.577 -3inch NE round lacks penetration in Elelphant Frontal brain shot

04 August 2008, 00:05

dakota45056

In the Sept 08 issue of Guns & Ammo, Boddington recalls that Bert Jones fired two rounds from his .577 - (double Rifle) in the frontal brain of two Botswana elephant bulls which had little efect, and certainly not the knockout power that Taylor suggests in his book.

Assuming that these are accurate frontal brain shots on the two elephant leads one to believe that the penetration and Taylor's Knockout Value were not working. Taylor maintains that a .577-3 inch has 126.7 K-O points with a full loading of a 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps.

Jones, on the other hand, propelled a 650 gr solid at less than 1900 fps and another at 1950 fps for a K-O value of 104.

My question is if I load Woodleigh 750 gr FMJ solids at 2280 fps, wouldn't I get the necessary penetration for the frontal brain elephant shot?????

Anyone have any experience with this??

Was hoping that my new 585 AHR would be my next elephant rifle!!!

Dak

04 August 2008, 00:24

465H&H

Why do you assume that the 577 had inadequate penetration? Were the bullet paths traced through the head to confirm that there was insufficient penetration? If you hit an elephant 3 or 4 inches above the brain with a 470 or above such as the 460 Weatherby you have sufficient penetration but a high miss will not knock it out and probably won't even knock it down.

As to your question on loading the 577 with 750 grain Woodleighs to over 2,200 fps you would have enough penetration for any animal that walks the earth.

465H&H

04 August 2008, 00:30

MJines

Well, I hesitate to call bull dump since I obviously was not there, but I would be highly suspicious. In June I used a .500 NE on five elephants in Zimbabwe. Four were frontal brain shots. The loads were 570 grain Woodleighs at 2070 fps. They all dropped to the shot, including one that clearly missed the brain high and to the right. It thumped the heck out of them. That load had a KOV of approximately 85 as I recall. Only thing I can figure is maybe it had something to do with the type of solids being used. I am still a big believer in Taylor's KOV.

04 August 2008, 03:14

AfricanHunter

quote:
Originally posted by dakota45056:
In the Sept 08 issue of Guns & Ammo, Boddington recalls that Bert Jones fired two rounds from his .577 - (double Rifle) in the frontal brain of two Botswana elephant bulls which had little efect, and certainly not the knockout power that Taylor suggests in his book.

Assuming that these are accurate frontal brain shots on the two elephant leads one to believe that the penetration and Taylor's Knockout Value were not working. Taylor maintains that a .577-3 inch has 126.7 K-O points with a full loading of a 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps.

Jones, on the other hand, propelled a 650 gr solid at less than 1900 fps and another at 1950 fps for a K-O value of 104.

My question is if I load Woodleigh 750 gr FMJ solids at 2280 fps, wouldn't I get the necessary penetration for the frontal brain elephant shot?????

Anyone have any experience with this??

Was hoping that my new 585 AHR would be my next elephant rifle!!!

Dak

There is a big differnce between 750 grain 577's at 2050 fps and 650 grain at 1900 or 1950.

04 August 2008, 04:10

Andy

Mike,

Who were you hunting with and where?

Andy

04 August 2008, 04:37

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
Who were you hunting with and where?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/782106388

04 August 2008, 05:56

PAHunter

In that article Boddinngton states... Quote " I have seen mutiple elephants instantly turn away from a frontal brain shot from my .450-3-inch 500- grain bullet at 2,150 FPS (65 K-O) factor."

In his experience he feels the 450- 3 inch Nitro Express loads don't penetrate as well as a .416 at faster speeds and shoots a bullet of smaller caliber, thus less resistance.

It was ironic, I was sitting in my reading chair, reading the Guns & Ammo article on Punch & Penetration by Craog Boddington and what comes on TV but Tracks Across Africa, and the very hunt that he shoots a Botswana Bull Ele. the very one he draws some of his statements from.

