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Fitting indeed. Definitly makes sense. (at least I think so).

mike
 
Posts: 180 | Location: Bremerton, Wa | Registered: 23 February 2006Reply With Quote
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You guys are right. Concentration is what makes it happen. I usually shoot 24 arrows per session, usually twice a day if I get the chance. When it comes together, I can shoot pretty well...when it doesn't...I need to focus more.

I shoot the back of a "Block" like a bare bale and I shoot for a spot where broadheads cut it up so I can focus on a very small spot. I don't aim and use my thumb knuckle on the cheek bone right below my eye. I think I'm pretty consistant with the anchor point which is why I thought of grip. Maybe I need to look at some of Chef's ideas...one at a time.

Thanks guys...I'll get there by deer season!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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A friend just sent this to me regarding inner peasce and how to acheive it....

I am passing this on to you because it definitely worked for me and we
could all use a little more calmness in our lives. By following the
simple advice I heard on the Dr. Phil show, I have finally found inner
peace.

Dr. Phil proclaimed, "The way to achieve inner peace is to finish all
the things you've started and never finished."

So, I looked around my house to see all the things I started and hadn't finished, and before
leaving the house this morning, I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a
bottle of White Zinfandel, a bottle of Bailey's Irish Cream, a bottle of
Kahlua, a package of Oreos, the remainder of my old Prozac prescription,
the rest of the cheesecake, some Doritos and a box of chocolates.

You have no idea how freaking good I feel. Please pass this on to those
you feel might be in need of inner peace.


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Big Grin That'll bout cover it. thumb

mike
 
Posts: 180 | Location: Bremerton, Wa | Registered: 23 February 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Lowrider 49:
A friend just sent this to me regarding inner peasce and how to acheive it....

I am passing this on to you because it definitely worked for me and we
could all use a little more calmness in our lives. By following the
simple advice I heard on the Dr. Phil show, I have finally found inner
peace.

Dr. Phil proclaimed, "The way to achieve inner peace is to finish all
the things you've started and never finished."

So, I looked around my house to see all the things I started and hadn't finished, and before
leaving the house this morning, I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a
bottle of White Zinfandel, a bottle of Bailey's Irish Cream, a bottle of
Kahlua, a package of Oreos, the remainder of my old Prozac prescription,
the rest of the cheesecake, some Doritos and a box of chocolates.

You have no idea how freaking good I feel. Please pass this on to those
you feel might be in need of inner peace.


Big Grin

Most successful bowhunters know about inner peace.

Inner peace is having a secret and telling no one. Wink
 
Posts: 3167 | Location: out behind the barn | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Lowrider: Wide groups such as those that you have experienced can be caused by incorrect arrow spine (shaft too long or too short, head too heavy or too light) or by plucking the string as you release. You may feel that your release is pretty consistant, but have some one observe you from the rear as you shoot and make note of the release, i.e., whether your drawing hand moves back, moves off to the side of your face, or stays fixed as in what is known as a dead release. If you are shooting off the shelf and not an elevated rest, you should only use feathers due to their ability to flex around the riser and recover. Vanes are not tolerant of shelf or riser contact and will "push" the arrow off to the left as it is released making accurate shooting impossible. Another recommendation would be for you to shoot one arrow at a time, and not be concerned with shooting groups. Shooting groups can sometimes ingrain improper form through excessive repetition and visual cues.
 
Posts: 55 | Registered: 12 August 2005Reply With Quote
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Tradspirit,

Thank ya sir. I fell off a manure spreader a couple weeks ago and hit my shoulder on the tractor tire and I am "resting" my shoulder at the moment.

You are probably right about the release. I some times find my thumb knuckle which I anchor on my cheek bone hit my ear lobe upon release. It seems to happen most when I'm tired and I've always just attributed it to fatigue but it certainly could be poor release technique.

I set up 6 carbon arrows with feathers and 6 with 5" vanes and I can't tell the differance in the way they shoot at 15 yds. They may be stabilzed at that range, but I see yhour point.

