I'm thinking of putting in for a cow hunt next year. Anyone here hunted with these folks?

You take your chances hunting with Indians

I never have, but the guide I use in New Mexico for an off reservation hunt does the guiding on one of the reservations. He a straight up guy. Everyone I know that has hunted reservation land had a good experience. Cow hunts are fast and relatively inexpensive.

WLW, that's kind of what I was thinking -- a fairly straightforward way for my daughter to gain experience and put good venison in the freezer.

You might want to talk to the Jicarilla's in Dulce also and see what they have to offer.

I suggest not telling either that you are talking to the other band about hunting though.

Non Tribal land, but doesn't Vermejo Ranch offer fairly reasonable cow permits also?

TC, never even thought about Vermejo Park, as it is so upper crust.

quote:

never even thought about Vermejo Park, as it is so upper crust.

A couple of different outfitters offer cow elk hunts at Vermejo Park Ranch and the prices are reasonable. I've gone with Kiowa Hunting Services about a dozen times and can recommend them. Got my cow every time and saw lots of those bulls that they get $12,000 for.

The cow hunts book up very early in the year.

Well, they have hunting on both the Reservation in Dulce and in Chama on the Chama Land & Cattle. There is lots of private land and lots of outfitters in Chama who can put you on a cow cheaper. It's unit 4 and its loaded with Elk.

Hey Bill, I am not upper crust and have fished and stayed at Vermejo Park.

I am so "not upper crust" that I shoot my cow elk in Texas! For $600 for this one:


Ate steaks from her tonight - Yummy.

Oh man, Charles, it has been far too long since I ate elk venison. Guessing you used some flavor of .405 on that one.

I took my 1895 .405 and M70 .308 with scope.
As luck would have it, it was very difficult to get in range of either cow or bull elk the first morning. Went after axis that afternoon and they were too shy or over hunted as they either stayed in heavy cover or out in the open 1/2 mile away.
The next morning, the guide told me to bring a scoped rifle and he put me within 200 yards of the cow and my first shot double lunged her; 40 paces and down. Later that morning while sneaking along a rimrock in search of axis doe, I shot a coyote.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Oh man, Charles, it has been far too long since I ate elk venison. Guessing you used some flavor of .405 on that one.

Hi Bill,

I had a talk with one of the guides about hunting the Taos Pueblo Reservation and they have some good rather economical hunts. PM me if your would like more info and contact number.

Some really large bulls and Mule deer come off that reservation, I know some folks that told me their experience was excellent.

For Trophy bulls out of this world, I can put you in touch with a rancher that has the biggest bulls Ive ever seen on one ranch, a 400 is likely. Fair chase low fenced, Located in Southern Idaho and about a 100% success rate. I don't book for him but he is a good friend of mine. Check it out on Facebook, Flying Spear Outfitters and adventures/Aslett Ranches...Tell Steve Aslett I referred you.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Some really large bulls and Mule deer come off that reservation, I know some folks that told me their experience was excellent.

For Trophy bulls out of this world, I can put you in touch with a rancher that has the biggest bulls Ive ever seen on one ranch, a 400 is likely. Fair chase low fenced, Located in Southern Idaho and about a 100% success rate. I don't book for him but he is a good friend of mine. Check it out on Facebook, Flying Spear Outfitters and adventures/Aslett Ranches...Tell Steve Aslett I referred you.

Those are nice elk. I think I will look at them in a couple of years.

My father used to hunt the reservation for mule deer. Great deer hunting according to him. I have hunted unit 4 for Elk which is outside the reservation. A ton of Elk in unit 4 all on private land. Big elk on big ranches like Chama Land & Cattle and Quilion Ranch and others. But for a cheap cow hunt which is that the poster is looking for, some of the small outfitters that have access to the small ranches will be cheaper then the large ranch hunts.

used to live near Mescalero Indian reservation, why would you hunt cow elk with them? just curious, that place is a trophy bull elk haven with some of the largest bulls to roam out west...their price is comparable to Chama prices. Go to Colorado, or WY to hunt cow elk...

BillinOregon, if you're looking for an easy and inexpensive cow elk hunt, contact Todd Black of Deseret Ranches in Utah. Closer to home, only takes a day or two for her to shoot a cow and it's a nice private ranch hunt.

