Just wondering if there is one. I know the NRA helped the Brazil groups stop the handgun ban.

We are trying to settle one... indeed is the only one existing, but yet we have not gathered enough members so as to have the needed strenght to be seriously heard by this gov.... it´s named ALUTARA (asocacion de legitimos usuarios y tenedores de armas de fuego de la republica argentina: translated something like "firearms´ legitimate users and owners association" of the Argentine Republic.)

You may want to contact the NRA/GOA, etc for advice -- the NRA tends to have far more resources, so they may be more helpful -- if you send me some sign up/contribution information, I'll be happy to kick in some funds -- have to try to keep the happy hunting grounds open, etc.

I have worked on this very issue since my return from Argentina in October. I have discussed it directly with the NRA President, Sandra Froman, and also with Todd Mason of the World Forum on Sport Shooting, who is also a recognized delegate to the UN when these gun grabbing ideas come up there.

There was a meeting, or convention of some sort, in Nuremberg, Germany, in March, I believe, but my friends from Argentina could not afford to go.

I was also directed to Col. Paes de Lira, in Brazil,, who was one of the leaders in their gun rights battle. He did not respond to my e-mail and I have heard that he has since been elected to their legislature.

The facts are, best as I can recall, that the NRA did not directly involve itself in Brazil, but made a substantial contribution to the opposition to the proposed gun grab. De Lira actually came to the US and spoke to the membership at an NRA Annual Convention a few years back.

The NRA will not directly involves itself in matters in foreign countries but would probably provide some financial aid if they thought there was a group really spearheading an opposition, as was the case in Brazil.

The same might be said of the World Forum.

I can provide the e-mail addresses of Ms. Froman, of Tom Mason, and of Col. De Lira, but will only do so with a private e-mail.

The problem you face in Argentina is numbers. This type of "disarmista," taking the rights of gun owners, can only be combated with large numbers of supporters. Active, vocal, contributing supporters. Sadly, that seems to be lacking in Argentina.

Always keep in mind that in the US we have over four million active NRA members; members in Congress and in the Senate, as well as former Presidents. There are also several other gun rights groups that work together to fight this battle, and the battle continues, day in and day out:

Gun Owners of America

Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

Single Action Shooting Society

and many other active shooting groups.

I can stress this once again because it is so important. Numbers, you need numbers. Why? Because numbers represent voters, and that is what politicans look to.

I wish you all the best and will continue to do what I can do to help, limited as it may be.

Well, let me say that I do appreciate your sympathy and concern about this subject !!

The problem with us (as a community) is that we won´t stand up and fight for our rights unless... unless I don´t know what - yet ...

The great majority of argentinians are accustomed to do just and nothing more than what are told to do by mediocre politicians - just to be given some wine and food for a couple of days as a retribution... this of course when talking about low social classes (majority), who - although most of them might be nice people - lack of proper education and wont worry about what might happen tomorrow as a direct consequence of their today´s actions ....

This lefty government detenting power in argentina is desarming (nowadays I should really write discouraging, but ...) all citizens at the same time that is motivating the social resentment on those who prefer to live a life of misery and vagrancy, following Castro´s and the venezuelan clown´s advice ...

And the middle social class won`t mobilize as an homogeneus group just because we always fought alone - and what is worse we fought only when we were obliged to, never as a preventive action ... and there lays the clue that (in my humble opinion) must lead our actions: we have to awake the conscience of all the citizens, but to make them to understand that this action has to be made from a a preventive point of view, since if not it will be too late to do anything effective...

But also the argentinean idiosyncracy expects a leader to follow... most people won´t do much if left alone, but give them a leader to follow and things might change quite a lot ... the only problem (and nothing less ) is to know how to choose and what to expect about that leader... and to trust him to stay within the ideals and goals that were sought, aswell as to expect him to avoid to succumb to any personal interest (enrichment) once he holds some power (argentina´s always repeated history, except for very scarce exceptions)

But worse would be not to do anything, and I think that by knowing the problem, we have half of its solution at hand ...

We would really appreciate some advice of any NRA active member, you might let us know some of those succesful measures you put in practice ...

Thanks you both !

Martin. If it was possible to hold this off until there was a possibility of a change in regimes. Kirchner gone. But that may be wishful thinking. For Argentines to follow the lead of the likes of Chavez and Castro is a big mistake.

The most important thought to be conveyed, from my perspective, is the natural God given right of every man (or woman) to have the means to defend and protect themselves and their families. This should be as apparent to the poor as it is to the rich. For who is more vicitmized by armed criminals than the poor......

Our second amendment is important in this debate, but I thought Argentina had a similar provision in its constitution.

