Has anyone here done any load development with smokeless powder, using brass shells? I bought the MagTech 12 gauge brass shells that use a large pistol or large rifle primer, and I can get the proper over-shot wads (11 gauge diameter), but I don't have any info regarding suitable powders and loads.

I am also hoping to find an old Lee Shotshell Reloading kit, with hand tools and dippers.

Any information would be hugely appreciated.

I would like to avoid black powder at this time.

I used this data when I played around with brass shells:

http://www.loaddata.com/member...fm?gaugeid=58&type=1

Thanks Craigster, that is a start. Have you patterned the load you worked up? How does the brass shell function in a modern pump shotgun?

Never got around to patterning the loads but they did okay on quail and pheasants. Only gun I used them in was a SxS.

Since I started this thread, I found, and purchased a book with current loading data just for brass case shotgun shells. I also found a Lee Shotshell Handloading Set. All I need to find/make is a punch to get the spent pistol primers out of the shell. I'm looking forward to playing with this, and hope they feed through my pump action well enough to justify their use.

Well, the Lee Handloader arrived in the mail yesterday. Seating large pistol primers into the MagTech cases worked without problem.

Slid one of the primed shells into the pump shotgun, pulled the trigger, and it went bang.

Took the de-priming pin assembly out of my RCBS decapping die, used it like a pin punch, and popped the fired primer out, cleaned the pocket, and seated another primer in it... Nice.

Also, put a few empty brass shells into the shotgun magazine, and worked the action. The shells fed smoothly.

I am really looking forward playing with this some more, over the tail end of winter.

Should have the reloading manual in the mail today or tomorrow.

I received the Ballistic Products' book "Reloading Brass Shotshells" this morning in the mail.

First thing I checked was the reloading data, and sure enough, I was disappointed.

The only hard loading data in the charts was for black powder and BP substitutes.

The reason for this was addressed in the text, explaining that there is no lab tested reloading info at this time using smokeless powder in brass shells.

Ok.

Still, they also state in the text that use of smokeless shotshell powder is safe in the CBC shells, it just that they have no tested loads to share.

Finally, they do mention that, when using the CBC shells, the velocities with smokeless powder loads are less than those using plastic hulls, and one-piece cup wads.

I reckon this will be a true experiment, as I truly do not wish to use black powder in my modern shotguns.

At this time, any load development I do will be using 11ga wads, instead of modern wads.

I am truly understanding the advantage of paying the premium price for the Rocky Mountain Cartridge brand of brass shells, as their internal dimensions match those of modern plastic shells, so making use of modern components and published smokeless powder loads is practical, and you can use 209 primers.

Live and learn!!

Mike:
The following is not carved in stone and much experimentation needs to be done. That said, however, in my experience with large bore rifles of 8 and 4 gauge and less experience with shotguns of the same size, I have found 25-30% of the original black powder load in Blue Dot seems to work fine as to pressure and accuracy in double bore rifles. This is approximate but here is what I have shot:
4-bore:
original load of 390 grains and an 1882 grain conical shoots well with 100 grains of BD.
8-bore:
original load of 275 grains of Black and 875 grain ball shoots well with 65 grains BD.
original load of 330 grains black and 1000 grain ball shoots well with 85 grains BD.
PM me if needed as I rarely look at this thread.
For what it's worth…..
Cal

Cal, Check your PM! Thanks!

Dixon's Muzzleloader Shop, near Kempton, PA had the proper wads, and information regarding which wads to use for loading CBC brass shotshells.

The only thing they did not carry were the Mylar sheets, to make "shot protectors" that fit on top of the felt wad. I can get them someplace, or cut the shot cup off a conventional plastic wad.

The nitro wad, and felt wads are 11 ga, while the overshot wad is 10 ga., as this was the recommendation at Dixon's.

Hopefully, before Christmas, I will have patterned some loads.

Slowly, but surely...

