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Bullet performance on the Big 5
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Stunt pilot,

The Barnes X you recovered look just like those I recovered from my 450 Dakota (same velocity as your Weatherby). Except you used them on The Big Five and I shot mine into a $5 water bucket.

Well, I am jealous!

If you are looking for the best 460 weatherby bullets, either FMJ or soft point, Iwould be happy to send you my article which tests all soft points and many FMJ's at 1-8, 1-10, 1-12, 1-14 twist.

Yoou did a great job. Congrats!

Andt
 
Posts: 1278 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 16 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Have just gotten my 460 Wby back from the gunsmith. It now weighs in at 14 lbs compared to its original 11.5lbs. New additions: Two mercury recoil reducers embedded in the buttstock and a 9 round "bandolier" of 500g solids around the outside of same in an elastic stock band. Will update the thread on how it shoots/performs with the 500g African Grand Slam reloads soon....

Jorge,
Had a chat with the gents at Weatherby in their "history" department. For a few bucks, this group will look up your rifle's serial number and send you its background. It's an intriguing offering. According to them, the Lazermark in 460 Wby was a factory option from the mid 70's, up to 1994. It went away when production moved from Japan that year. The unusual configuration of mine was factory original, albeit an older one. Given the rifle might have been out on the veld up to ~a decade before I acquired it makes one wonder what stories it could tell.
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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AP2: Thanks for the insight on the 460. It is indeed an unusual Weatherby. A purchased a Model 70 in 300 H&H about 25 years ago. It belonged to an older gent, now since passed on. The rifle was manufactured in 1941 and he had taken it to africa to the old "Kenya Colony" to hunt. I still have it to this day and it still holds half inch groups although I did have the stock reworked as the checkering was worn smooth. Thanks for r sharing and once again, great pictures! jorge


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Posts: 6974 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Andy-
Cuold you pass on a copy to me of that article please. I would be very interested.. Especially regarding what twistrate performed best using solids.. Thanks in advance..
 
Posts: 873 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Kyler Hamann
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Thanks for the info on the drop box magazine, I'd missed that.

I've got a Lazermark in .460 that I shot a buffalo with in Zim a couple years ago. It groups under and inch with several loads.

Kyler


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Posts: 2288 | Location: Central Coast of CA | Registered: 10 January 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
Thanks for the info on the drop box magazine, I'd missed that.
Kyler


Test results for Weatherby’s new 3 round drop box in the 460 Magnum: It worked flawlessly, even during hard rapid cycling of the bolt. No feed issues with either factory Barnes-X or factory 500g solids. That’s the good news.

However, test results for my 500g African Grand Slam handloads were not as encouraging. They repeatedly jammed on the feed ramp during same rapid bolt cycling. Likely culprit was the bullet's flat nose. Resulted in bolt face riding up and over the shell bottom and belt then jamming with round stuck in a diagonal position between the magazine and the chamber. Planning to experiment a bit more with deepening bullet seating, and/or stiffening magazine box spring but am not optimistic that will fix the problem. On a more positive note, the loads showed 2640 fps over the chrony using a compressed load of RL-19 with no pressure signs and excellent accuracy.
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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I think your observations are correct. I shoot the 450X bullets nearly exclusive from my 458 Lott at 2250-2300 fps and they are a serious force for anything alive. At 2600fps the bullets are just not able to perform as designed.

Saeed has found this with his 375 wildcat cartrigde. He actually gets better penetration with the lower velocity closer to the 375HH speeds. You are right that with that much velocity solids are likely the only way to go, and I would bet you will still bend some of them as well!
 
Posts: 1261 | Location: Rural Wa. St. & Ellisras RSA | Registered: 06 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Hey Stuntpilot2,

Did you have to hock that F-18 you're sitting in to finance this kick-ass safari... troll

Just jack'n with you! (from another Texas boy!)

Great stuff Fly-boy!

Jeff
 
Posts: 2554 | Registered: 23 January 2005Reply With Quote
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SP2: Personally i think the whole flat nose bullet stuff is way overblown. I'd stick with RNs as they fed more reliably. jorge


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Posts: 6974 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
shoot the 450X bullets nearly exclusive from my 458 Lott at 2250-2300 fps and they are a serious force for anything alive. At 2600fps the bullets are just not able to perform as designed. Saeed has found this with his 375 wildcat cartrigde. He actually gets better penetration with the lower velocity closer to the 375HH speeds.


JJHACK,

Sounds like we sing off the same hymnsheet. beer

When I say things like this, Gerard Schultz accuses me of not knowing how expanding solids are supposed to work ... bla bla bla ...

That means you also know as little as me ... inexperienced and incapable of making correct observations .... bla bla bla ...

Well what can I say ... hope all AR readers read your post so the penny can drop for them too !!!