What I think it boils down to is that Craig feels a bullet of substance, a solid, should have a muzzle velocity of at least 2100 FPS MV or better before you attemp a frontal brain shot.

Besides being one of my all time favorite authors, he has bagged 12 Ele's so far. It sounds like good advice to me.

The show and the article were great.

Regards Jim P.

04 August 2008, 06:18

Will

All the "feelings" aside from whatever quarter they come, any slug, and especially the likes of the 577, has to have velocity to have penetration. The 577 NE traveling at nominal velocities will not have the penetration of the 416's. Duh!

Just because a 577 will kick the crap out of you doesn't correlate to penetration. Downloading the 577 or 500 or whatever to low, comfortable velocity so that the typical, unknowing comments result in "the recoil isn't that bad," only makes the situation worse. The only reason a 500 or 470 or whatever will penetrate is because the velocity is kept high.

It was the reason the old bore guns were hell on energy but piss poor on penetration. Read my book or Alpin's on Penetration Index.

And you have to be close to the brain otherwise a bull will essentially ignore it some of the time. Turning an elephant is entirely different than braining it. I doubt that most any load in a 577 will not turn one most all the time, but it is never guaranteed, no matter what.

04 August 2008, 06:19

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by dakota45056:

Jones, on the other hand, propelled a 650 gr solid at less than 1900 fps and another at 1950 fps for a K-O value of 104.

That is NOT an ele load. The .577 ele load is 750 grains at 2050 fps.

04 August 2008, 06:24

Jim Manion

Wonder if the .577 in question was of the "tropical" variety made primarily for use in India. They were not made for the full power loads of Africa. Great for tigers, but not exactly the right stuff for elephants.

And the sacrifice with a .577 shooting 650 grain bullets is not only in velocity but also in sectional density. And SD is a factor in penetration. A 650 grain .583 caliber has a sectional density of .273 while its 750 grain counterpart has an SD of .315, qhich, incidently, is almost identical to the SD of a .510 caliber 570 grain bullet (.313).

The .416 400 grainer has an SD of .330 and the .450 calibers shooting a 500 grain bullet an SD of .341.

So, it would be no surprise that one observed a .416 and a .450 caliber as having better penetration than the 650 grain .577, particularly when the 577 was at a velocity under 2000 fps.

To use that example as an indictment of the .577 as an elephant killer is more than a little disengenous. Replace the 400 grain bullet in a 450 caliber with a 400 grain bullet and slow it down to 1800 fps, and you'll have some "surprises" there as well.

04 August 2008, 06:31

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
There is a big differnce between 750 grain 577's at 2050 fps and 650 grain at 1900 or 1950.

My thoughts exactly!

04 August 2008, 06:39

Showbart

If he was hunting with anything less than a factory (Kynoch spec/full house African) 577NE load then I'm rooting for the Ele.

04 August 2008, 07:08

Michael Robinson

Poor workmen often blame their tools.

04 August 2008, 08:45

ivan carter

hi men,
i was actually guiding the trip ... the ammo was underpowered and when we got home we chronographed the load and it was 1820.

the bullets were both recovered and their penetration was less than 9 inches into the skull , they would have still had to penetrate a further 8 or so9 at the angle they were fired to get to the brain ...the second shot was not well placed but still , even if it was it would have not been sufficient .

"""My question is if I load Woodleigh 750 gr FMJ solids at 2280 fps, wouldn't I get the necessary penetration for the frontal brain elephant shot?????"""
the action will not withstand a load that produces a velocity of over 2050.... neither will your shoulder ...

the ammo was superior , and so then i called larry ,and he said he had used the load statistics and had not had a 577 in his hands , so i sent my rifle up there for him to use when building my load ... he got it up to 2040, with a 7850 grain bullet ... kicks like a mule but i certainly cant afford not to have the correct penetration.

i have killed many many bulls on a frontal shot with my .450 3 1/4 , its got a hot load and i had it pushed to 2440, however even with the hornady factory ammo i have killed two with frontal brain shots and no problem ...