Do you really "need" a shotcup?
If you're loading steel or tungsten then the answer is yes.
I just measured a wad and it is @ .720" but a brass case is something like .770".
The thing is that if you use a shotcup it will be to small for the case when it fits the barrel and vise versa.
Brass shells were never made for shot cup use, plain as that. Wads and lead column will squeeze as they enter the barrel and then again in the choke.

Dane, what you say is partially true.

Sources that I have checked before entering into this experiment agree that some sort of "shot cup" or plastic barrier between the shot and the barrel is beneficial to patterning, reducing shot deformation.

Back in the day, before plastic wads, they just loaded without, cleaned the barrels of lead, and accepted the best patterns they could get. They were also shooting a softer lead than the hardened shot we have today.

After plastics were developed for shotshell reloading, it was considered a definite improvement.

During the time that Brass shells were being replaced by plastic hull shells, some old timers (like my Grandfather) still used the brass, and started experimenting with Herter's/Alcan plastic wads.

The Mylar sheets were available, cut to the proper length of the inside diameter, rolled so they could be inserted over the felt wad, and allowed to "relax" to fit shot area. Since Mylar sheets were not always handy, guys like Grandpa took the plastic wads they had, cut off the cushion part, and dropped the cup over top of the felt wad, allowing the petals to expand against the inside of the shell, and then fill with shot... not a perfect fit, but they seemed to think it was better than nothing.

I will, at some time, acquire the Mylar sheets, and try them, to compare patterning between the Win AA shot cup, and nothing at all. But, to get the ball rolling, I figured I would give this a try.

I loaded 5 shells last night, with different loads of Unique powder, Nitro card, Felt wad, altered Win AA cup, and 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot, and see what happens on paper. The WAA12 wad cup was a perfect fit for the shot (column height), and over shot card, provided I didn't lean too hard on the seating tool. Shot card was then glued into place with Elmer's Glue.

There was approx. 1/2 in of shell left above the shot card, but that is not a concern at this time.

So, I told all that just to say, You may very well be right... Let's see!!

Well, A quick update on the brass shell project.

All loads are using 1 1/8 ozs of 7 1/2 shot.

Using the CBC Brass shells, I have found that Alliant Unique powder will not burn properly, nor perform well enough for use. I have tried various wad combinations using 11ga, and 10ga over powder wads, and over shot wads, and some with plastic shot cups, some without. None were able to overcome the poor burning situation.

Alliant Red Dot powder, did work as expected, although I have only tried one loading of that powder to date. It was a load listed in the Ballistic Products booklet on Reloading Brass Shotshells.

Some general observations regarding the loading of CBC shells;

Wad integrity is more important than wad pressure. If getting the 100 lbs of pressure on the nitro wad causes deformation of the wad, opt for less pressure.

Use of the plastic wad cup had no adverse affect on the powder performance. While the last few loads of Unique were loaded without the plastic wad cup, the deterioration of powder burn was attributed to the increase in nitro wad deformation, not the use, or lack of use, of the plastic cup.

Finally, There has been measurable expansion of the brass shells, (2-4 thousandths of an inch) using both powders.

The CBC shell is tapered, wider at the base, and narrower at the top.

There have been no problems with extraction. I have not reloaded any of the fired shells, as I started with a full box of 25, and will continue using the unfired brass until all fired.

Now that I have confirmed that Red Dot works, I will begin load development to determine best patterning, and start recording velocities.

That's all for now!!

What about duplexing?
In my 12 bore rifle i duplex when using slow powders.
5 grains of fast pistol powder under a disc made from cigarette rolling paper, then the normal charge.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
What about duplexing?
In my 12 bore rifle i duplex when using slow powders.
5 grains of fast pistol powder under a disc made from cigarette rolling paper, then the normal charge.

Dane, I have load data for duplex loads in some of the older black powder cartridges, such as the 45-70 Gov. That may be an option, but I would contend that use of a single powder is preferable.

It is also possible that a 1 3/8 or 1 1/2 oz load would allow Unique to work.

At this time, I will do some load development with 1 1/8 oz loads, and then start working up heavier loads. I will familiarize myself with Red Dot and brass shells, as it may simply be all I need for target and light hunting loads.