Mescalero is where people go to hunt giant bulls, and it's one of the best places in all of the country for that. Long way from Oregon just to hunt a cow elk.

Ray Atkinson, you're experienced enough to know better than to say "a 400 bull is likely" about any low fenced property, anywhere. Especially in the 'giant elk hotbed' of Idaho. Yes, some of the southern units (40, 41, 54, 55) have good numbers of big bulls, but not true 400" class bulls. Damn few legitimate 400" bulls are killed across the entire USA in any given year and I think you know that. Now, if you want to say seeing a 350+ bull is likely in those units, I might believe that. Telling anyone a free range 400" bull is likely is bullshit, even in Arizona or New Mexico, even on the Apache reservations. Besides, try drawing a tag in any of those southern Idaho units. Damn near impossible.

DLS,
Maybe you should check out the web sight..I live in Idaho, been hunting it for 36 years, I believe this to be the best elk trophy bull hunt in the USA Unit 46..I saw a bull this year while hunting coyotes on gov. land that borders his ranch, and his horns went 12 to 18 inches past his butt, and Ive never seen that in my lifetime. and he was with 11 other bulls that were huge..

If I change the post to say possible in that I belive that he has a 400 or two on that outfit and that I could kill one there given the opertunity. would that make you happy. When was the last time you were in the area..I drew a cow in Unit 40 this year..Ive been watching the bulls it unit 55, 54, 46 for the last 30 years and they just keep getting better and better in these units with proper management and very limited draw. I also suspect that when the shooting starts every bull in the Owyhee heads for his private land ranch.

I have never seen a bull larger than 320 as recall in any other units North of of Interstate 20 in Idaho except on Gary Painters pawn shop wall..It was a 400 according to Gary. I suspect that Idaho has produced a few 400 bulls in the past however, and expect to see some in the future unless the program gets snafued and it very well may with the any cow within a mile of a plowed field can be shot with a general tag..

This if fun.

A bull with a main beam 12-18" past his butt you say?

I do agree that 54, 40 and 46 can produce tremendous bulls. (I killed one out on the desert one winter and saw one that was way bigger, but broke.) However, being able to hunt the entire unit is usually key. The individual you refer to I believe can only guide on private land, not public, correct?

They killed a spectacular bull in the archery season last year. Last I heard, it did not score 400" though. (And that is not saying anything detrimental to that bull, it is huge.)

Yes and I called him 400 plus tad. When he lifted his head to the sky and scratched his ass Scott Ward and I got real excited.

I have a 382.5, according to a friend of mine who taped it unofficially hanging in my house. I had guessed him at 375 to 400 when I shot him. be glad to send a picture to ya'll and you be the judge. He isn't nearly as big as the one Scott and I saw. I don't pack a tape with me, not interested in that, but I can come pretty close to judging an elk in the field. Been hunting them a long time.

Ok, so referencing RMEF's webpage an average bull is 8 feet long from nose tip to tail.
A bull's antler bases are about 15 inches from his nose but let's just say two feet. So a bull would be six feet from antler base to his butt. That's 72 inches. The bull you speak of was 12-18 inches past his butt, so, you are saying you saw a bull with a main beam length of 84-90 inches?

And that doesn't, for a minute, sound a little far fetched to you?

I hope your cow hunt goes well. That's a good unit to see big bulls on.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
DLS,
Maybe you should check out the web sight..I live in Idaho, been hunting it for 36 years, I believe this to be the best elk trophy bull hunt in the USA Unit 46..I saw a bull this year while hunting coyotes on gov. land that borders his ranch, and his horns went 12 to 18 inches past his butt, and Ive never seen that in my lifetime. and he was with 11 other bulls that were huge..

If I change the post to say possible in that I belive that he has a 400 or two on that outfit and that I could kill one there given the opertunity. would that make you happy. When was the last time you were in the area..I drew a cow in Unit 40 this year..Ive been watching the bulls it unit 55, 54, 46 for the last 30 years and they just keep getting better and better in these units with proper management and very limited draw. I also suspect that when the shooting starts every bull in the Owyhee heads for his private land ranch.

