.404 Jefferey vs. .416 Rigby

05 February 2006, 05:42

I'm trying to educate myself a little on the .404 Jefferey. What is the draw of the Jefferey over the Rigby?

.423 vs. .416 size bullet?
Smaller action hence handier size rifle?
Less recoil but just as deadly on DG?

I'm intrigued since CZ has come out with one.
I would think that a 400 grain bullet at 2150-2200fps would be limited to shorter range (say less than 150yds) shooting as a DG specialist.
The Rigby on the other hand could be loaded up or down and give that Jefferey "feel."

What say ye o masters of powder and lead?

05 February 2006, 07:14

Shumba

The 404 Jeffery can easily be loaded to 2,400 fps in a modern (CZ) action. Then you have a greater bullet cross section at a slight sacrifice to sectional density. I don't think that you or the animal could see any difference given similar shot placement.

The early Jeffery loads (2,150 - 2,200) provide less recoil, but you could do the same with the Rigby or the 416 Remington for that matter.

It seems like many people are really hot on the 450/400 for buffalo lately (Searcy's new rifle) and that is essentially a .411 bullet at 2,150 in a Searcy and probably just under 2,100 in most older double rifles.

I think the lower velocity and subsequent lower recoil makes it more manageable and therefore easier to place the bullet in the right spot. A bullet in the right spot is always most effective. I have not looked up my ballistic charts, but I bet a properly sighted 400 grain bullet at 2,150 doesn't give up too much to the same bullet at 2,400 when it comes to shooting game at 200 yards and under.

Tim

05 February 2006, 08:24

fredj338

Tim is correct. Another issue is the rifle action size. WHile the CZ is the same for either, you can get a .404j into a Mauser or M70. The Rigby requires a bigger action. You can also get the .416Rigby up to .416wby vel. but for the recoil you get, might as well have a .458Lott.

05 February 2006, 08:29

RIP

Several years ago we went round and round about this in the big bore forum.

It is like arguing the superiority of the the .458 Lott over the .450 Watts.

They are equals and the only meaningful differences are nostalgic ideas of cowboys versus indians.

Pick the side you want to play on.

Everyone ought to have at least one of each, and take both of them on safari as a redundant pair for backup.

Flip a coin each day as to what you want to hunt with.

Both can fling spitzers of 340 to 350 grains at 2700 fps.

Both can hurl the 400 grainers at 2400 fps and more.

My modern rifles in each caliber do.

No significant difference. Just an emotional hangup if there is any perceived advantage of one over the other by the user.

05 February 2006, 08:54

surestrike

I am having a custom Mauser built as we speak in .404. Why not the Rigby? Becauase .404 Jefferys just sounded cooler.

What RIP said 100%

05 February 2006, 13:38

To hard to pick I love both !! have custom M98 .404 J in the works and own a cz .416 Rigby I would not be without either !!

05 February 2006, 17:36

phurley5

ScottW ----- Recently while experimenting with my .416 Rigby (#1 Ruger) I got 2729 fps out of a 400 grain Hornady RN with no signs of pressure. I am one of those speed nuts and when I bought the Rigby I considered the Weatherby, now I remember why I got the Rigby, I have the utility of both in one. I also recall that the Weatherby was the Rigby with belt added, if I remember correctly.

Good shooting.

05 February 2006, 18:20

Mitchell Attlewood

quote:
Originally posted by Shumba:
The 404 Jeffery can easily be loaded to 2,400 fps in a modern (CZ) action. Then you have a greater bullet cross section at a slight sacrifice to sectional density. I don't think that you or the animal could see any difference given similar shot placement.

The early Jeffery loads (2,150 - 2,200) provide less recoil, but you could do the same with the Rigby or the 416 Remington for that matter.

It seems like many people are really hot on the 450/400 for buffalo lately (Searcy's new rifle) and that is essentially a .411 bullet at 2,150 in a Searcy and probably just under 2,100 in most older double rifles.

I think the lower velocity and subsequent lower recoil makes it more manageable and therefore easier to place the bullet in the right spot. A bullet in the right spot is always most effective. I have not looked up my ballistic charts, but I bet a properly sighted 400 grain bullet at 2,150 doesn't give up too much to the same bullet at 2,400 when it comes to shooting game at 200 yards and under.

Tim

You can load a .404 Jeffery WAYYYYYY past 2400 fps in a modern action, Montana, CZ, or other.

The original .404 ballistics are pure nostalgia in todays age. Certainly they can do the job but are easily surpassed.

