Some time ago I had asked about bullet selection for a bear hunt. One thing led to another and I guess I really decided to go with a hollow point jacketed bullet. It was a Federal 210 grain classic something or other. I did not want a pass through. I got what I wanted.


The bullet weighed 201 grains and mushroomed very nicely. It was fired into the ribs of a 230 pound bear at point blank range. The bullet fell to the floor during skinning. It never broke a rib.

Make mine hard cast from this point forward.

The bear.



Notice the ribs.

So, help me understand. It entered the rib cage on the on-side, but never exited?

A pass thru on a bear is a good thing....better blood trailing especially with the thick absorbant fur and fat that tends to plug holes. Two holes are far better than one.

The slug NEVER entered the rib cage. The bear was dropped to the ground with a rifle shot to the neck. There had been a discussion about poor penetration on bears with jacketed handgun bullets. It seemed like the best test was laying at my feet, so I took the shot. The slug dropped onto the floor during the skinning process.

I have relegated that ammunition to porcupines.

Here is the entry wound. the bears neck was broken and I assume the heart was slowing or stopped when shot with the 41.

i would've never considered ever using an expandable on a bear from a .41 mag. good test.

Yikes! Not even through the on-side. Not good. This is why I use hardcast bullets -- they always punch through.......

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
i would've never considered ever using an expandable on a bear from a .41 mag. good test.

Didn't you use or recommend expanding bullets for Bison?


youp50, that is the exact reason that most savvy handgun hunters prefer a quality hard cast bullet for revolvers. Very hard to beat a quality hard cast bullet IMHO&E.

find me one place you argumentative ol'cuss that i recommended an expanding anything from a .41. i used it out of a 454 nearly maxed. significantly more power. you cannot possibly miss all the details you seem to when you start commenting do ya. caliber specifics are a bit important don't ya think.

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
find me one place you argumentative ol'cuss that i recommended an expanding anything from a .41. i used it out of a 454 nearly maxed. significantly more power. you cannot possibly miss all the details you seem to when you start commenting do ya. caliber specifics are a bit important don't ya think.

I never mentioned anything about a .41 now did I? Expanding is expanding, caliber not withstanding. A buffalo is tougher to penetrate than a 230 pound Black Bear.

if you didn't mention a .41 then this case is really rather irrelevant isn't it? expanding is not expanding and is very caliber specific. i was very caliber and very bullet specific. that said, it obviously isn't caliber irrelevant seeing as the buff worked fine, the blackbear not so much. perhaps it has more to do with the slight oooomph a .41 gives that fragile lil' bullet that was used above.

barnes and the old freedom arms bullets are very very different from say a hornady xtp. the hornady mag xtp's are very very different in performance from the non mag xtp's. lynn thompson's use of the .44 on those large waterbuff's in australia sure as heck do make a mockery of you statement with the way they worked. obviously a totally different bullet than what was used above. obviously. one wonders the need for you to comment this way.

Actually, I talked to Lynn's outfitter and he told me that the 300 XTPs worked so well because they didn't expand.

i talked to him too, and the wording he used is that they didn't expand much at all, sometimes not at all. i realize this and is not the point. the point is a .41 doesn't have the punch and that bullet isn't big enough obviously to do the job and that i simply said i'd never recommend an expanding bullet out of a .41. i would however if the right bullet is used out of a .44 mag or larger pistol. that said, i've seen miserable results out of a SW 500 with poorly constructed expandables. my recommendations are very specific to both bullet and caliber much in the same way i don't recommend a nosler ballistic tip on deer out of a 243 but would out of a 308. different construction, different amounts of penetration and expansion.

Hence no need for expandable bullets in the bigger calibers. They come pre-expanded. I think it's silly that some folks feel the need to make a .475, .500, or even a .45 bigger at the expense of penetration. That is not saying that the Casull's bullet won't penetrate enough to exit, but it might and it might not. Not worth rolling the dice, in my opinion. They simply aren't reliable enough for my taste. I know I don't have to pick and choose my angles with my hardcast bullets.

Anyhow, JMHO.

Here are some Random Thoughts...

Under penetration is ALWAYS a bad thing.

So, whether you are using a rifle or a handgun, ALWAYS error on the side of "over penetration"... for the game you are hunting...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Here are some Random Thoughts...

Under penetration is ALWAYS a bad thing.

So, whether you are using a rifle or a handgun, ALWAYS error on the side of "over penetration"... for the game you are hunting...

I couldn't agree more......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Hence no need for expandable bullets in the bigger calibers. They come pre-expanded. I think it's silly that some folks feel the need to make a .475, .500, or even a .45 bigger at the expense of penetration. That is not saying that the Casull's bullet won't penetrate enough to exit, but it might and it might not. Not worth rolling the dice, in my opinion. They simply aren't reliable enough for my taste. I know I don't have to pick and choose my angles with my hardcast bullets.

Anyhow, JMHO.