I have never seen a bull larger than 320 as recall in any other units North of of Interstate 20 in Idaho except on Gary Painters pawn shop wall..It was a 400 according to Gary. I suspect that Idaho has produced a few 400 bulls in the past however, and expect to see some in the future unless the program gets snafued and it very well may with the any cow within a mile of a plowed field can be shot with a general tag..

Ray, OK, I checked out Flying Spears page. They appear to have taken some nice bulls, but there's only 1 giant bull shown and I doubt he actually makes 400" gross, though I wouldn't be surprised if he goes 390+. Most of the bulls shown range from about 310-340, depending on the bull. I'd say that's a pretty long way from 'likely to kill a 400" bull'. Bottom line is, a true 400" gross score bull is an extremely rare elk for anywhere. I've had the good fortune to hunt elk in some of this country's finest trophy elk units over the last 40 years in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and New Mexico. I've seen 2, possibly 3, bulls that would gross over 400". None of them are in my game room, biggest I have grossed 386". That is actually a long way from 400", as there are a hell of a lot more 380 class bulls roaming the hills (and even they are rare bulls) than there ever will be 400" bulls.

Bottom line really is, probably the only place in America where a true 400" bull is LIKELY would be on the Dry Lake unit of the San Carlos apache reservation. Lots of places where one is possible, but almost no place that one is likely.

I changed it to possible for you!! and it is..

If I draw before he dies, I will kill him, I know his area like the back of my hand and can usually find him in a few days, but I realize when the shooting starts he will be on that ranch, its safer there and across the line in Nevada and on that bombing range. He runs with another big bull...I, unlike you however am not as particular a trophy hunter and speak in generalities, I don't own a tape. I suppose, unlike you, if I see a 390 or even a 380 as a 400, guess its close enough for government work any year.

I have the same problem in Africa in that a 40 inch trophy bull is as good as a 42 inch bull in that its an inch on the tip of each horn, same for a 38 and a 40 inch bull...This is your conflict with me and I give you that. I tended to be a ball park trophy hunter in my day, but I have a garage full of big trophy elk horns but today I shoot a cow or two for the locker and just waiting to draw in 46.

I certainly appreciate your educating me on where all the 400 bulls are and aren't, but not sure I buy off on all of your expertise.

Ray, don't get your panties all in a bunch. The reason I'm busting your chops on the 'killing a 400" bull is likely' comment is that in this day and age, every nimrod out there (no, I'm not suggesting you're a nimrod, I realize you have considerable experience) thinks they have to kill a 350 bull though many guys wouldn't recognize a 350 bull if it stuck his antlers up their ass. Same goes with 400 bulls. Lots of bulls that are represented as 400 bulls are nowhere near that, even though they're still great bulls in their own right. Guys tend to exaggerate just a wee bit, especially when many don't know a 350 from a 370 from a 400.

BTW, I'm not inches obsessed, never entered a single animal in any record book (B&C, Rowland ward, P&Y or Longhunter. I don't consider SCI a legitimate record book) even though I've shot animals that'd go into them. What I am is someone with a BS meter, which is what the likelihood of killing a 400 bull is nearly everywhere.

That said, perhaps I too should apply for 46 next year. I'm sure there are good numbers of big bulls there, regardless of what they score. My problem is I've never drawn a LE tag in Idaho. Tough state to draw a premium tag.

DLS,
It is tough as hell for a resident to draw and Idaho tag..Unit 54 has awesome bulls and numbers are up and growing but only 12 bulls allowed...cows can be shot on a general license about anywhere but have to be within a mile of cultivated field, after day two or three they head for the high country...55 has some really big bulls and neighbors 54 so its the same gene pool..

46 IMO has the biggest, but its a huge area and the elk may be 25 miles apart, hard as hell to hunt unless you have a lot of time and know the area so the success rate is very poor unless you know someone like a cowboy or rancher who is up amonst them all the time..

Unit 40 includes units 40, 41 and most of 42, so it can be a good area also..but again its huge for the number of elk in the area..The owahee is best for locals IMO..54 and 55 for the non resident is a cinch if one can draw and pass up 300 bulls, few can but they have some 350 bulls and maybe larger...