In our capital city, Washington, D.C. (the crime capital of the US) the court recently ruled that citizens had a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. This was just upheld by the Circuit Court of Appeals. And who were the folks in strong support of this litigation....the poor and middle class who are the every day victims.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2007050801212.html


What the poor sheep fail to understand is that the wealthy, like Kirchner and his supporters, have bodyguards and the arms to protect themselves.

You inquired about successful measures put into practice. Simple, the NRA with its strong support and strong lobbying efforts in Washington. Strong enough in many areas to help elect or defeat a candidate. The key - numbers - lobbyists - mass support.

But sadly I see the leaders in your country looking to the radical left for examples instead of the more conservative examples on the right.

These Chavez like bastards promise a chicken in every pot and a home for every chicken - as the terrorist slime Mandela did in South Africa. And what happened when the blacks took over...
no chickens, no homes, no pots, more crime, more corruption.

Argentina needs to do what France just did - get rid of the left and elect someone from the right.

I will tell my NRA amigos to check this AR site and offer their comments. But I am sure you will hear much the same.....numbers, well organized and well led gun rights groups.
An NRAA...National Rifle Association of Argentina.

My best, as always

I think the strongest cards to play would be:
Benefit of hunting to Argentina's ecology and economy.
The more people in a state (in the US) that carry a handgun, the more the crime drops
That the elderly, crippled, women, cannot really defend themselves...
Australia's increasing violent crime rate, since having the guns taken away.
England's skyrocketing violent crime, since being disrmed.
Switzerland's history of very low crime, and very few invasions, and a heavily armed population.

Now, MAYBE (could be too dangerous) bring up Hitler, Stalin, etc. disarming, and then slaughtering their populations. The only time I had it work was on a blue dog democrat cop who thought registration was a good idea, until I pointed out New Orleans (he didn't think a US cop would ever seize a gun from a free citizen.)

I would suggest building a website ASAP w. your reasons to be armed (see if you can find a priest willing to make an argument for self-defense),
Method of joining, sign up for a mailing list about what the government's trying to do, etc -- too many times it's politicians doing these things w.o. explaining what the laws will actually do.

There is an organization figthing www.alutara.com.ar the important thing is that in every small town 100 percent of the people have guns and hunt so we need to join an organization as fast as we can .There is a real danger even for tourists hunters in the future is the new laws are aproved.juan

You must fight for your rights, the yare increasing it over here also, and making it more difficult for new hunters to get their rights to buy weapons, plus every unfortunate incident there is polls in the papers and on then et with questions like, do you think the gunlaws are to soft og strict.

Plus we have a SOB in the Norwegian Police department that is an avid antigun fanatic and he is in charge of the gun lawas and suggestion for new gun laws.

So im worried for the future, if something doesnt happen and we get our rights as they are now in 20 years.

Keep up the fight for freedom Americans , both north and south.

Some more ideas: Put a version of the website up in English -- if possible, a way to take donations in either paypal, or credit cards -- I joined ProTell, since even Switzerland is under attack now -- I have to visit my banker tomorrow to try to figure out how to pay them... (and, try to remember my German)

I don't know how much power you're local governments have, but Clinton backed off some of his stupidity once small towns (or at least the small one in TX that I grew up in) started throwing EPA agents/other feds in jail, forcing them to leave, etc.

The key to remember, is that the socialists in charge are doing this to score political points, not because it is a deeply held belief. If you can make it too politically costly for them -- MAKE SURE the urban press is aware that there is outrage from the rural citizens -- show things like how defensless rural people are, if they're unarmed.

IE. My sheriff once lectured me for being unarmed -- he arrived 4.5 hours after he was called, and made it very clear that the fastest he could get to my place would be 1 hour.

Try to get local law enforcement to discuss, with the press, how dangerous it is both for them, and the population, if the people lose their weapons.

All my ideas for now.

Aglifter. I agree with your suggestions. But to do some of those things they have to get ORGANIZED. They need a large membership, with key leaders in each province, and a substantial fund to pull from.

I wish to thank all of you for your kind comments and efforts to help our fight. Martín (Afrikaander) told the true story very well. Already ALUTARA lacks funding....a sort of Catch 22 circle. No funding because they have few members, and they have few members because publicity is pricey. We don´t have any Second Amendment unfortunately. Crime is on the rise and the disarming organizations claim for more disarming....piece of cake for the thieves, the elderly are robbed and killed every day.

Maybe an email campaign? Work together to write a good presentation of your reasons for stopping the disarming of your population, and circulate it to people you know, making sure they know of your organization, etc.