04 August 2008, 08:55

Saeed

Eric shot a an elephant with the 577 T.Rex, and the bullet did not penetrate on a frontal shot!

He might read this and give us all the details.

I think we should all bear in mind that every now and then, we will get a bullet-caliber combination that would not do what it is supposed to.

Or even what it had had with the 9 previous shots.

04 August 2008, 10:05

boom stick

Excuse my ignorance but wont a 750 grain flat nose solid (.313 SD) @ 2050 penetrate more than enough??? The problem is with softs right? If not pump up the volume to 800 grains and 2400 fps.

Seems like a job for a bolt action 577

400 grain .416 = .330 SD
800 grain .585 = .334 SD

Macifej... there might be a need for a heavy .585

04 August 2008, 11:44

els

Just my 2 cents with three ele and two buff with old Kynoch 577/750/100 load it is double distilled two fisted killing son of a bitch on both ends. But what do I know?

04 August 2008, 12:14

Rusty

quote:
Originally posted by els:
Just my 2 cents with three ele and two buff with old Kynoch 577/750/100 load it is double distilled two fisted killing son of a bitch on both ends. But what do I know?

You tell 'em, ELS.

I saw a part Boddington hunting Elephant in Botswana on the DSC show this past weekend. It sure looked like a 450/400 3 inch he was using? Elephant went down, Thud!

Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member
"I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends."
----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836
"I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson
Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”

04 August 2008, 16:13

Will

quote:
Originally posted by ivan carter:
"""My question is if I load Woodleigh 750 gr FMJ solids at 2280 fps, wouldn't I get the necessary penetration for the frontal brain elephant shot?????"""
the action will not withstand a load that produces a velocity of over 2050.... neither will your shoulder ...

the ammo was superior , and so then i called larry ,and he said he had used the load statistics and had not had a 577 in his hands , so i sent my rifle up there for him to use when building my load ... he got it up to 2040, with a 7850 grain bullet ... kicks like a mule but i certainly cant afford not to have the correct penetration.

i have killed many many bulls on a frontal shot with my .450 3 1/4 , its got a hot load and i had it pushed to 2440, however even with the hornady factory ammo i have killed two with frontal brain shots and no problem ...

Ivan,

Not sure that I don't need an interpretor or what you mean by all this.

Somebody said that 18XX fps for the rifle was okay but 2050 fps wasn't safe? I wonder how whoever it was figured that out. Did someone have pressure data? Did it shoot loose at some point in the past with a 750 gr. bullet at 2050?

Can't figure out who Larry is, but at some point the velocity was 2040 fps? How did it get down to 1820 fps?

You do or have shot 2440 fps loads with the 480 gr./450 round? I find this most entertaining. The self-professed experts around here would at the least call this heresy and at the minimum would be running at pressures, much above the CIP standard, such that your Heym should blow up into millions of tiny bits.

It appears that anything above the CIP standard is prohibited, according to some observers here, regardless of whether higher pressures have anything to do with being "safe"! Of course the only way that pressures are inferred is that the bullet is not driven about the "standard" or "nominal" velocity though no one really knows what the actual chamber pressure might be in their particular rifle.

You have also proven my point in my previous post. One can have all the bullet weight and big bore they can muster but without the required bullet velocity it doesn't mean much penetration wise.

You are definitely CHEATING driving your bullets at 2440 fps.

No wonder you have lots of penetration. I am driving my 500 gr. 470 bullets at 2200 fps and probably will rot in hell for such sacrilege.

Can't help but figure that black magic and voodoo sometimes abound here. Are you sure this site isn't originating from New Orleans?

Take care.

04 August 2008, 19:04

Clayman

Not to call into question the integrity of the subjects, but I can't ever remember hearing "lack of penetration" being used to describe a .577.

