This final result has been in the works for more than a year. The topic had been folded, spindled, mutilated, squashed, crunched, stomped, crinkled & run over by a truck. Any comments made at yesterday's meeting was merely repetitive rehashing because it was part of the rule-making process.

The game commission had two options in front of them -- a complete ban or a seasonal ban. It was time to either shit or get off the pot; they either had to pass one or reject both. And there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that they would reject both.

In MT you cannot use then in hunting season

That's awesome, I hope they do something similar here.

The number of trail cameras in the Gila was staggering.

Time to watch Craig's list I could use a few more.

thumbs up from this guy too.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
it got way out of hand and the jimmy john governor elk tag hunt with A3 was the straw that broke the camels back I’m guessing...

I am behind on this... what was the issue with the Jimmy John’s owner’s elk hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


I am behind on this... what was the issue with the Jimmy John’s owner’s elk hunt?

Irrelevant tangent to the trail cam issue.

OK, I guess I must not get out enough, but could someone please explain what the issue is? I can’t picture why having a few cameras around where you hunt would give such an enormous advantage over the game that it is unsporting. Lots of states don’t have a problem with hunters sitting over salt block, timed feeder or feed plot even though it is pretty clear those things tilt animals’ behavior to a hunter’s advantage. All the cameras can do is tell you what you could have learned if you parked your butt in the woods for 24 hours a day.
To be clear, I am not advocating for or against the rule change. I really just want to understand what the issues are.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

Irrelevant tangent to the trail cam issue.

Tony,
I don’t doubt that is true, but o would still like to know what the issue was in the JJ elk hunt regarding trail cams.

And if you wouldn’t mind, I would also like to know what the objection is to trail cams in AZ. This thread hasn’t made that clear to me.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Tony,
I don’t doubt that is true, but o would still like to know what the issue was in the JJ elk hunt regarding trail cams.

And if you wouldn’t mind, I would also like to know what the objection is to trail cams in AZ. This thread hasn’t made that clear to me.

There was NOTHING related about the JJ hunt to trail cams.

The "issue" has been ongoing for two years now, and all that has transpired would fill three pages here. It began because some folks got carried away using them. This latest commission meeting and passage of the rule was merely the culmunation of it all. There's a similar rule in Nevada.

There are many old message threads on the topic on various hunting sites such as Monster Mulies & CouesWhitetail.Com. The latter probably has the best since it's mostly AZ people. Just use 'trail camera' as a search term.

Does this apply to both public and private land?

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Does this apply to both public and private land?

Everywhere

Would not upset me if they banned them everywhere.. Here in Ohio the deer have names based on trail cam pictures.. Patterning a deer now translates to checking trailcam picture so you know exactly what time "Loppyrack" or some other stupid name will come to the feeder. Just pop into your stand 30 min before he arrives, wack him, post lots of pictures on Facebook and go home...

I get tired of the "I've watched him for 4 years (via cellular trailcam) and this Tuesday at 5:15pm I'm gonna "harvest" loppyrack.. Oh and I will video the kill shot so I can stream it on youtube while tellign everyone what bow, arrow, broadhead and camo I used...

So much for honored tradition I guess...

Sorry - rant over...

quote:

Would not upset me if they banned them everywhere.. Here in Ohio the deer have names based on trail cam pictures.. Patterning a deer now translates to checking trailcam picture so you know exactly what time "Loppyrack" or some other stupid name will come to the feeder. Just pop into your stand 30 min before he arrives, wack him, post lots of pictures on Facebook and go home...

I get tired of the "I've watched him for 4 years (via cellular trailcam) and this Tuesday at 5:15pm I'm gonna "harvest" loppyrack.. Oh and I will video the kill shot so I can stream it on youtube while tellign everyone what bow, arrow, broadhead and camo I used..

Me neither. While not bad in and of themself, like anything else they can be abused when done to excess(ie, 'modern' syn/stainless 209 using, pellet-powdered telescopic equipped muzzle loaders for 'primitive' seasons. My Dad loved those). Outfitters blanketing areas with hundreds of cameras is absurd and unsporting IMO.

At some point, if you watch the animal multiple times per day via cell phone for months or years to pattern it, feed it with food plots and stock tanks and condition its behavior with feeders (such as showing up outside the blind at half time on Saturdays), restrict its movement with high fences, engage in "quality management" for big antlers, that is animal husbandry, you have crossed the line from hunting into the ranching of free range animals. Just me, but there is no thrill in that for me (not flaming, just MHO). It eliminates the thrill of the chase and turns it into a mechanical exercise like slaughtering livestock.