Another week or so I'll be back at the bow and see how things go. Thanks for the comments!!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Lowrider,
I would go to Easton's or O.L. Adcocks website and read all the info on arrow tuning.
http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm
http://www.eastonarchery.com/

I feel that shooting a tuned/properly matched arrow is the single most most important thing in archery. It will improve your shooting and penetration on game.

Here is the my approach.

Find the proper brace height for your bow. with recurves I usually start low around 6 inches then work my way up to 9-10. Without silencers of any kind. I shoot lots of different arrows, weights etc. The bow will tell you when it is is in sweet spot. The handshock will be noticeably less and the bow will shoot better. Normally between 7-8 inches for recurves. The manufacturer will also have a recommended brace height. But go with what feels best to you with your bow.

Pick the shaft size. (many of shaft calculators on the web. Every arrow manufacturer usually has one.

I then fletch 3 arrows and leave three unfletched. Leave at full length.

I go out and shoot all six arrows with all the variable weight points I have. (75-250gr).
I usually start with 125 or 145gr tips. I then let the arrows tell me if they are too stiff or weak spined, and if my nocking point is correct. (see websites above)

I try to get them basically shooting into one group. If they are too weak for my desired field tip weight. I cut about 1/4" off the arrow at a time.

Say an arrow is too weak with 75gr tips, then I usually cut 1/2-1" off. There is a feel that you will develop.

I shoot strictly traditional gear. And this year I switched to carbon arrows. To get the physical weight up. I went with the next higher spine arrow and left them 3 inches longer than normal (lengthing an arrowing decreases dynamic spine). 3 extra inches is approx 15 lbs.

Fine tuning falls under these categories:
This is in regards to what each will do in relation to dynamic spine.
1. tip weight
lighter= stiffer, heavier= weaker
2. fletching (clearance is a separate problem that must be fixed first)
smaller=weaker, bigger=stiffer
3. center shot of the bow
closer to center more forgiving (that's why longbows can be finicky.
3.Brace height (don't want to change this too much since you've already found the best height for your bow and shooting style)
higher=stiffer, lower=weaker

So as you can see, if you already have certain length arrows, your only options are to change the point weight, fletching and brace height. The heavier points are making the dynamic spine of your arrows weaker. Which is closer to the weight of your bow.

Static spine of your arrow is easy to determine. Take the deflection measurement.

This measurement is obtained by resting a 29" arrow between two points 28" apart and hanging a 1.94lb or 880gm weight in the middle. The amount of deflection/bend in the arrow is then measured. This is AMO standard per an Easton engineer.

Carbons arrows have the deflection right on them 200, 300, 340, 500 corresponds to the amopunt of deflection in inches. 0.2, 0.3, 0.34, 0.5 etc. You need to go to the website to get deflection for aluminum arrows.

Take 28 and divide by the deflection.
28/.2= 140lb static spine
28/.3= 93lb
28/.34= 82.3 lb
28/.4= 70 lb
28/.5= 56lb

So for example my recurve is 58# at 28 inches. I draw it about 61#.

The 2117's you are shooting have a static spine of approx 69#. As you can see, you have a ways to go to get the dynamic spine to match your bow.

I went with 340 carbon arrows (82# static spine)
I take my bow poundage 61#
add 15# for an extra 3 inches of arrow.
add 3-5# for finger shooting
add antother 3-5# for 145 gr tip (125 is standard)
I come up with a dynamic arrow spine of roughly 83#. Close enough for me. But most importantly is the fact that the arrows are bare shaft tuning together.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I feel this is a very important and misunderstood subject in archery.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Black Mining Hills of Dakota | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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SD,

Thanks for the info. I think you are right about arrow tuning and I appreciate the details on how you accomplish the task. I may need to throw everything out the window and start all over to get it right.

Thanks for taking the time to provide the details...I'll give it a try!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Lowrider,
I wouldn't necessarily throw everything out the window. You should be able to get the arrows to fly. But you will probably have to really increase the tip weight. Then you might have an arrow that is too heavy, or just FOC heavy for your personal preference.

I just wanted to share what I knew (I admit that I am still learning) and try to explain what options you have.