05 February 2006, 19:40

Wink

I also solved the problem by buying one of each. My .404 Jeffery is a rebarrelled Model 70 (which I bought from fellow AR member NGarrett) and the .416 Rigby is a MacMillan stocked CZ 550 Magnum. Now all I need is a huge hunting budget so that I compare them side by side in the field.

05 February 2006, 20:18

ALF

quote:
The original .404 ballistics are pure nostalgia in todays age

BS !

05 February 2006, 20:31

Rusty

Nostalgia or no, the 404 Jeffery at 2150 FPS has killed more African game than most of us will ever see!

It is not required to wretch every last FPS out of a particular cartridge to reap the benefits of that round!

The two 404 Jeffery rifles that are being made for me will have the standing leaf regulated for 400 grains bullets at 2150.

Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
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05 February 2006, 20:38

fredj338

Mitchell, what are you running in your .404j that goes "wayyyy" past 2400fps w/ a 400gr bullet? Personnaly, if I want that much recoil I want biger bullets to go with. I'ld step to a Lott, oops been there done that & that's why I own a .404j.

05 February 2006, 22:22

RIP

The .416 Rigby is for Cowboys, the .404 Jeffery is for Indians.

I play on both sides of this Professional Small Boy Game, but I root for the Indians lately.

Hau cola! Hoka hey!

05 February 2006, 22:31

Nickudu

I can see where the trimmer, lighter overall result of the .404 based on a Mauser '98 is quite appealing to many, as is perhaps an edge in inherent functionality, provided by the case design. I wouldn't expect to see much difference in game taking ability, loaded to similar pressures. Both remain excellent choices, imho.

05 February 2006, 22:36

ALF

05 February 2006, 22:47

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
I can see where the trimmer, lighter overall result of the .404 based on a Mauser '98 is quite appealing to many, as is perhaps an edge in inherent functionality, provided by the case design. I wouldn't expect to see much difference in game taking ability, loaded to similar pressures. Both remain excellent choices, imho.

... And the .404 Jeffery will have less bolt thrust at a given pressure than the .416 Rigby ...

But, an M70 or a CZ 550 Magnum can easily handle max brass pressures from both, 60K psi is no sweat at all, so that is a NON-ISSUE too.

Only when getting into the .505 Gibbs head size do we need to keep the "Magnum Mauser Sporting Actions" down to 55K psi or less.

Those with old Mauser 98 (standard length opened up) .404 Jefferey rifles need to keep them down to 50 KPSI ... not much of a limitation on an old war pony.

Ditto Alf too.

However, the M70 Winchester .404 Jeffery with 340 grain North Forks at 2700 fps does make a nice African Sheep Rifle. Mr. Chadwick would understand.

06 February 2006, 00:38

Nickudu

Alf, Such are the practical advantages of the "Non-GunNut". Simply determine what's required and stick to it, devoting all available time and resources to the taking of game. Those able to do more are very fortunate individuals.

06 February 2006, 00:52

jorge

I agree with most here given all things equal, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. The 404 does have an advantage of a shorter, trimmer action, as the Rigby requires the true Magnum Action so in that regard, I'd go for a bigger caliber to take advantage of the longer action.

My Rigby is loaded to about 2400 fps and I feel very comfortable with it out to 250 yards or so. In my view the most practical of all the "low 40s" is the 416 Rem. Also, although I've never witnessed it, I believe that given the same projectile, say a TSX, Swift, etc, a 2700fps smack form a 416 has more effect than a 2400 fps impact. Can't prove it, but I'd bet on it. jorge

06 February 2006, 02:14

Mitchell Attlewood

quote:
Originally posted by fredj338:
Mitchell, what are you running in your .404j that goes "wayyyy" past 2400fps w/ a 400gr bullet? Personnaly, if I want that much recoil I want biger bullets to go with. I'ld step to a Lott, oops been there done that & that's why I own a .404j.

I've loaded mine up to 2625 fps, but found best accuracy in my rifle is with 400 grainers at right around 2500fps.
The only reason to shoot it this fast for me is simply becuase I enjoy it. The point was for comparison to the 416 rigby, one must take into consideration "loading up" potential.

06 February 2006, 02:22

ALF

06 February 2006, 03:25

surestrike

Mitchell please post some pics of your .404.

06 February 2006, 04:53

RIP

You guys sure you want to encourage Carmello to post those Varget loads again and pics of the rifle that has a fold-down rear sight drilled and tapped right over the chamber on the shank of the barrel?

