quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Not sure why the angst about Merkel doubles... mine has gotten a few elephant and buffalo over the years!

At least it ain’t a Sabatti!

Gotta get as many hot buttons in one thread as we can....

Mark Sullivan hunting buffalo with a .45-70 Sabatti in South Africa anyone?

Mark Sullivan and his clueless clients need a dozen 500 caliber shots and they still have to follow the farm tagged, named, buffalo for hours.

With a 45-70 they will need an ammo supply truck to follow them to kill a buffalo!

Once again, Dr. Pavlov's bell was rung!

To get back to the OP and away from bell ringing, my hunting buddy and I shot three bison with 45-70 rifles some years back. Used hard cast 405 gr. Oregon Trail Bullets (silver bullet) and they all exited resulting in dead bulls. I believe they weigh in at more than Cape Buffalo, so I would use my Marlin guide gun on buff if I did not have a .416 Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
To get back to the OP and away from bell ringing, my hunting buddy and I shot three bison with 45-70 rifles some years back. Used hard cast 405 gr. Oregon Trail Bullets (silver bullet) and they all exited resulting in dead bulls. I believe they weigh in at more than Cape Buffalo, so I would use my Marlin guide gun on buff if I did not have a .416 Rigby.

Bison and Cape buffalo aren’t even in the same ballpark. Cape buffalo a shorter, thicker, thicker-skinned and heavily constructed. Bison are much more narrowly constructed. I hunt with handguns exclusively, and have used hardcast bullets (at much more subdued velocities than the lever action is capable of) on large water buffalo. The results were mixed even though dead Bovine were always the result. Having said that, when it was time to hunt Cape buffalo, I opted for Punch bullets (brass bullet with a lead insert) as I wanted consistency and a bullet that won’t deform no matter what it hits.

Whitwort, I agree. Please tell me what cartridge and bullet weight you use on Cape buffalo. Thanks, Brian.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Whitwort, I agree. Please tell me what cartridge and bullet weight you use on Cape buffalo. Thanks, Brian.

Brian, I used a BFR in .500 JRH. The Punch bullets weigh 420 grains and run right around 1,400 fps at the muzzle. I shot him at 15 yards and got around seven feet of penetration on a chest shot. The bullet went all the way through the rumen. I wouldn’t opt for hardcast bullets on one as there are better options (even though they have been used successfully- my hunting partner on the trip was using the same caliber with cast bullets).

I'm a bit late to the party here, but a couple of years ago, a friend of mine took his Cape buffalo bull with a Sharps in 45-70 using a 535 grain paper patched bullet cast at 30-1 pushed by 70 grains of black powder at 1242 fps. He hit the bull square in the chest as it was facing him at 30 yards. The bull turned and ran about 60 yards and laid down, and a finishing shot was delivered from 20 yards which settled the matter. He has it on DVD, and I have a copy. He says that the only thing he would do different is use a harder alloy in the future. The bullet is a round nosed flat based bullet with a .240 meplat.

As I stated before they can and do work, but through an intensive testing program we started five years ago we call the “Bovine Bash,” we have had a significant number of failures using cast bullets. They just don’t hold up well to heavy support bones.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Whitwort, I agree. Please tell me what cartridge and bullet weight you use on Cape buffalo. Thanks, Brian.

Brian, I used a BFR in .500 JRH. The Punch bullets weigh 420 grains and run right around 1,400 fps at the muzzle. I shot him at 15 yards and got around seven feet of penetration on a chest shot. The bullet went all the way through the rumen. I wouldn’t opt for hardcast bullets on one as there are better options (even though they have been used successfully- my hunting partner on the trip was using the same caliber with cast bullets).

Max, I somehow missed this story. Where was it published?

April issue of American Hunter.