I struggled for years to get arrows flying properly. I was given the one size fits all philosophy when I purchased my first bow (a compound) and the "adjust the rest" to get the arrows to fly correctly.

Later when I switched to traditional, I was given lots of conflicting information. I struggled with arrow flight for the first few years. It didn't help that I switched directly from a compound to a non-center shot longbow. Which made arrow spine that much more critical.
It wasn't until I started the bare shaft tuning and cutting arrow length to match the bow, point weight, and fletching did I start having consistent arrow flight and even more importantly consistent shooting.

The whole secret is getting the dynamic spine of the arrow to match you and your individual setup. The only way to check that is by:
1. bare shaft tuning
or
2. paper tuning

I have had sets of arrows that flew great to the eye, but when I went back and bare shafted them. They ended up being way too stiff or weak. That causes the point of impact to change. So when I made a new set of arrows every year, in hindsight, I was shifting the POI. I think that contributed to my struggling with instinctive shooting. I had to relearn every time I made up a new set of arrows.

Since I started paying more attention to arrow tuning, my shooting has improved immensely and more importantly my shooting in hunting situations has improved.

I am usually not very type A about stuff, but I am about a properly tuned arrow, and sharp broadheads!!

I hope that I am not coming across as a know it all. I just like to share what I have learned. Unfortunately, the hard way, and can hopefully make this traditional thing a whole lot more fun and take some of the mystery but not the romance out of it.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Black Mining Hills of Dakota | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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Bareshafting definitely works for those that have the time and inclination. I personally have never bareshafted any of my arrows, an I am a firm believer in shooting the shaft that I use when I hunt, i.e., with fletching and broadheads. I absolutely believe that arrows, matched to your bow and shooting style, will give excellent performance out to your range of competence. Matching an arrow to your bow necessitates the use of arrows that have the correct spine and weight. These all affect the FOC which when matched arrow to arrow will give consistant peformance. Best investments I ever made were a good spine tester and a digital weight scale. For wooden shafts, a woodchuck will assure the concentric point application that is so critical to shaft revolution in flight. Setting up carbons also requires that the inserts be glued in so that the head remains concentric to the shaft once installed. This is easily accopmplished by grinding the end of the shaft so that its edge is perpendicular to the centerline of the shaft.
Remember that even the fastest and most beautiful bow does not kill the animal. The arrow does. Time spent on your shafts is time well spent.
 
Posts: 55 | Registered: 12 August 2005Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen,

Again, thank you very much for your time and efforts. I'm going to blend your comments into some new ideas and see what I can do to make my arrows fly the way they should. I was just about ready to start shooting again and last weekend I pressure washed my house and my damn shoulder is not ready to pull a bow yet.

In the mean time I'm going to make up some arrows as best I can to match your comments. I'll see how they work out.

Again, thanks for the help!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen,

I took 3 of 6 arrows I have been shooting and replaced the 4" vanes with 5" rt wing feathers and I have 3 without feathers or vanes (Bare shaft). I'm shooting 175 gr field points and for the life of me I can't see any real differance in the way they fly. I guess I need to build a frame so I can paper test.

I'm thinking that the 175 gr field points are doing a lot to stabilize the shaft because when I drop back to 125 gr, the nock is swishing around in a circle about 10' out.

It's only about 8 weeks to bow season, so I need to get serious about this whole thing. At least my 15 yd shooting has been within 4-5" of POA regardless of the type of arrow I shoot. I'm going to switch to broadheads soon and see how that works out.

I'm starting to see some nice bucks in velvet...that always gets the blood running hot!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Best of luck to you Lowrider. Hopefully everything will work out and you'll get your buck. Big Grin

mike
 
Posts: 180 | Location: Bremerton, Wa | Registered: 23 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Fletch up 3 arrows with feathers, put broadheads on them(same kind of course). mark the arrows 1,2,3 and start shooting them.

If you'll hunt from the air,a sand pile is a good back stop. Toss styro coffee cup inthe sand as a target and your're good to go.