I'd be glad to help, but the only Argentinans I know seem to be very good looking women ... who aren't interested in me

Ricardo. It is a Catch 22, and a a very serious one. You cannot win without members, thousands of members. And with that they need to be willing to pay a few dollars. I wish there was a better or easier way. If you had a rock solid organization to lead this battle, perhaps the NRA would help as they did in Brazil.

Aglifter. You and I seem to be of like mind. Where in Texas are you?

We dont have the 2nd amendment but one of our articles say every citizen has the obligation to arm in defend of the country THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY DONT CARE OF THE CONSTITUTION .JUAN

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
We dont have the 2nd amendment but one of our articles say every citizen has the obligation to arm in defend of the country THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY DONT CARE OF THE CONSTITUTION .JUAN

Well, sadly it is a fact that Argentina hasn´t got any juridical guarantee at all ... laws are voted - and some time later revoked by the same argumets originally used to justify its promulgation ....

Economical / political interests (usually favouring a great minority of corrupted politicians ) are much stronger than any given and long settled law ...

That´s why we have to grow in strenght first - and just then we will manage to make our rights to be heard... we must all do our best to make every known shooter, hunter, gun symphatetic and even any true and real freedom fighter to participate actively in this debate before it would be too late ...

I think Aglifter's thought of an English language version of the web site is a good one, as is the ability to accept contributions on line.

I too will do what I can to help. Most of us here in the US recognize that this is a cause that extends beyond out borders.

The unfortunate truth is that the UN is prehaps our worst enemy when it comes to disarming populations. They do it under the guise of their "small arms" committees and conferences. And the opposition is also well funded by some left wing groups operating here in the US.

Some highly compelling grass roots arguments for the necessity of any people to be able to engage in self defense can be found at the "Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" web site http://www.jpfo.org/. Step one in Hitler's holocost was disarming the population. It is a pretty compelling real world example. Heck, they even let us lowly Irish Catholics in!

A population disarmed essentially vests absolute power in the hands of the ruling party. And to paraphrase one philosopher on the subject, "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Jim Manion: it should be very useful if someone there could contact Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and get them to support ALUTARA through their knots with the AMIA and other Jewish organizations in Argentina. Their strenght in the fight against discrimination (which disarming surely is) should be very much appreciated.
Regards

quote:

Originally posted by nainital:
Jim Manion: it should be very useful if someone there could contact Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership and get them to support ALUTARA through their knots with the AMIA and other Jewish organizations in Argentina. Their strenght in the fight against discrimination (which disarming surely is) should be very much appreciated.
Regards

You just posted what I was just about to, Ricardo !!

That will surely be a good movement ...

OK, Couple more ideas:
Either personally, or as part of ALUTARA, contact the various hunting organizations in Argentina, and ask them to do several things.

Put a link/section of their website which would:

Explain that firearms ownership, and their ability to hunt in Ar, is under threat, and that Alutara exists to fight it.

The explanation doesn't have to be in perfect English, merely understandable -- Put an update section, perhaps, which would allow hunters (eager to go on their hunt) to check up on Alutara's progress, while checking photos, daydreaming, etc -- things hunters do while getting anxious about leaving.

Offer to process a donation to Alutara along with their hunt payment (Aside from taking credit cards, this is the one way I could think of to enable American hunters to donate to Alutara.)

I'm not sure if this would be feasible, but some of the larger hunting organizations might be able to just accept donations, on behalf of Alutara, and process the donations with the hunt payments.

Bill Berlat and Jim Manion: I wish to thank again your intelligent ideas and efforts for helping our fight against disarming. As per private messaging, I knew your valuable comments, which I´ll transfer to the authorities of ALUTARA.
My best regards

I have already done that, Ricardo... with Gerardo Cabrera, vice president of ALUTARA.

He replied my email in a very gently way and encouraged me to continue this line of contact,he didn´t said by myself but I understood so....

Will try to catch their attention again, and if not ... well perhaps at least we found an answer to one of our questions

Martín: well done. We´ll must study in depth Gerardo´s answer. Will you be so kind to forward it to me?. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work.

Done.
Sent to your private email

Estamos en contacto
Abrazo

there is now a project in the senate by the leftst senator beach escudero that ban all the guns you must gave it to the goverment and register even airguns and sofairguns.Im alutara member,Fat ,and NRA .JUAN

You might check this group, http://www.possentisociety.com/default.asp

I think I smell George Soros(sp) down there. Am
I right?

Invader66, you couldn´t be more right than you are... George Soros is the great financier of the antis (I wonder why )

quote:

I think I smell George Soros(sp) down there. Am
I right?

Invader66-I smelled the same thing.

George is one of these "one world government" fanatics. Can't have a one world government with armed citizens, now, can we?