Take care buddy
Chris Bekker
 
Posts: 656 | Location: RSA | Registered: 03 December 2004Reply With Quote
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Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Gerard,

Gerard when you say .... "You once again imply that all bullets of similar construction perform in the same manner terminally."

You are dead wrong and you are jumping to incorrect conclusions again as you always do. The Barnes-X bullet have stronger petals than your HV bullet and will not come off as easily as yours. I hope you can resite this dicussion that we have had earlier, as your HV bullet has a bigger hole in it than the Barnes-X, not so? Red Face

JJHACK was hinting that petals came off at higher velocities, and as a result, perform worse. That is the real issue that you seem to ignore. I am not dragging him into my discussion with you, I merely agree with him, but you are welcome to start a war with him, because you cling to the philosophy that the petals must come off on HV bullets and that is how you want them to behave. I disagree with that view. I belive that the impact velocity must be such that the petals must be retained, ie the threshold strength of the bullet must not be exceeded.

When you say ... "Higher speed, given the same bullet, results in less penetration. This is a given, why do you pretend that I take you to task for that."

Well I am glad we finally agree on this, as I had to labour this point with you by hammering the field results of Dr Ashby into your head. It just took a long time for you to accept that. Thank God that is over. thumb

I am not tageting you as a manufacturer of bullets, I refer to you argumentative attitude by confusing issues and always putting another spin on things. thumbdown

You are the last one to lecture me on lying and cheating. I nearly had to pull all your teeth to convince you about the the BC and SF issues - convenient memory loss (CML) or complete stubborness? Wink

Oh, before I forget thanks for your answer on the 1-inch tubes on the Pecar scopes. (You onbaatsugtige bydra word waardeer), but you stopped short ... is it any better than the Zeiss Conquest? Perhaps you do not have the experience hence your silence. (You should actually have known this before your birth)

jump

Chris Bekker
 
Posts: 656 | Location: RSA | Registered: 03 December 2004Reply With Quote
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The amount of knowledge and first hand experience on this board is staggering. And, not surprisingly, when boundary layers at the edges of the "commonly known and acknowledged" are approached on any topic the discussions can risk changing tone. After having personally learned some great tidbits from this series of postings already, I'd hate to see the topic become.....



Big Grin
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Stuntpilot,
The only change I would make is I would use flat nose solids on Elephant and Rhino. Sooner or later any hollow point will give you a bad situation to deal with on these big animals...

I had old George Hoffmans Custom 460 Wby on a Kimber prsentations rifle NO. 1, until he made me give it back bawling, and it was a nice rifle...I tell you that a Bridger flat nose solid will make two holes in as many elephants as you can line up in one day.... clap

I suggest you try and get some North Fork cup points and give them a try in that hi velocity rifle, they should be simply awesome...


Ray Atkinson
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Posts: 33746 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
Stuntpilot,
The only change I would make is I would use flat nose solids on Elephant and Rhino. Sooner or later any hollow point will give you a bad situation to deal with on these big animals...

I had old George Hoffmans Custom 460 Wby on a Kimber prsentations rifle NO. 1, until he made me give it back <img src="http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de//bawling.gif" alt="bawling" width="21" height="16"><!--graemlin::bawling:-->, and it was a nice rifle...I tell you that a Bridger flat nose solid will make two holes in as many elephants as you can line up in one day.... clap

I suggest you try and get some North Fork cup points and give them a try in that hi velocity rifle, they should be simply awesome...


Ray,
Where do you usually get your North Fork Cup Points?

Thanks,
techmogul
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stuntpilot2:

Ray,
Where do you usually get your North Fork Cup Points?

Thanks,
techmogul


I don't think Ray is posting any more these days. You can get North Fork Cup Points directly from North Fork Bullets. Check the "Pricing" link.

NF 450-grain .458 (click picture to get larger view)(note that this is an older model that has since been re-designed):


 
Posts: 8535 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Amazing hunt.

How many of us will ever kill a Rhino?

Stunt Pilot was lucky he was shooting Barnes X for his "soft," since it was up to the job once his FMJ's were stolen.

Pictured here is 450 grain like he shot recovered in 5 gallon water buckets with fractured X petals.



I am also pleased to see the Barnes X he recovered from Big 5 look so similar to those in my 450 Dakota fired into 5 gallon water buckets. The darn things really do predict bullet behavior.



Pictured 400, 450 and 500 grain Barnes X at 2700 fps, 2500 fps, 2350 fps.

It is not hard to see why the bullet on the left had more penetration than the heavier ones middle and right. Much less frontal area to overcome.

You have to have alot more weight retention to make up for that much difference in FA.



Know before you go! Here is all you need to predict how your favorite SP will look when you dig it out of your buffalo. Fun too!