Grew up using hardened gas check linotypes. Took a number of different species.
Today with the various monolithics, especially the CEBs and the cost of an African Hunt, (or Canada or Alaskan, etc) I go with the newer technology for lest risk in bullet fracture/ deformation on the heavy boned
critters with a 45-70, 90, 50-100

BTW , still have a Navy Arms 45-70 Siamese that we used to load to darn near 458 Win Mag velocity/energy

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Grew up using hardened gas check linotypes. Took a number of different species.
Today with the various monolithics, especially the CEBs and the cost of an African Hunt, (or Canada or Alaskan, etc) I go with the newer technology for lest risk in bullet fracture/ deformation on the heavy boned
critters with a 45-70, 90, 50-100

BTW , still have a Navy Arms 45-70 Siamese that we used to load to darn near 458 Win Mag velocity/energy

I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve been using LeHigh’s monolithic flat-nosed solids lately and they work very well.

Whitworth +1 on the punch of the Punch bullet.

We used them in our 45-70 and 45-90 tests 10+ years ago and even at 45-70 velocity they punched through a hanging 5/8 inch steel plate.

In the field with my .45-90, they shot through an ele frontal brain shot and on into the body and had to be cut out. Also, naturally shot through all other critters.
Grizzly Cartridge sells their 45-70 400 grain +P Punch at 2000 fps for folks that do not reload. That will also make the frontal brain shot kill and shoot through most any other game.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Whitworth +1 on the punch of the Punch bullet.

We used them in our 45-70 and 45-90 tests 10+ years ago and even at 45-70 velocity they punched through a hanging 5/8 inch steel plate.

In the field with my .45-90, they shot through an ele frontal brain shot and on into the body and had to be cut out. Also, naturally shot through all other critters.
Grizzly Cartridge sells their 45-70 400 grain +P Punch at 2000 fps for folks that do not reload. That will also make the frontal brain shot kill and shoot through most any other game.

Buffalo Bore loads the LeHigh flat-noses solid in their new Dangerous Game line of ammo. The bullet weighs 380 grains and runs over 2,000 fps. Those Punch loads have spotty availability. We tested pre-production .480 Ruger loads (of the DG load) on bovines (water buffalo and a 2,600 lb fatal hybrid) last year and they proved extremely lethal.

I just read the story. What struck me were the pictures: not exactly Cape buff terrain. I wonder if he had tried that on a buff's natural terrain if he would have killed him. At least he admitted he was behind a fence.

Cape buff naturally live in areas like that. Everything in south africa is fenced and i had hoped this wouldnt get into a bunch of fence mumbo jumbo. I hunted south africa 3 times. All behind a fence. All were likely bigger pieces of property than the county you live in. Meaning the fence means nothing. Funny all those dogging the 45/70 wouldnt hesitate to use a 400. Though only an idiot would throw cast bullets in a 400. 45/70is plenty with the right bullets and if you dont shoot crappy. Thats really what this story is about. Poor shot placement, repeatedly

Whitworth,

Thanks for the info. Sounds perfect.
Bullet shape, weight and construction trumps velocity in .500+ calibre for cape buffalo .

PS. 15 yds is close! Wow! I killed an old bull at 22 paces once with a 300 grain CEB CPS in 375 HH.
That was pretty exciting. But 15 yds. is very close. Good job. Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Whitworth,

Thanks for the info. Sounds perfect.
Bullet shape, weight and construction trumps velocity in .500+ calibre for cape buffalo .

PS. 15 yds is close! Wow! I killed an old bull at 22 paces once with a 300 grain CEB CPS in 375 HH.
That was pretty exciting. But 15 yds. is very close. Good job. Brian

Thanks Brian! We spent the two previous days bumping buffalo and chasing after them. The wind worked in our favor - thankfully.

I think that I got my names mixed up. It is Brandon who got within 15 yards.