04 August 2008, 19:05

465H&H

There were 4 different 577 cartridges not counting black powder or nitro for black powder loads. In the nitro configuration there were two for the 2/3/4" length and two for the 3" length cartridges. In the 2 3/4" length they were a 90 grains of cordite load with a 650 grain bullet at 1,950 fps and a 90 grains of cordite load with the 750 grain bullet at 1,800 fps. In the 3" case it was 90 grains of cordite load with the 650 grain bullet at 1,950 fps and a 100 grains of corite with a 750 grain bullet at 2,050 fps. All were out of a 28" barrel.

Rifles were regulated for a particular load. The 650 grain loads were primarily designed for tiger and lion hunting. According to Taylor the 650 grain load had good stopping power, KOV = 104 but penetration was iffy on frontal shots on elephant.

Ivan!

The 1,800 fps load should never ever be used on elephant. I don't know why the hunter even considered using it on elephants unles he was really ignorant of ballistics.

465H&H

465H&H

04 August 2008, 21:40

Gator1

Ivan

I would be interested in what type and brand of rifle you are shooting your 2400fps loads with.

Did you need to reregulate it?

04 August 2008, 22:26

oupa

Sounds like a case of measuring a caliber's potential by the hole in the muzzle. Also dangerously assumed is accuracy of the shot, with this as an unknown no reliable conclusions can be drawn.
As for velocity, bullet weight and construction (including shape/diameter/length) you simply cannot ignore the laws of physics. Doing so in the DG arena will not get you a ticket but it could get your's punched!

04 August 2008, 23:44

dirklawyer

Here we are again with the equation that has worked for close to a century on elephant bulls shot from any angle.

Equation: 45 caliber or larger + solid bullet of 500grains or larger (SD minimum of 300) + 2050-2200fps = plenty of penetration for frontal brain shots on any bull.

Dirk

04 August 2008, 23:57

dakota45056

Thanks all for all the great input. Is the AR a Forum great or what!!

No wonder there was such minor peneration if the velocity was as low as 1820 fps as Ivan Carter states. Ivan stated that my loads would be harmful to the action and impossible to shoot. I think he is referring to a large bore double rifle as I shoot the 585 AHR (.577) with 750 gr Woodleigh FMJ solids in a magazine rifle at 2280 Fps with no problem. Now the rifle is custom made by AHR with a GMA action and is 14 lbs. Possibly the large bore doubles (.577, 600's and above) are a real bear to shoot above 2150 fps, especialy if good stocking practices are used, per Robgumbuilder who is no stranger to a little recoil. Maybe the high velocity loads in larger doubles could made it shoot off-face sooner and are a bitch to shoulder.
Another point brought up was that the big bores should not be down loaded for comfort when hunting ele or large game.
However,the Boddington article really startled me as I felt my loads should have penetration and then find out other readings-occurences have also produced some poor results (penetration) with elephant by a 600 NE and even a 700, all doubles. Now we know or at least guess that these loads were too low in velocity.
Apreciate the discussion--helps a lot.

Dak

05 August 2008, 00:20

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Eric shot a an elephant with the 577 T.Rex, and the bullet did not penetrate on a frontal shot!

He might read this and give us all the details.

I think we should all bear in mind that every now and then, we will get a bullet-caliber combination that would not do what it is supposed to.

Or even what it had had with the 9 previous shots.

I cannot speak of LVEric's incident with the .577 Alphin, but my experience with elephant and buff using the 585 Nyati with both Woodleigh solids and TCCI brass solids at 2250 fps was only 3 to 3.5 feet of penetration on body shots. Drop down to the 500 NE (with FN solids) and penetration was 5 to 6 feet.

05 August 2008, 04:20

Frank Beller

A little different twist to this issue: Opinions, please - what do you think is the BEST of the double rifle calibers if the criteria is most energy & best penetration ? You can only own ONE double ..... what's it going to be ?