06 February 2006, 04:56

surestrike

RIP,

NOOOooooooooo!!

Tell me it isn't true?!?

06 February 2006, 05:44

boom stick

hey surestrike...how are you healing???

06 February 2006, 07:09

ALF

06 February 2006, 08:08

RIP

Saeed's .404 Jeffery gets over 2600 fps with his 405 grain .423 caliber Walterhog bullet in a 14" twist Lothar Walther barrel that is 25.5" long, Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.680" COL. Admittedly this is long nose seating in a long magazine box, slightly longer than the usual COL for the .404 Jeffery, but if one used the shorter 400 grain Woodleigh or Swift bullets and kept the COL less than 3.600" in the usual .404 Jeffery, anyone can do much the same:

VVN550 90.0 grains: 2618 fps

H4350 96.0 grains: 2610 fps

Varget 86.0 grains: 2591 fps

VVN540 85.0 grains: 2588 fps

H4831SC 97 grains: 2487 fps

Anyone with a CZ 550 Magnum or Winchester M70 or other modern/strong action in .404 Jeffery can do very similar, if he can get all that powder in the case!

Saeed's driving banded Walterhog no doubt reduces pressures and ups the speed.

However, both Carmello and I were getting very equivalent results to Saeed's Varget loads using Woodleigh or Swift .423/400gr bullets, and correcting for my 24" barrel and Carmello's 26" barrel.

Not for pre-WWII "opened up" M98's.

Mine is an M70 with 10" twist McGowen stainless barrel.
I also have a CZ with 25" barrel of same McGowen 10" twist in chromemoly.

My SWAG on pressures with Varget in my rifle (COL variously 3.500" to 3.590"in an H&H length box):

Woodleigh 400grRNSP//81.0gr-Varget//2401fps//50,000psi

North Fork 380grSP//83.0gr-Varget//2528fps//55,000psi

North Fork 340grSP//88.0gr-Varget//2725fps//60,000psi

All safe in a modern/strong action.

06 February 2006, 08:31

ALF

06 February 2006, 08:39

RIP

Alf,
I SWAG it is close to 25 fps per inch in this case, with Varget in the .404 Jeffery, in the 22" to 26" barrel-chopping range. What do you think?

Of course I know there is a lot of variability between rifles ... bores, throats, chambers ... sloppy or tight, twist rates, lands and grooves, etc.

06 February 2006, 08:58

ALF

06 February 2006, 09:17

RIP

Alf,
I added some psi SWAG's above.

I actually have been through the Powley computer to guide my SWAG's.

Here is the best piece of pressure data I have, from the A-Square manual. Art is good with pressure data:

.404 Jeffery, .423 caliber
400 grain A-Square Dead Tough RNSP
brass case: A-Square
CCI-250 primer
RL-15 powder 80.0 grains
26" barrel
16.54" RH twist
.423" groove diameter
.412" bore diameter
6-groove, .141" groove width

Velocity: 2379 fps
Pressure: 49,800 psi, piezo

I cannot dazzle with brilliance nor baffle with BS. I can only supply one set of numbers.

The above RL-15 load should be absolute max for an opened up M98, and best to stay a few grains below that, eh? Add one grain to get the equivalent Varget max, eh?

Varget is slightly slower than RL-15.

I rest my case. Now I will sit back and get flamed, unless carmello can show up and divert the flame throwers.

06 February 2006, 09:22

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Saeed's .404 Jeffery gets over 2600 fps with his 405 grain .423 caliber Walterhog bullet in a 14" twist Lothar Walther barrel that is 25.5" long, Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.680" COL. Admittedly this is long nose seating in a long magazine box, slightly longer than the usual COL for the .404 Jeffery, but if one used the shorter 400 grain Woodleigh or Swift bullets and kept the COL less than 3.600" in the usual .404 Jeffery, anyone can do much the same:

VVN550 90.0 grains: 2618 fps

H4350 96.0 grains: 2610 fps

Varget 86.0 grains: 2591 fps

VVN540 85.0 grains: 2588 fps

H4831SC 97 grains: 2487 fps

Anyone with a CZ 550 Magnum or Winchester M70 or other modern/strong action in .404 Jeffery can do very similar, if he can get all that powder in the case!

Saeed's driving banded Walterhog no doubt reduces pressures and ups the speed.