Thanks to all for a great thread! Brian

I read my american hunter over the weekend and that article. His first shot at 80 yards with the 45/70 must have been a bit head on as it raked the bull's left side and stopping in the guts with no vital organ damage. So, the first shot is a gut shot and we all know the first shot has to be a good one. The author confessed it was a running gun battle after that. He got two more broadside shots in at the running bull and they both hit the hip but no bone. Then again at the rear of the fleeing bull were three more shots, one of which penetrated a lung but no bone was hit. Then again two running broadside shots in the guts one high and one low. Some of the shots were taken at too long a range for buff but he was just trying to bring the animal down. Finally they came upon the bull broadside at 15 yards and a good shot to the shoulder hitting both lungs and top of heart put the bull down with an added insurance shot to a then apparent dead buff. The ninth and only perfectly good shot got it done but I'm sure the buff was in pretty bad shape by then. He was using 430 grain hardcast buffalo bore ammo which I believe is akin to using solids and having a muzzle energy of 3,000 plus ft./lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
I think that I got my names mixed up. It is Brandon who got within 15 yards.

Thanks to all for a great thread! Brian

It was me, Brian. He caught wind of me, whirled around and faced me and I stuck him in the chest.

The 45/70 killed 70 million buffalo here in the USA.

quote:

The 45/70 killed 70 million buffalo here in the USA.

I would say Cape Buffalo are much Tougher than American Bison!!!

I suggest you shoot him with a well-placed, well-designed bullet at adequate velocity and don't let him get close enough to read the markings on your rifle.

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Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

The 45/70 killed 70 million buffalo here in the USA.

I would say Cape Buffalo are much Tougher than American Bison!!!

A bison is much larger than a buffalo. With the bullets we have today a 400 grain bullet at 2000 fps kills regardless of whether it is a 450/400 or 45/70 Government. If the bullet holds together it should be about the same. The math is the same.

Now, one is apt to have better results from a good expanding bullet than a solid or hard cast bullet. There are a lot of 400 grain, 40 cal bullets, that are tough expanders. There are not so many, of any, tough 400grain, 458 expanders. Maybe a Barnes TSX. The 475 Turnbull uses 400 grain TSX bullets at 2000fps, and its a .475. So, a 458, 400 grain TSX would be more balanced than the Turnbull.

I would rather not use either the 45/70 or 470 Turnbull, but 2000 fps and 400 grains is a winner. The bullet just has to be designed to work (either expander or solid).

It is not about the 45/70. It is about a bullet designed to penetrate at 2000fps at 400 grains.

quote:

It is not about the 45/70. It is about a bullet designed to penetrate at 2000fps at 400 grains.

Such a simple concept, so hard to sell!

How about a 450 grain .458 Kodiak fmj at 2150 fps from a Model 1886 45-90? The buff do not know that a lever action launched pill cannot hurt them.

Whitworth.
Thanks, That is high adventure! They look very big at 15 yds.

There have been credible test done showing that a 67% meplat and a 13 deg, straight ogive is optimum for deep and straight penetration.

Whitworth, I agree on the cast bullets too. I killed three cows with .577 NE hard cast bullets.
The heat treated mix/alloy was BN22. It was a complex, shatter resistant, mixture explained to me by an expert bullet caster. I fired it at 1650fps only. It still deformed some going through thick shoulder bone. I took a finishing spine shot at 4 feet on a buffalo laying on the ground, The recovered bullet was pretty beat up.
It was fun casting the bullets but they were nothing like a CEB of NF solid.

I killed a bison with a 45-70 using a Swift A-frame at 1800 fps. 1 shot. I wouldn't use it on cape buffalo.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I suggest you shoot him with a well-placed, well-designed bullet at adequate velocity and don't let him get close enough to read the markings on your rifle.

How do you determine “adequate” velocity?

Hey it’s dangerous game - when you’re close, but only potentially dangerous game from a distance. I’d rather get close, it’s a lot more challenging and fun.

I used an aframe out of a 454 casull and a 460 on two Cape buff both put down with one shot. So why wouldnt you use it out of a 45/70? Better choice than the authors hardcast for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:

quote:

It is not about the 45/70. It is about a bullet designed to penetrate at 2000fps at 400 grains.

Such a simple concept, so hard to sell!