05 August 2008, 05:47

mehulkamdar

Dak45056,

Are you going to be at Lodi this year for the International Match or will you be in Africa then? I'll look forward to meeting you as always to drool over the new guns you have every year.

Good hunting!

05 August 2008, 07:02

dirklawyer

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
My experience with elephant and buff using the 585 Nyati with both Woodleigh solids and TCCI brass solids at 2250 fps was only 3 to 3.5 feet of penetration on body shots. Drop down to the 500 NE (with FN solids) and penetration was 5 to 6 feet.

Dan, of course the GS solid is a great body penetrater, the best in my opinion. As you well know there is that combination of velocity, SD of bullet, bullet weight and diameter which equal great penetration. The 500 has that inherent combination, it will out penetrate most other calibers (I'm not talking about a 375 or 416 which are not stopping calibers IMO), but the 500 is not sub-par to any stopping caliber when it comes to penetration. The 505 Gibbs or the 500 Jeffery are of course better because of the velocity factor but not by much.

Dirk

05 August 2008, 07:09

dirklawyer

quote:
Originally posted by Frank Beller:
A little different twist to this issue: Opinions, please - what do you think is the BEST of the double rifle calibers if the criteria is most energy & best penetration ? You can only own ONE double ..... what's it going to be ?

Frank, IMO the 500 N.E. is the choice for owning one double but I only want to hunt elephant when it comes to the big five.

06 August 2008, 02:09

ivan carter

quote:
Ivan,

Not sure that I don't need an interpretor or what you mean by all this.

Somebody said that 18XX fps for the rifle was okay but 2050 fps wasn't safe? I wonder how whoever it was figured that out. Did someone have pressure data? Did it shoot loose at some point in the past with a 750 gr. bullet at 2050?

Can't figure out who Larry is, but at some point the velocity was 2040 fps? How did it get down to 1820 fps?

You do or have shot 2440 fps loads with the 480 gr./450 round? I find this most entertaining. The self-professed experts around here would at the least call this heresy and at the minimum would be running at pressures, much above the CIP standard, such that your Heym should blow up into millions of tiny bits.

It appears that anything above the CIP standard is prohibited, according to some observers here, regardless of whether higher pressures have anything to do with being "safe"! Of course the only way that pressures are inferred is that the bullet is not driven about the "standard" or "nominal" velocity though no one really knows what the actual chamber pressure might be in their particular rifle.

You have also proven my point in my previous post. One can have all the bullet weight and big bore they can muster but without the required bullet velocity it doesn't mean much penetration wise.

You are definitely CHEATING driving your bullets at 2440 fps. No wonder you have lots of penetration. I am driving my 500 gr. 470 bullets at 2200 fps and probably will rot in hell for such sacrilege.

Can't help but figure that black magic and voodoo sometimes abound here. Are you sure this site isn't originating from New Orleans?

Take care.

bill ,
sorry about the confusion , what i was saying is that the action of the rifle wouldnt stand a velocity OVER 2050 ...larry ,who owns superior got it up to 2150 and the action was pushed back into the wood and froze up ...at 2050 it was fine ... his loads previously chronographed far lower he was just going on "book values" without having a rifle in his hands to regulate the loads with .

my .450 3 1/4 is shooting a 480 grain bullett , i had some ammo from WR in germany loaded up , they chronographed (by me ) 2440 ..kick like a mile but awesome penetration ...you are right, the experts say its impossible and i am fine with that !!

i am getting very good at rebuilding my action between shots

you are absoulutely spot on with your aggrement of huge calibre and not enough velocity ...wayne williamson had a client who i wont name , shot a buff in the back of the head as it ran off with his 577 ...wayne removed the bullett with his FINGERS !! wayne is a great guy and no bullshitter ...the bullett stopped on the bone ...

when we gonna kill some zambezi ladies together with our impossibly hot loads !