However, both Carmello and I were getting very equivalent results to Saeed's Varget loads using Woodleigh or Swift .423/400gr bullets, and correcting for my 24" barrel and Carmello's 26" barrel.

Not for pre-WWII "opened up" M98's.

Mine is an M70 with 10" twist McGowen stainless barrel.
I also have a CZ with 25" barrel of same McGowen 10" twist in chromemoly.

My SWAG on pressures with Varget in my rifle (COL variously 3.500" to 3.590"in an H&H length box):

Woodleigh 400grRNSP//81.0gr-Varget//2401fps//50,000psi

North Fork 380grSP//83.0gr-Varget//2528fps//55,000psi

North Fork 340grSP//88.0gr-Varget//2725fps//60,000psi

All safe in a modern/strong action.

RIP what will the Varget 75 gr & 76 and 400 gr woodleigh give you pressure wise ??

I want more than the 71gr Varget 400 gr 2100 fps nitro loading but low low pressure for my pinky finger m98 .404

I am still mulling over all this from last time, I really want 2300 fps and 40k psi is this possible ?? and is 40k psi where I need to be in an opened up mauser 1909 ??

06 February 2006, 09:26

surestrike

quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
hey surestrike...how are you healing???

boom stick,

It's been an uphill battle but things are starting to look better now. I've got motion back but the strength is still very poor.The feeling is still gone in the left hand and forearm. The medicos are telling me that all the signs are pointing towards a good outcome.

Thanks for asking.

Greg

06 February 2006, 09:49

RIP

PC,
Your best hope is to use H4831 (Aussie made stuff, as is Varget, for Hodgdon).

I find 88 grains of H4831SC with 400 grain Woodleighs to fill the case well, no compression, and gives me about 2200 fps. Very accurate, very pleasant, and should be better than the gentlemanly killer of yore, which was 2125 fps supposedly. Many get faster velocities than I do with that powder, so rifles do vary quite a bit. That is probably close to 40,000 psi.

A 2300 fps/45,000 psi load might be 86 grains of H4350 (another Aussie powder). Art Alphin says his rifle gave 45,600 psi with that load and components as above. The 400 grain Woodleigh and 86 grains of H4350 gets me 2304 fps in my 24" barreled rifle. That is equivalent to the hottest modern factory load for use in old rifles. I would feel safe with that in a pinky finger Mauser and it is very accurate /uniform also. There is no better powder for temperature insensitivity than H4350 Extreme.

Until someone with real pressure measurements for your rifle comes along ...

06 February 2006, 09:51

RIP

surestrike,
Good to hear you are making progress and will be back on the warpath with a .404 Jeffery.

06 February 2006, 10:26

lawndart

With the modern powders mentioned the pressure curve starts to break exponentially upward anywhere from 57,000 to 61,000 psi. The curve is most forgiving with slow burners like H-4831, less so with medium burners like RL-15 and Varget. The fast burning powders are very unforgiving. The above assumes the same size bullet and equal load densities. Obviously in the real world this is mitigated by the fact that we use slow burners with more massive bullets and larger cases, etc.

The main point is that there is a safe range of loads in a given case/powder/bullet/rifle combination. The range of best accuracy is often in the upper middle end of this range, especially with slow burning powders. In the middle of the safe range you tend to have a linear relationship between increasing charge mass, pressure and velocity. That relationship breaks down with a vengeance at the upper end; ie a 1 grain increase in powder charge might cause a four or six thousand psi pressure increase. Add another grain and pressure might go up eight or twelve thousand psi.

"Modern" rifles can take the heat, can't they? When we "hot rod" a 404 we are living in the excess strength that engineers calculate into rifle construction for emergency and (what they plan on being) rare high pressure excursions.

Also, saw a 404 case in half lengthwise, then do the same with a 416 Weatherby case (thank you for a perfect example ALF) and a 338 Lapua Magnum case (perfect example times two, RIP). The 404 case was engineered to operate efficiently in a certain range of pressures. The 416 Weatherby and 338 Lapua Magnum were designed to run at higher pressures, and to deal with greater bolt thrust.

Do what you all will. I will keep my 404 loaded to a pedestrian level, and use the Lapua Brass for one of RIP's creations if I feel the need for speed.

Also, it might be interesting to cut up a 404 Dakota case. Perhaps it has more abuse tolerant web and wall thicknesses.

When in doubt, wire up a strain gauge.

LD

I'll dig out my results with increasing doses of 4350 and H-4831 in a 270 after I get unpacked from the upcoming move.