I am guessing that, by the time I get around to developing heavier loads, there may be some lab-tested smokeless powder loads published for brass shells.

Those MagTech shells are only for Black Powder. You should not try using them with smokeless since it is not safe. Two totally different animals.

If you want to shoot brass shells look for some Alcan brass hulls or buy some RMC hulls.

Just a heads up.

quote:

Originally posted by dukxdog:
Those MagTech shells are only for Black Powder. You should not try using them with smokeless since it is not safe. Two totally different animals.

If you want to shoot brass shells look for some Alcan brass hulls or buy some RMC hulls.

Just a heads up.

Dukxdog,

Prior to purchasing the CBC shells, I did some research, and asked some folks who have used them. Consensus was, that it was safe to load the shells with smokeless powder.

I am curious about the difference between pressure generated by black powder vs pressure generated by smokeless powder.

I understand that the semi-balloon head used in the CBC shells works better with black powder loadings than smokeless.

Certainly, smokeless powder is capable of making greater pressure than black powder, when compared by volume. But, if it takes 9000 psi to safely push 1 1/8 oz of shot to 1100 fps, how would that same pressure from smokeless be more hazardous?

Many of the loads published in the Ballistics Products book are way over 1 1/8 ozs of shot, with data using over 2 oz of shot, and are using up to 4 dram loads of black powder. I will not be going to that extreme, regardless of powder used.

If you have any links regarding reports of CBC brass shotshell failures due to loading average shotshell loads. I would be very interested in reading them.

I would agree that RCM shells are a much more desirable shell, with price being the only inhibiting factor.

Sorry for the delay in posting, but the weather has been hindering my efforts, as was expected. It would be great to have a range out my back door, but that is not my situation. A bad day at the range is still better than a good day at work!

I have shot through the box of 25 shells, and have finally begun getting some promising results.

Still more testing to do to confirm repeatability. I have 3 shells loaded, waiting for a good day to chronograph them.

I am using a Win Model 1300 Black Shadow with a 3" chamber. It was a good choice, as I have had numerous duds, and wads were left in the barrel. It's easy to take apart at the range, check it, and clear it. I also believe the 3 in chamber will help to keep pressures lower, all things being equal.

The brass shells are CBC brand, 12 ga, 2 1/2".

The powder that has been giving the best results has been Alliant Red Dot. Initially I started with Unique, but did not get reliable ignition. For my purposes, a faster powder was needed, and Red Dot is beginning to perform well. After I begin getting reliable results with Red Dot, I may resume development with Unique again.

The shot is still 1 1/8oz of 7 1/2.

The most difficult part of the project, is finding the proper wad combination that provides enough resistance to allow smokeless powder to burn efficiently. I am currently getting best results with 10 gauge wads and cards.

Velocities have been hovering around 700 - 775 fps using 18grs of Red Dot, 1 10 ga Nitro card, 1-10ga Felt wad, and 1-10ga over shot card.

Best velocity I got so far was 824 fps, using 19grs of Red Dot, two 1/2" felt wads, one 10 ga- one 11 ga, on top of the Nitro card, instead of one, and one 10 ga over shot card, glued in place with water glass. Repeatability with this load will be checked next time at the range.

I did side by side comparisons between Elmer's Glue and Water Glass. The Water Glass is giving better ignition results, and all shells will be loaded using it for the near future.

Finally, testing is supporting the technique of applying about 50lbs of pressure to the combined wad column. I tried applying the pressure to each card and wad, but that alone did not improve ignition.

In fact, it seemed that deformation of the Nitro card from pressing hard, caused an increase in duds. So, I now push the nitro card slowly till it seats against the powder and stop. I complete loading the shell, and apply an estimated 50 lbs of pressure to the complete wad column, and then apply the Water Glass.

The next batch of development will be done with the once fired shells.

Things worked out, and I was able to get to the range for more testing.