06 August 2008, 02:10

ivan carter

quote:
A little different twist to this issue: Opinions, please - what do you think is the BEST of the double rifle calibers if the criteria is most energy & best penetration ? You can only own ONE double ..... what's it going to be ?

_________________

.450 3 and a quarter ... i haver shot a lot of buffalo as they ran off and had the bullet go end to end ...from one hip to the opposing shoulder.

also had several occasions where the bullet on a frontal brain shot on large bulls has also broken two or three of the vertebrae.

06 August 2008, 02:30

N E 450 No2

Frank Beller

To answer your question, if I was going to pick one double for a lot of elephant hunting I would pick my 450 No2.

I have brain shot, and body shot, elephants with 480 Woodleigh Solids at 2150fps and brain shot them with the 450 North Fork Flat point Solid at 2200fps.

It gives plenty of penetration, low recoil, fast recovery for the second shot, low chamber pressure and long gun life.

06 August 2008, 02:49

Frank Beller

It seems there is a growing argument based on some of the experiences related in this thread that the .577 rifles are less than adequate for dangerous game. Can anyone relate any stories where the .577 DID it's job & penetrated properly ? I know I've seen Jeff Rann kill a few elephants with frontal brain shots with his H&H .577.

06 August 2008, 03:25

Robgunbuilder

I read the Boddington article and thought, now thats odd never heard of the .577 lacking penetration. First thought was light load and/or poor shooting. I recently tested my .600Ok with my 730gr FN superpenetrator at 2650fps against a .500NE and a .470NE both firing 530 and 500gr similar FN design solid BRASS FN bullets at 2150fps in the only medium I have available OAK LOG SECTIONS. The .600Ok penetrated 62 inches and the 500NE went 45 inches with the 470NE going 38.Somehow I dont think any of these loads will bounce of a Ele's head.

06 August 2008, 21:45

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by dirklawyer:
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Beller:
A little different twist to this issue: Opinions, please - what do you think is the BEST of the double rifle calibers if the criteria is most energy & best penetration ? You can only own ONE double ..... what's it going to be ?

Frank, IMO the 500 N.E. is the choice for owning one double but I only want to hunt elephant when it comes to the big five.

Given the way the question was asked, I agree with Dirk. If it is the best for the biggest, then it will do a yoman's job on anything smaller!

If, however, I personally was wanting only one rifle to hunt everything,I hunt, and in my case that would be limited to Cape Buffalo, or an ocasional dry land Hippo, on the top end for all practical purposes, with maybe one or two ele, if that, then my choice would be a good 10 lb 450/400NE 3". I have a 470NE, and I'd rather have a 500NE, as long as I had a light double rifle as well, and I do so I'd keep my 9.3X74R for a second, and the 500NE for the top!

06 August 2008, 22:33

adrook

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
Who were you hunting with and where?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/782106388

quote:
All five elephant that I shot with the .500 dropped as if they had been pole axed. On two of the five we actually observed brain matter coming out of the ears. I am a believer in the .500.

Was that on frontal shots? Impressive.

06 August 2008, 22:35

Will

quote:
Given the way the question was asked, I agree with Dirk.

Just wait for Dirk to buy a 577 or 600 and then it will be the new messiah.

06 August 2008, 23:30

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by adrook:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
quote:
Originally posted by Andy:
Who were you hunting with and where?

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6321043/m/782106388

quote:
All five elephant that I shot with the .500 dropped as if they had been pole axed. On two of the five we actually observed brain matter coming out of the ears. I am a believer in the .500.

Was that on frontal shots? Impressive.

Yes sir. Nasty but true.

Here are the pictures of the two elephant. Both were one shot, frontal brain shots. In both you can see the discharge from the ears.

07 August 2008, 06:31

ROSCOE

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Given the way the question was asked, I agree with Dirk.

Just wait for Dirk to buy a 577 or 600 and then it will be the new messiah.

Or wait until we shoot 10 elephant, write a book about it, and become an expert

******************************************************************
R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
******************************************************************
We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?'