Our only disagreesment lies in the fact that you feel that 400 bulls can't be found, wherein I feel that any area producing 350 to 380 bulls as we both agree on simply has to have a 400 somewhere in the mix, the genepool is there..

Ive only seen one in my life that I would swear was at least a .400 and Ive been on enough game farms and SCI and shot shows to know a .400 if I see one or come pretty close, at least I hope so. I know where there is one right now, but didn't draw and he is probably on that ranch as he was just across the road when I saw him and there is some wonderful untouched country on that ranch, most bulls are killed in the low country there is the other reason I think he is there. I searced this summer for his horns and never found them..I am still horseback and looking for those sheds.

We did hunt the Mescalero but its a long time ago now. No internet in those days. Mescalero then had some monster elk and apparently it still does. It was expensive then and I wouldn't expect any thing less today. As to 400 inch bulls - I can't say either way on that. If they are anywhere near approaching that - Big is big to me.

Later we hunted in Chama. I can say I spent a week up there once in some of the worst winter weather of the 1900s. It was just our luck for a late season hunt.

What caught my eye in this thread is the cow elk hunts. I want to get my daughter on one. Maybe the Vermejo Park if I can find the guides for it - or the Kiowa sounds very good too. Heck I might give my Sharps rifle a run at one even. But I think I'll keep some warm clothes stashed handy either way.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
DLS,
It is tough as hell for a resident to draw and Idaho tag..Unit 54 has awesome bulls and numbers are up and growing but only 12 bulls allowed...cows can be shot on a general license about anywhere but have to be within a mile of cultivated field, after day two or three they head for the high country...55 has some really big bulls and neighbors 54 so its the same gene pool..

46 IMO has the biggest, but its a huge area and the elk may be 25 miles apart, hard as hell to hunt unless you have a lot of time and know the area so the success rate is very poor unless you know someone like a cowboy or rancher who is up amonst them all the time..

Unit 40 includes units 40, 41 and most of 42, so it can be a good area also..but again its huge for the number of elk in the area..The owahee is best for locals IMO..54 and 55 for the non resident is a cinch if one can draw and pass up 300 bulls, few can but they have some 350 bulls and maybe larger...

Our only disagreesment lies in the fact that you feel that 400 bulls can't be found, wherein I feel that any area producing 350 to 380 bulls as we both agree on simply has to have a 400 somewhere in the mix, the genepool is there..

Ive only seen one in my life that I would swear was at least a .400 and Ive been on enough game farms and SCI and shot shows to know a .400 if I see one or come pretty close, at least I hope so. I know where there is one right now, but didn't draw and he is probably on that ranch as he was just across the road when I saw him and there is some wonderful untouched country on that ranch, most bulls are killed in the low country there is the other reason I think he is there. I searced this summer for his horns and never found them..I am still horseback and looking for those sheds.

The few times I've applied for Idaho elk, it's been for 54. Maybe I should switch to 46? If I ever draw, perhaps we should meet and go look for a bull as old as we are.

I'm never one to let facts get in the way of a good discussion, but....

https://idfg.idaho.gov/hunt/big-game/records

According to the IDGFD records (see above link). only NINE bulls over 400 from that state have been officially measured and recorded. The earliest 400 in the list was killed in 1954 and the latest in 1981.

The most recent big one was a 393.5 killed in 2000, and I recall writing about it in my IN THE FIELD column because it was big news for Idaho at the time. A 385 was killed in 2009, and only six over 380 have been tagged since 2000.

Sooo...regardless of what unit you apply for, don't expect a slew of 400-class bulls to run through your camp yelling "shoot me."

Are there at least one or more 400-inch bulls alive in Idaho? Perhaps. But Ray is the only one who knows where they are hiding.

Tony,
There have been a few bulls over 400" killed in Idaho recently. The only problem with researching that kind of thing is exactly what you referred to as, "officially measured and recorded". Lots of people harvest tremendous animals, have them scored, and never have them entered. If you were writing about them in 2000 then you were assuredly correct, but now is a totally different story. Saying, "only six over 380 have been tagged since 2000" is very far from the truth.
And in case anyone truly wonders, there are 400" bulls every year in southern Idaho. (Yes, pics and videos to prove it and no, I won't post them. I have at least three harvest photos on my phone of bulls over 400" and another two over 380".) This is almost always achieved by locals with great luck in the draws and intense drive to scout throughout the summer or with an outfitter.