Here are the results:

All loads using 19 gr of Alliant Red Dot, and 1 1/8oz of 7 1/2 shot; Over Shot Card glued with Water Glass, using CBC brass shells, once fired, Federal Large Pistol Primers, Approx 50lbs of pressure applied to entire wad column

Chronograph set at 9 ft from firing line.



3 shells loaded to confirm repeatability

1-10ga Nitro card, 1-10ga and 1-11ga Felt, and 1-10ga OSC

Velocities in order of shots, starting with a clean barrel; 627 fps, 858 fps, 906 fps.

Next load: 1 shell

1 Plastic Gas Seal wad, .755 dia., 1-10ga and 1-11ga Felt Wads, 1-10ga OSC

Velocity; 1118 fps

Next load: 1 shell

1-10ga Nitro, 2-10ga Felt wads, 1-10ga OSC

Velocity 926 fps


Next batch,
3 shells using the PGS wad loading

1 shell using 11ga Nitro, 2-11ga Felts, and 10ga OSC

1 shell using 1-10ga Nitro, 2-11ga Felts, 1-10ga OSC

Went to range today. Checked the following loads out:

3 shells - PGS .755 wad, 1-10ga Felt 1-11ga Felt, 1-10ga OSC

Velocities, starting out of clean barrel: 1169 fps, 925 fps, 825 fps

Not the consistency I was looking for.

Next test load;

1 shell - 1-11ga Nitro, 2-11ga Felt, 1-10ga OSC

Velocity; 848fps

Better performance than I expected... will try testing this load for repeatability

Last Load;

1 shell; 1-10ga Nitro, 2-11ga Felt, and 1-10ga OSC

Velocity; 865fps

All loadings are using 19 grs of Alliant Red Dot.

Next loading, I will test a few shells at 19.5grs to see how it affects velocity.


So far, there have been no visual indications of the shells expanding.

Today I measured the shell at 1/4" up from the base, before and after firing. No difference in any of the shells.

Since using two felt wads, problems with hangfires and misfires seem to have ceased.

Take a look at this info (big file)

www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/NRA_IRH.pdf

Pages 82, 84 - 85

In case you can't retrieve the info the load data recommends 78 lbs wad seating pressure using Red dot. This data is for 1950's reloading practices.

quote:

Originally posted by boltshooter:
Take a look at this info (big file)

www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/NRA_IRH.pdf

Pages 82, 84 - 85

In case you can't retrieve the info the load data recommends 78 lbs wad seating pressure using Red dot. This data is for 1950's reloading practices.

Thank you, boltshooter!

I also noticed that they recommend using two Nitro wads to get enough resistance for Red Dot. I often wondered if that would be a safe practice.

I am so glad there is some of the old info to be found!

Remarkably, Over the past 2 weeks, I have gotten to the range for load testing. Stats for the last two loadings are following.

Descriptive Statistics: C1 PGS wads with 2 11ga Felts 19gr Red Dot

Count,5 Mean,721.0 SE Mean,53.1 StDev 118.7 Variance 14098.5

Minimum 591.0 Q1 591.5 Median 795.0 Q3 813.5 Maximum 825.0 Range 234.0

and:

Descriptive Statistics: C1 2 11ga Nitro with 2 11ga Felts 19gr Red Dot

Count 5 Mean 641.4 SE Mean 53.8 StDev 120.3 Variance 14461.3
Minimum 435.0 Q1 542.5 Median 679.0 Q3 721.5 Maximum 743.0 Range 308.0

One thing I have noticed, although the use of 2 Nitro wads had lower velocities than the PGS wads, the grouping of velocities was closer. There was one shot out of 5 that I would consider a squib that caused the Min of 435 fps.

The PGS wads generally produce higher velocities, but the spread of velocities is larger.

My next loading to test, 2-11ga Nitro wads, 2-11ga Felts, increase powder to 19.5 grs of Red Dot.

There still has been no measurable expansion of the fired shells, at 1/2" from the face of the base.

Also, I don't know why the cut and past of the stats look correct in the typing window, but do not align properly when I post them... Sorry for that.