IMHO one should never compromise on penetration. Put a hole through an animal and game over. It's that simple

If you are not one for hard cast you need not fret as there are some jacketed bullets available that will penetrate very well and nearly as good as most hardcast...not as much but enough to do the job and then some. The .44 cal 270gr Speer GoldDot soft flat point come to mind. Same with the .475 400gr GD SP. These are the toughest jacketed bullets on the market and it's difficult to get them to expand...it takes some doing for sure. Penetration is up there too. If I was going to use a jacketed bullet for something tough and heavy, that is the one. Otherwise, the hardcast is the way to go but there are those that simply will not use hardcast and there are bear outfitters that will not allow you to use hardcast on blackies or grizzlies due to the # of bears lost in very dense undergrowth forested areas (Alaska) so you are forced to use a jacketed bullet if you choose to use the handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
If you are not one for hard cast you need not fret as there are some jacketed bullets available that will penetrate very well and nearly as good as most hardcast...not as much but enough to do the job and then some. The .44 cal 270gr Speer GoldDot soft flat point come to mind. Same with the .475 400gr GD SP. These are the toughest jacketed bullets on the market and it's difficult to get them to expand...it takes some doing for sure. Penetration is up there too. If I was going to use a jacketed bullet for something tough and heavy, that is the one. Otherwise, the hardcast is the way to go but there are those that simply will not use hardcast and there are bear outfitters that will not allow you to use hardcast on blackies or grizzlies due to the # of bears lost in very dense undergrowth forested areas (Alaska) so you are forced to use a jacketed bullet if you choose to use the handgun.

Don't leave out the Barnes Buster's and the Belt Mountain Punch Bullets

Nor the CorBon Penetrator......

X-caliber, whose 210 grainer are you using?

Nice deer there! Congratulations! I didn't see a single buck this season......

Only shot one deer.....

Hmmm... I wonder how the Hornady 210-grain jacketed silhouette bullets I have would have worked on that bear. Remarkably like a hard cast, I suspect.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
Whitworth, all of my .41 kills have been with the Remington 210 gr JSP. Currently, I'm hunting with the Hornady XTP but no kills with it yet. Hopefully soon.

The Remington is a JSP bullet that holds togehter well for the most part and does a good job most of the time.

I say most of the time because I saw Jack Huntington shoot a 1000 pound Buffalo in the neck with a 240 JSP Remington from the 44 mag (factory ammo) and the bullet stopped against the vertebrae and the Buffalo showed no sign of being hit. No reaction at all

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Hmmm... I wonder how the Hornady 210-grain jacketed silhouette bullets I have would have worked on that bear. Remarkably like a hard cast, I suspect.

Also the Barnes Buster and the Belt Mountain Punch bullets do a great job as well in the penetration department

A wide meplat flat point with leave a large wound channel and penetrate well

quote:

Originally posted by youp50:
The slug NEVER entered the rib cage. The bear was dropped to the ground with a rifle shot to the neck. There had been a discussion about poor penetration on bears with jacketed handgun bullets. It seemed like the best test was laying at my feet, so I took the shot. The slug dropped onto the floor during the skinning process.

I have relegated that ammunition to porcupines.

Here is the entry wound. the bears neck was broken and I assume the heart was slowing or stopped when shot with the 41.

What were the specifics for this load? What barrel length?

I can't tell from the photos, but are you saying the bullet mushroomed in the fat?

The picture of the bullet shows a very low impact velocity.

quote:

The picture of the bullet shows a very low impact velocity.

Not for that bullet IME

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

I saw Jack Huntington shoot a 1000 pound Buffalo in the neck with a 240 JSP Remington from the 44 mag (factory ammo) and the bullet stopped against the vertebrae and the Buffalo showed no sign of being hit. No reaction at all

According to the Technical Information available on MidayUSA's site, Remington's current factory loading with the 240 grain JSP is rather anemic. Another good reason to handload.

I've chrono'ed the Remington 240 jacketed factory loads at 1399 FPS from my 6 1/2" M-29 NOT ANEMIC IMHO
At least the ones that we were using

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:

quote:

I've chrono'ed the Remington 240 jacketed factory loads at 1399 FPS from my 6 1/2" M-29

That's more in line with what I would expect out of a 240 grain bullet. I'm shooting 300 grain cast with a book max load of 296 in my 7.5" 629-4 and getting just shy of 1300 fps. Perhaps the information on Midway's site is incorrect.

Maybe the newer loads are less I do not know about the newer ones. I know that a lot of brands are in the 1200 FPS range. The newer Winchester white box 240 JSP are in the high 1300's as well but the bullet is a bit too soft for my tastes

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
Whitworth, all of my .41 kills have been with the Remington 210 gr JSP. Currently, I'm hunting with the Hornady XTP but no kills with it yet. Hopefully soon.