Bob

On my hunt in Arizona went to one water hole and 13 cameras were on it. If you own private land and want to use cameras I don't have a problem with that. I use a couple to see what size and amount of elk are around. No sense sitting in a spot if nothing is coming by. I don't rely specifically on them. I think they should be banned during hunting season but don't have a problem with them during preseason. Hence people go overboard and wreck it for everybody

quote:

Originally posted by twilli:
On my hunt in Arizona went to one water hole and 13 cameras were on it.....

Hence people go overboard and wreck it for everybody

Ok, now I understand the issue. I’ll stop irritating Tony with my questions.

One of the biggest problems with trail cams on public land.

Is that some camera owners think they have exclusive rights.

To that area because they placed a camera there.

quote:

Originally posted by twilli:
On my hunt in Arizona went to one water hole and 13 cameras were on it. If you own private land and want to use cameras I don't have a problem with that. I use a couple to see what size and amount of elk are around. No sense sitting in a spot if nothing is coming by. I don't rely specifically on them. I think they should be banned during hunting season but don't have a problem with them during preseason. Hence people go overboard and wreck it for everybody

You make a good point - I don't have issue with people using on their private land. After all, it is their land.. I still feel it is borderline from an ethics standpoint simply due to the optics of how it portrays hunters and hunting...

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Ok, now I understand the issue. I’ll stop irritating Tony with my questions.

No irritation hear. All's good. Happy as a clam at high tide.

I’ll disagree from reading the accounts of the parties involved. Trail cameras were very real issue on that debacle like many other high dollar outfitter hunts. As well as overly aggressive outfitters using dubious tactics etc. But certainly not the only issue. Finding a trophy on camera and thinking you “own” it Is most definitely an issue in my opinion. But agreed there are other issues. But I’m am happy with the ban which is unfortunate people can’t control themselves or be reasonable. A typical situation. I believe the story was posted on this forum

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


I am behind on this... what was the issue with the Jimmy John’s owner’s elk hunt?

Irrelevant tangent to the trail cam issue.

Exactly my point

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
One of the biggest problems with trail cams on public land.

Is that some camera owners think they have exclusive rights.

To that area because they placed a camera there.

It’s their land but it’s the states animals is the logic in guessing but who knows

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Powell:

quote:

Originally posted by twilli:
On my hunt in Arizona went to one water hole and 13 cameras were on it. If you own private land and want to use cameras I don't have a problem with that. I use a couple to see what size and amount of elk are around. No sense sitting in a spot if nothing is coming by. I don't rely specifically on them. I think they should be banned during hunting season but don't have a problem with them during preseason. Hence people go overboard and wreck it for everybody

You make a good point - I don't have issue with people using on their private land. After all, it is their land.. I still feel it is borderline from an ethics standpoint simply due to the optics of how it portrays hunters and hunting...

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I’ll disagree from reading the accounts of the parties involved. Trail cameras were very real issue on that debacle like many other high dollar outfitter hunts.

No problem. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I’ll disagree from reading the accounts of the parties involved. Trail cameras were very real issue on that debacle like many other high dollar outfitter hunts. As well as overly aggressive outfitters using dubious tactics etc. But certainly not the only issue.

Can you explain. I’m interested to know what transpired. I googled it and didn’t find anything about trail cams and the JJ’s elk hunt.

I agree that water holes covered in cameras and people taking “ownership” of game that they have caught on camera is BS.

One good thing about trail cameras is that sometimes they get the picture of something else like a poacher/trespasser or cougar you didn't know you had or even that stray(for Az.) jaguar out of mexico. High fence ranches in texas couldn't live without them.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
I’ll disagree from reading the accounts of the parties involved. Trail cameras were very real issue on that debacle like many other high dollar outfitter hunts. As well as overly aggressive outfitters using dubious tactics etc. But certainly not the only issue.

Can you explain. I’m interested to know what transpired. I googled it and didn’t find anything about trail cams and the JJ’s elk hunt.

I agree that water holes covered in cameras and people taking “ownership” of game that they have caught on camera is BS.

JBrown,

Watch the youtube video linked to the first post in the following thread:

HUGE AZ Governor's Tag Elk



.

One more right taken from land owners. Seems like lumping private land in with public land was unrelated to the perceived problem and complaints.

Since our Sheriff could care less about tresspassers... I use cameras heavily for security. I wonder how many ten$ of thousand$ it will cost landowners to defend from the charges of using cameras for security and not for "taking animals" on a hunting ranch????

I have my own place . Generally, I have between 35 & 50 cameras running. Are they useful? Absolutely. Do they make it easy to kill a big buck? Absolutely not.