Here is a graph of the 19 gr Red Dot, Wad Combinations, and Velocities, to date.

Just click on link, and then click on the "magnifying glass" to enlarge.

Went to range today, to test some shells that have been sitting on the bench for weeks. They are 19.5 gr Red Dot loads. During the time they were sitting there, it seems the Over Shot Cards, and the water glass used to hold them in place, pushed up just a little. The movement was barely noticeable, but there were some that had some distortion that caught my eye.

Well, at the range, I set up the Chrony, and fired about 4 shells, and they were all below expected velocities. Then, I had a squib load that shot the Chrony and busted it's face.

This project may take longer than anticipated!

Have been shooting brass for some time now, and a good deer load I have is 680 grain conical bullet 1/8 cardboard wad from BPI, 1/2" fiber wad Rem. R12L petals cutoff and flat side up, then 28 grains of 4756. Quite mild, and accurate. These are in CBC cases.or old Winchester cases

quote:

Originally posted by MotelAlpha:
Have been shooting brass for some time now, and a good deer load I have is 680 grain conical bullet 1/8 cardboard wad from BPI, 1/2" fiber wad Rem. R12L petals cutoff and flat side up, then 28 grains of 4756. Quite mild, and accurate. These are in CBC cases.or old Winchester cases

How do you keep the conical in place?

It seems I need to find an adhesive that holds the over the shot card in place over a long period of time.

Two ways, the old school is to put 4 crimps into the top of the bullet, like a star crimp with just 4 indentations, and now I bought a 12 bore crimper which puts a factory like crimp to the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by MotelAlpha:
Two ways, the old school is to put 4 crimps into the top of the bullet, like a star crimp with just 4 indentations, and now I bought a 12 bore crimper which puts a factory like crimp to the bullet.

Yes, RCBS had a die that puts a slight radius on the mouth of the case. I am currently using shot, so over shot card is the only way I can go. I will need to try some different adhesives to keep the card in place, as the water glass has only been keeping the card in place for a few days, at best.

Duco cement will be next one I try.

Mike I have not had to do that as with the cards/wads etc, the bullet just sticks enough up to get pushed and the rim crimped all in one motion.The plastic wad keep enough pressure up on the crimp, but you can slightly move it with your thumb, this is normal.

Duco cement has provided a good seal and adhesion on shells I loaded two months ago. They have been loosely stored in a canvas bag and show no signs of top card separation. During this period I have banged the shell (open end down) to check the adhesion with no problems thus far.

I also wanted to use water glass when starting to load brass shells (the old time way). Many articles I've read recommend Duco.

Probably available at your local hardware store.

Boltshooter, I just bought some fresh Duco Cement, and have loaded 6 shells, two shells for each glue (Duco, Elmers, Water Glass) for side by side comparisons.

The new Chrony came about a week ago, but I will not use it till I get rid of the squib problem. This new Chrony is just too nice to shoot!!

Did some testing during the last few days.

Side x side comparisons of glues for over the shot wads resulted in Duco being the best, Elmer's was a close 2nd, and Waterglass came loose after a few weeks of sitting on the bench.
The bad part, all of the loads were squibs. I was using 11ga wads.

Next, I loaded 3 shells using 2/10ga Nitros, 2/10ga 1/2" felts, and 1/10ga OSC, glued in with Duco.

All went bang as they should. Good, clean burn.

The next combination I will try, is 1PGS, 1/10ga Nitro, 2/10ga Felts, and a 10ga OSC with Duco.

All loads are using 19grs of Red Dot, 1 1/8oz of shot, and Federal Large Pistol Primers.

If I have eliminated the squibs, I will try using the Chrony again.

Shot 3 shells using the PGS wads, They worked very well, no unburned powder in the barrel at all.

I was able to measure .002"-.004" of expansion in the OD of brass case, about 1/2" up from the base. This is a first.

When the rain breaks around here, I will set up the Chrony and get some velocities.

I am feeling very optimistic about this load.