I've also used the Remington 210 SP and the Hornady 210 XTP for some years on a variety of deer and pigs. I shoot them at 1450 fps over H110 out of a 7.5" Ruger Bisley .41 Magnum. I never had a problem with expansion or penetration. Those 2 bullets at that velocity have always killed quicker than any "Hard cast bullet" that I have tried in the .41 and I've tried quite a few in numerous S&W and Ruger revolvers since '75.

larry Gibson

i'm not surprised that bullet didn't exit, i am surprised it didn't enter the chest cavity. perhaps a squib load? i still would use a hardcast on bear from a 41. hell what if that had been a 400lb bear and no one with a rifle. my son will be using 225 grain corbon barnes xbp loads on his bear. it'll be in new mexico and not likely a really large bear.

that said, i've not used barnes busters but i love corbon penetrators. the 360's will be in his casull for oryx this january. i will be using the 250gr barnes corbon loads and will post pics and comparos on results.

I've never had a .41 XTP or Rem 210 JSP that didn't exit at any range up to 75 yards (my personal revolver iron sight limit). I did have a Federal not exit. I think they used the Speer bullets, but I could be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

The picture of the bullet shows a very low impact velocity.

Not for that bullet IME

It's lead with a cup. If it were a really hard alloy, then it would've had to be moving fast to expand, and it would've blown right through Yogi. If it is a soft alloy then it had to be moving very slow to expand as it did - too slow for anything bigger than gophers.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

The picture of the bullet shows a very low impact velocity.

Not for that bullet IME

It's lead with a cup. If it were a really hard alloy, then it would've had to be moving fast to expand, and it would've blown right through Yogi. If it is a soft alloy then it had to be moving very slow to expand as it did - too slow for anything bigger than gophers.

I've shot those loads and chrono'ed them and they are in the high 1300's in my M-57 and the ones that I have recovered look simular to the one posted here

The opening poster I beleive stated that the bullet was the Federal 210 JHP Classic. I have quite a few of them

The revolver is a Ruger Redhawk, barrel length 7.5 inches. The ammunition is Federal Classic 41 Remington Magnum 210 grain Hi-Shok jacketed hollow point. I have never chronographed this factory load so I could not tell you MV.

The point being missed is the test was taken because of poor penetration in black bears from factory JHP ammuniton. Yes, the mighty 44 has come up short too. All the guys over there (west central Wisconsin) have given up on factory JHP and are loading hardcast or a non HP bullet.

Of further note, this bear was still cognizant and in full control of his jaws. That can be a bad thing for a dog, he just happens to put a foot in the bears mouth and gets a broken leg for his trouble. I put a 3rd shot into the bottom of the skull. It was also a point blank thing. It got blood running from the ears, upon cleaning the bear and boiling the skull, there is no evidence to the skull that such a shot was taken. No broken bones.

Procupines and paper, that is it for these bullets. Glad i bought 10 boxes on the cheap.

No mention of Swift A-Frame ? Is Nosler permanently out of the handgun Partition business ?

quote:

Originally posted by youp50:

The point being missed is the test was taken because of poor penetration in black bears from factory JHP ammuniton. Yes, the mighty 44 has come up short too. All the guys over there (west central Wisconsin) have given up on factory JHP and are loading hardcast or a non HP bullet.

Amazing. Your singular experience with a 41mag and one type of bullet has made you a hardcast convert. I wonder what all the folks killing bears with 44mag 240gr XTPs think of your results?

Your experience shows that your bullet choice didn't work. It says nothing else. Let the evidence speak for itself.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by youp50:

The point being missed is the test was taken because of poor penetration in black bears from factory JHP ammuniton. Yes, the mighty 44 has come up short too. All the guys over there (west central Wisconsin) have given up on factory JHP and are loading hardcast or a non HP bullet.

Amazing. Your singular experience with a 41mag and one type of bullet has made you a hardcast convert. I wonder what all the folks killing bears with 44mag 240gr XTPs think of your results?

Your experience shows that your bullet choice didn't work. It says nothing else. Let the evidence speak for itself.

The evidence does speak for itself and it speaks loud, Hard Cast always work and always have worked

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

quote:

Originally posted by youp50:

The point being missed is the test was taken because of poor penetration in black bears from factory JHP ammuniton. Yes, the mighty 44 has come up short too. All the guys over there (west central Wisconsin) have given up on factory JHP and are loading hardcast or a non HP bullet.

Amazing. Your singular experience with a 41mag and one type of bullet has made you a hardcast convert. I wonder what all the folks killing bears with 44mag 240gr XTPs think of your results?

Your experience shows that your bullet choice didn't work. It says nothing else. Let the evidence speak for itself.

And dla's anti-hardcast tirade continues. I am convinced that he has had some bad experience with hardcasts bullets. Care to share?

Actually, if you read the entire post you will read where the test was done because of prior discussions about JHP and factory loads being grossly insufficient.

Not quite a singular observation.

A very good observation would be that a fall bear has very different anatomy than a deer or a pig.