I whacked a monster buck last year. It took me 3 years to get him.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have my own place . Generally, I have between 35 & 50 cameras running. Are they useful? Absolutely. Do they make it easy to kill a big buck? Absolutely not.

I whacked a monster buck last year. It took me 3 years to get him.

Out west it sure makes it easier, especially in dry country. I know of guzzlers that have been strategically drained, people that block water all night to make them come to drink during the day, setting radios on drinkers all night to keep them off the water, surrounding water with multiple spotters where a target animal watered at over night. I don’t have a problem with cameras, I have a problem with assholes that abuse them and fair chase gets thrown out the window.

I would have been cool if they made people pull them 2 weeks before the season like they do in Nevada but I completely understand why they just eliminated them all together.

I do it understand how a trail camera can be so decisive and divisive.

So, you have an elk on camera. You still have to engage in legal access to go in there, play the wind, and get lucky to kill him.

The problems described in the post above are not trail camera problems, but the unethical manipulation of water on public land (which is probably illegal).

Yep

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have my own place . Generally, I have between 35 & 50 cameras running. Are they useful? Absolutely. Do they make it easy to kill a big buck? Absolutely not.

I whacked a monster buck last year. It took me 3 years to get him.

Out west it sure makes it easier, especially in dry country. I know of guzzlers that have been strategically drained, people that block water all night to make them come to drink during the day, setting radios on drinkers all night to keep them off the water, surrounding water with multiple spotters where a target animal watered at over night. I don’t have a problem with cameras, I have a problem with assholes that abuse them and fair chase gets thrown out the window.

I would have been cool if they made people pull them 2 weeks before the season like they do in Nevada but I completely understand why they just eliminated them all together.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do it understand how a trail camera can be so decisive and divisive.

So, you have an elk on camera. You still have to engage in legal access to go in there, play the wind, and get lucky to kill him.

The problems described in the post above are not trail camera problems, but the unethical manipulation of water on public land (which is probably illegal).

The only way people can effectively do those things is with data obtained from trail cameras. Without the knowledge they provide those tactics would be fairly ineffective as you wouldn’t know where the biggest and best animals were or what their patterns are like. The competition for big animals drive people to do stupid shit and knowledge gained from 24/7 surveillance of every water hole in a unit congregates people to those certain areas, gives them the knowledge they need to bend and break rules and it’s simply not ethical in how they’re being utilized.

Not everybody is this way but it only take a few to ruin it

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I do it understand how a trail camera can be so decisive and divisive.

So, you have an elk on camera. You still have to engage in legal access to go in there, play the wind, and get lucky to kill him.

The problems described in the post above are not trail camera problems, but the unethical manipulation of water on public land (which is probably illegal).

The only way people can effectively do those things is with data obtained from trail cameras. Without the knowledge they provide those tactics would be fairly ineffective as you wouldn’t know where the biggest and best animals were or what their patterns are like. The competition for big animals drive people to do stupid shit and knowledge gained from 24/7 surveillance of every water hole in a unit congregates people to those certain areas, gives them the knowledge they need to bend and break rules and it’s simply not ethical in how they’re being utilized.

Not everybody is this way but it only take a few to ruin it

Thank you for further explaining the relationship between trail cameras and the manipulation of water. I honestly could not even perceive of such interface.

Yes, the law is designed against the lowest common denominator. Laws are designed from the standpoint of stopping the base actor.

The logic present we need to stop the manipulation of water, so remove the instrument (trail cameras) that slows bad actors to manipulate water.

However, I would error on the side of fewer laws, fewer bans, and just codify against and prosecute the act of manipulating the water.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

However, I would error on the side of fewer laws, fewer bans, and just codify against and prosecute the act of manipulating the water.

I agree with this 100%. I was personally hoping they would do like Nevada did and make people take them down 2 or 3 weeks before the season so the right to use wasn’t taken away and the fair chase aspect was protected. This would have been a best case scenario IMO

quote:

Originally posted by drummondlindsey:
I agree with this 100%. I was personally hoping they would do like Nevada did and make people take them down 2 or 3 weeks before the season so the right to use wasn’t taken away and the fair chase aspect was protected. This would have been a best case scenario IMO

I believe the Nevada law bans the use of cams from Aug. 1 thru Dec. 31. It's even longer for those that transmit images, but I don't recall the dates.

I love trail cams! It’s a non invasive way to scout in many regards. It’s been an unbelievable advantage for me and my scouting. It wouldn’t break my heart if it becomes banned. There is something to be said about the unknown and hunting without modern advantages. Many skills can be lost by modern technologies. IMO this should only be applied to open , crown or USA state lands as it would even the playing fields . Private land you should be able to manage and use the the tools as you see fit, IMO.