Idaho is doing a fantastic job managing their trophy elk units for age while still providing opportunity units for experience/meat hunters. They seem to acknowledge the two distinct groups and work for both of them.

I want to apologize to Bill/Oregon for his post getting so side tracked and for my part in that.
I hope you find what you are looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by COYOTE HUNTER:
Saying, "only six over 380 have been tagged since 2000" is very far from the truth.

Mea culpa. "Tagged" was a poor verb choice since I was referring to the IDGFD list. I should have used "listed" or "officially entered."

As for the rest, I apologize. I had no idea how well Idaho's "local" hunters can keep secrets.

FYI, Kiowa also hunts cows on the Vermejo Park Ranch. Until this coming year I was hunting cow elk with Kiowa for my years meat supply.
I'm not going to hunt with them again because the quality of their guides has gone downhill big time.
This guy two years in a row has cut into the bladder or intestines when field dressing my elk, He uses his wife's paring knife to field dress elk.
He is more interested in chasing the herds with his truck than he is in letting his hunters shoot. Last year I was yelling; STOP,STOP I can kill one from here, but he just kept chasing the elk at a high rate of speed. I was so mad that I called Kiowa's office. When they defended the guide I decided that I would never again hunt with them. I killed a cow but due to the guide I had a bad time, my hunting partner did not kill out. We've always gone 100% in the past. Also when riding back and forth to the ranch we had to listen to him brag about what a great guide he was.
WOW, what if you paid them big money for a bull elk hunt and got this idiot for a guide?

SS
Couple of things . . .

I wonder if they reserve quality/decent guides for bull (high $$$) hunts and have this doofus for cow hunters. I for one would not want my elk run all over the place before I shot it either.

Reckon the paring knife is a ploy so "hunters" will feel sorry for him and give him a knife for his future use?

Sounds like he is pretty inept inside the carcass also. He must be a relative of someone.
A friend booked a hunt with someone in the SW part of the state (NM) and when they met up with him they were told that they would not be hunting with him, but with one of his guides. A couple of hours down the road the "guide" realized he had left part of the tack back at the ranch and so back they went.

First day spent driving around and then setting up camp.
First morning actually hunting the "guide" asked my friend what they should do . . . come to find out the "Guide" was just a ranch hand and knew about the general the area but not much about elk hunting.

John considered the dry conditions in the area, found trails that led to the nearest water searched the trails for tracks, found the one most used, staked it out and shot his elk. Then all he wanted was OUT OF THERE. Had to gut it too the ranch hand claimed he did not know how.


The next year I ran into a bowhunter in ABQ airport so I asked about his hunt. At first he was hesitant to discuss his hunt, so I knew there was a story to be told. Come to find out his guide insisted that they had to go to this spot because that is where the elk were. He said he told him no way he was illegally taking an elk in AZ. Guide insisted that they hunt the area because that is where the elk were. He said they were not only in AZ, a fair distance over the line.
He went to camp and insisted that they leave.

For those two stories of bad news, luckily there are hundreds of great guides and hunts, but bad guides are out there too.
Hope all of you get the good ones and have a GREAT hunt.

I was looking and we have 30 posts on your thread and I don't think anyone has posted any information about the hunts on the
Mescalero-Apache Reservation hunts for cow elk.
Surely someone has hunted with them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DLS:
Ray, don't get your panties all in a bunch. The reason I'm busting your chops on the 'killing a 400" bull is likely' comment is that in this day and age, every nimrod out there (no, I'm not suggesting you're a nimrod,

I'm sure you realize that the term "nimrod" simply means "hunter". The term "numb nuts" means something else.

So I DO suggest that Ray is a nimrod while a few others on here are numb nuts!

I just happen to be both or either from time to time.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
I'm thinking of putting in for a cow hunt next year. Anyone here hunted with these folks?

Bill,
I suggest you contact Jim Welles who posts here. He is an outfitter/agent that is Mr. New Mexico. If anyone can tell you the truth, it would be Jim.