Andy



Andy
 
Posts: 1278 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 16 January 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
Amazing hunt.

How many of us will ever kill a Rhino?

Stunt Pilot was lucky he was shooting Barnes X for his "soft," since it was up to the job once his FMJ's were stolen.

Pictured here is 450 grain like he shot recovered in 5 gallon water buckets with fractured X petals.



I am also pleased to see the Barnes X he recovered from Big 5 look so similar to those in my 450 Dakota fired into 5 gallon water buckets. The darn things really do predict bullet behavior.



Pictured 400, 450 and 500 grain Barnes X at 2700 fps, 2500 fps, 2350 fps.

It is not hard to see why the bullet on the left had more penetration than the heavier ones middle and right. Much less frontal area to overcome.

You have to have alot more weight retention to make up for that much difference in FA.



Know before you go! Here is all you need to predict how your favorite SP will look when you dig it out of your buffalo. Fun too!

Andy



Andy


Andy,
Great pictures! Well done. What's your best guess for how far each of the three different bullets penetrated?

Best Regards,
Stuntpilot
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Stunt Pilot,

Here is retained weight, expanded diameter, penetration in inches and permanant wound cavity (FA x penetration).



Modest damage to buckets, due to low FA. These were 450 gr TSX.

400 grain Barnes X, 283 grains, .53 caliber, 46 inches penetration, 10.3 cubic inches permanant wond cavity.

450 grain Barnes X, 367 grains, .71 caliber, 36 inches penetraiton, 14.2 cubic inches.

450 grain Tripple Shock, 359 grains (it was going 75 fps faster than X), .602 caliber, 44 inches penetration (notice difference FA makes between X and TSX), 12.5 cubic inches.

500 grain Barnes X, 461 grains, .45 x .83 diameter (asymetrical), 35 inches penetration, 18.x cubic inches. (Hard to calculate FA of a bullet w two propellors, so htis may be optomistic).

All from 450 Dakota, 22 inch barrel, max loads.

Andy
 
Posts: 1278 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 16 January 2004Reply With Quote
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Just finished working up and testing 460 WBY loads with 500g African Grand Slams. Velocity is very consistent at just over the 2600fps Weatherby gets with their own 500g solid factory loads. No pressure signs. Accuracy is good.

I'm wondering why this bullet never became more successful (beyond it's high cost). It seems to have many of the characteristics experienced posters on this board have highlighted as effective on DG (flat nose, good sectional density etc).

Anyone have any recent field experience with the 500g AGS from any 458/460 platform?
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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StuntPilot,

It seem you are talking about the discontinued tungsten cored bullet.

I have read that they were a favorite of PH's using 458wm's due to their short length for weight. I have read good things about them. I have read of one insince of the tungsten core leaving the jacket.

You might want to ask a member here, Will, who has used them in 458wm for elephants and still uses them in 416 for elephants.

Speer is owned by Federal and Federal bought Trophy Bonded. In fact the advertisement reads "Speer's Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer designed by Jack Carter..." Seems Federal settled on the Sledgehammer instead of the AGS.

JPK


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Posts: 4881 | Location: Chevy Chase, Md. | Registered: 16 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Thanks for sharing!!!
 
Posts: 2827 | Location: Seattle, in the other Washington | Registered: 26 April 2006Reply With Quote
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Elephant: 450g Barnes X at 47 yards from 460 Weatherby. First/only shot a side brain as bull was turning towards us. Bullet recovered from under the skin just forward of the far side ear slit. 82% weight retention with all four petals fully expanded, but also partially sheared off. Head of expanded X bullet 155% original bullet diameter.


Hallo Stunt Pilot,

from Your, Figures given an the Weatherby information about the Cartridge, I calculate 47,7 cm Flesh penetraion or 10,5 cm Bone penetration. Obviously an Elefants head contains both, so the Result is not too astonishing. Would You know to tell how much Bone the sideways shot penetrated?

LutzM
 
Posts: 95 | Location: Europe | Registered: 21 May 2004Reply With Quote
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LutzM,
The shot traversed the cranial cavity diagonally, entering left rear and exiting right front. It was stopped by the skin on the far side. A little hard to be precise after the fact, but I'd imagine the bone penetration was on the order of two feet. Most of this was the gel filled honeycomb bone as opposed to the more solid stuff found in the femurs.
Hope that's helpful.

Stuntpilot
 
Posts: 214 | Location: Texas | Registered: 24 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Back when Speer loaded their Nitrex cartridges, I used the 160 grain Grand Slam for Deer, Elk & Bear in my .280/7mm Express. It performed to perfection even at extreme range on all of the above. All I have now are lots of cases and 100 GS bullets that await my reloading; if I ever get around to it. LDK


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