How about a 450 grain .458 Kodiak fmj at 2150 fps from a Model 1886 45-90? The buff do not know that a lever action launched pill cannot hurt them.

Sounds like a 458 WM to me (not seated for a Winchester Model 70 throat of course).

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
I used an aframe out of a 454 casull and a 460 on two Cape buff both put down with one shot. So why wouldnt you use it out of a 45/70? Better choice than the authors hardcast for sure.

Pretty impressive,what firearms & what velocity were used?

Lheym500,
Nope, just my Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD .45-90 26 inch barrel as loaded by Grizzly Cartridge.

They also loaded some 450 North Fork FPS and 430 Punch bullets for our tests and both shoot through ele and all else.

Who was it that said "ITS THE BULLET, STUPID!" ?

I think he also said "Shot placement rules!"

"It's the bullet..." Very true!

Tradmark, Like Bill73, I too am very interested in what your velocities were with the 454 Casull and the 460.

Also the weight of the bullet.

Thanks, Brian

Exactly !

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
An idiot named Carmelo used to post here. He was a .45-70 fan. He was a bit like Rich aka Idahosharpshooter in his interpersonal skills plus he was stupid.
Anyway, he testified here that a 45-70 was his pet gun to hunt buff.

Will it kill them? Yes. Will it kill as well as a .375HH, of course not.

I think that article is doing all of us a disservice by publishing an article like that.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Lheym500,
Nope, just my Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD .45-90 26 inch barrel as loaded by Grizzly Cartridge.

They also loaded some 450 North Fork FPS and 430 Punch bullets for our tests and both shoot through ele and all else.

Who was it that said "ITS THE BULLET, STUPID!" ?

I think he also said "Shot placement rules!"

Of course, I was making a joke, but refuse to use emojis. The 45/90 load might as well be a 458wm. As you said do not let the buffalo read the the stamp on the barrel. I love the punch bullet.

We agree with each other. I was trying to be clever and cheeky and was not clear.

In 1972, I took the 1st Marlin 95, in 45/70 to Africa to hunt with. At the time I could only get the 405gr silver tips. loaded up 47 grs of 4198, for (chronographed later on) at 1900 fps. The bullets all flattened out to look like quarters. So not good penetration. I do believe if I'd been using some of today bullets, solids or really tough expanding bullets, Barnes FI, and another grain or two of powder, it would essentially be a 404 and work the same. Get up close and make sure the bullet goes where it's supposed to, and see no problem with using the 45/70 as a DGR. In fact, as PH I hunted with last year, seemed to feel the Marlin 95 in 45/79 using a 400 gr, or thereabouts, bullet at 2000 fps, would be a great DG rifle. Need to load it up to the higher velocity, for the extra energy, and use a good bullet. Some great ones out there these days, and can tailor the ammo to what you want. Seems with cape buff you wound them, can be a lot of additional shooting before it goes down. Read an article by Warren Page, where someone wounded a buff, and the hunter and guides put something like 15 more shots into it, at close range and heavy cover, before it was killed. They were shooting 458s and 470s.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
I used an aframe out of a 454 casull and a 460 on two Cape buff both put down with one shot. So why wouldnt you use it out of a 45/70? Better choice than the authors hardcast for sure.

Pretty impressive,what firearms & what velocity were used?

Tradmark is tied up right now and will be around here a little later to fill in the blanks.

One Cape buff was shot at 35 yards with an FA 83 in .454 (with a 6-inch barrel). The load consists of a 325 grain A-frame that leaves the muzzle right around 1,585 fps.

Buffalo number two was shot at 150 yards with a BFR in .460 S&W (7 1/2-inch barrel). That one slings a 300 grain A-frame at 2,000 fps at the muzzle. Impact velocity should be around 1,500 fps give or take.

I will note that we are getting more than adequate penetration from our revolvers despite the much lower velocities. As I mentioned earlier, I got seven feet of penetration out of a 1,400 fps velocity. Muzzle energy is a poor measure of lethality.

If energy was a major part, arrows would never kill anything!