Shoot a dozen 3 arrows groups keep notes on what happens. Be sure to rest a few minutes between groups and take your sweet time. Only think about the shot your taking.

Tell us what happens after 36-60 shots.

I'm starting to want you to get a buck more than I want one for myself.....ALMOST Wink


If you can't smell his breath, your're not close enough!

 
Posts: 980 | Location: Illinois | Registered: 04 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Good luck to you and take care of your injury.
 
Posts: 55 | Registered: 12 August 2005Reply With Quote
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Lowrider,
Where are the bareshafts hitting on the target in relation to the fletched shafts?

If all six arrows are in one group, you good to go. If you want, shoot another three fletched arrows and shoot them with your choice of broadhead.

If all nine arrows group together you are set.
You have tuned your arrows to your bow and shooting style.

Good luck with your hunting this season.
 
Posts: 2034 | Location: Black Mining Hills of Dakota | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen,

It seems my bare and fletched shafts are hitting roughtly in the same spot. I gotta tell you this is not sub-MOA shooting I'm doing here.

At 12-15 yds the arrows are flying and striking the target straight on and at 20 yds, they are slightly nock low, but still grouping in the same spot. I'm going to limit myself to 15 yd shots, so I should be just fine with the way they are set up now. The change over to broadheads did not make a significant difference in flight characteristics. Now it is time to start shooting from a tree stand and see if I'm good enough under real conditions. I promised myself I was not going to go back to the the compound all this year and only shoot the recurve only. We'll see how I do.

I wanted to thank each of you for your ideas and assistance and wish you successful and rewarding archery seasons this coming year.

Good Luck!!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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15 yard shots are so darned hard to get off, unless you're in a treestand. The closer you get to an animal the more likely you are to get busted. At 20-25 yards it gets way easier. I understand why you want to hunt close though and I agree with it. I just wanted you to know that you'll have many more "challenges" at close range.

the chef
 
Posts: 2763 | Registered: 11 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Chef,

I'm with ya...I usually hunt out of a tree early in the season and then when the rut starts I spend more time on the ground. I've been busted by a lot of good deer over the years, but sometimes you just get lucky or they have pussy on their minds and don't care about that ugly thing in the tree.

I've been shooting a fair amount at 20 yds and I could probably be just fine with a 20 yd shot, but <15 yds is a pretty sure thing so I feel more comfortable with that.

Good luck with your new long bow!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Just thought I would share this with you guys...I got into the tree stand about 1600 this afternoon and about 1630, a 10 pt and a 6 pt walked within 30 yds of my stand. I had my recurve and was not about to take a shot that long. Even though 30 yds is a long shot for me with a compound...I sure wish I had it in the tree with me today. The 10 pt was SUCH a nice deer...heavy, tall and wide rack with a solid body. I wonder if the 6 pt was his son...they both looked very much alike.

I feel pretty lucky to have seen them both and I'll sure keep that memory for a long while!!

Good luck to everyone!!


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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I thought I would share a photo of a good friend of mine from Alaska who had a sucsesfull recurve hunt for Dall Sheep. No doubt recurves have limits but WOW! what rewards when it all comes together.
Semper Fi and Safe Hunting
Will
 
Posts: 581 | Location: Mesa, AZ | Registered: 08 May 2006Reply With Quote
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A sheep like that with a recurve is a pretty damn nice accomplishment!!

the chef
 
Posts: 2763 | Registered: 11 March 2004Reply With Quote
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Wow! I can't imagine getting that close to one of those eagle-eyed cliff-dwellers. Congrats to your friend.


Don_G

...from Texas, by way of Mason, Ohio and Aurora, Colorado!
 
Posts: 1645 | Location: Elizabeth, Colorado | Registered: 13 February 2004Reply With Quote
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That is one fine animal!! My total respect to anyone who can get that close and make the kill.

I tried twice with a .280 and never got a shot.


The year of the .30-06!!
100 years of mostly flawless performance on demand.....Celebrate...buy a new one!!
 
Posts: 858 | Location: MD Eastern Shore | Registered: 24 May 2005Reply With Quote
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