George is obviously not a student of history - those that disregard history are doomed to repeat it. Let's see, there was Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, Rome, and Hitler certainly had that in his sights. The Soviet Union made a good run at it too.

Too bad for George we have the US Constitution. He is doing his best, however, to get rid of that as well.

quote:

Originally posted by invader66:
You might check this group, http://www.possentisociety.com/default.asp

(....)

Some celestial help will surely do some good... but I would like to think that things are not so hopeless to only have the "pray and wait" action/possibility left !

A patron saint of handgunners ??

I wouldn`t ever guessed this one .... any patron saint for riflemen? I will surely light some hundreds of candles to him ... and to saint gabriel possenti also, of course !

Martin,

There are also patron saints for hunters, Eustachius and Hubert.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainte17.htm

http://www.thecross-photo.com/Hubert-Patron_Saint_of_Hu...by_Mitch_Ballard.htm

Interesting that both had the same vision and both are remembered on the 2nd and 3rd of November, respectively.

They are a pro gun group who is active. Seeing
as SA is,to a large part Catholic, They might
be able to help. I did not mean just pray.

Saint Hubertus is a long known friend of us ... but I didn´t know Eustachius nor Gabriel Possenti (actually I didn`t know the complete story about Eustachius) - but they have both been incorporated to my personal pantheon

Invader66, I know you didn´t mean that all we have to do is just pray (I think that all of us who like outdoors and hunting are all men of action and quite strong character, accustomed - and sometimes willing - to face adversity)... I was just joking about the supposed effectiveness of my own country representatives (both political and institutional), meaning that there we wouldn´t expect to find nor see much success , but in conjuntion with one of these new (to me) saints, perhaps ...

The problem with all of the South American countries is exactly the same. There is a very small gun culture and it takes a lot of people to swing the hammer on the scumbag politicians! Trying to organize these people is almost impossible! The same problem happens in Canada and that is why they have gun laws forced down their throats!In reality, all governments smell and do nothing except steal from each and every taxpayer. The entire lot needs to be stood against a wall and executed!

Rolexfan:
I am concern on what is going on in Chile. The Police will take the data base of the gun owners early next year, (In Chile ,ALL guns has to be registered, and pay expensive fees for it ) obviously excepting those in the hands of the criminals . The Police won´t check the bad guys , but I know that they have started to visit the homes of registered gun owners and inspect them . When the Army was in charge I never know of something like that happens, and there was no bad use of that sensible information . Perhaps I am a little too touchy ,but I started to sell most of my guns , I do not want to be the target of the growing numbers of the socialist goverment`s protected "HAMPA".
Pulki.

PM sent to Pulki. I will try to put him in touch with the chaps I have been working with on this issue in Argentina.

Hello Pulki,

I live in Santiago for the time being and will be leaving as soon as possible! I agree with you completely about the socio/communist attitude regarding the guns and everything else in this country and most of the others in South America! Please PM me as i am interested in what you have for sale. I am in Santiago. It is too bad that Pinochet didn't eliminate a lot more of the assholes as Chile would be a better place without the bulk of them!!

Cheers,

Rolex



Rolexfan:
I am concern on what is going on in Chile. The Police will take the data base of the gun owners early next year, (In Chile ,ALL guns has to be registered, and pay expensive fees for it ) obviously excepting those in the hands of the criminals . The Police won´t check the bad guys , but I know that they have started to visit the homes of registered gun owners and inspect them . When the Army was in charge I never know of something like that happens, and there was no bad use of that sensible information . Perhaps I am a little too touchy ,but I started to sell most of my guns , I do not want to be the target of the growing numbers of the socialist goverment`s protected "HAMPA".
Pulki.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by rolexfan:
Hello Pulki,

It is too bad that Pinochet didn't eliminate a lot more of the assholes as Chile would be a better place without the bulk of them!!

Cheers,

Rolex

Politics is one thing, but espousing the brutal murder of people who don't agree with your opinion on guns is pretty drastic.

Don

Here in Argentina the gun culture and hunting culture is real big there are millions of hunters and shooters ans thousands of hunting clubs ,organizations ,shooting ranges , combat schools etc but we are not in only one organization thats the problem.juan

Billinthewild : Thank you for your interest. I try to PM you ,dont know if the message ever leaved this machine.

Rolexfan :Standing by to recieve a personal message , so as to contact.

DRG : Risking to politize the forum,; recent history in my country has been written by the comunists and their partners. I dind´t know not one of the missing "victims" but did know some who were "brutaly murdered " by terrorists who were trained in the Soviet Union, Cuba and East Germany.
Pulki.