I had been thinking for some time about getting into shotshell reloading. The thing that nudged me over the edge was a pretty good deal on a Ponsness/Warren shotshell reloader. I've read that under no circumstances should one interchange any components so, of course, I had to try it. The above shells were reloaded with identical components except for the shell. The recipie for the 12 gauge 2.75 inch shells was:

Primer: Winchester 209
Wad: Claybusters equivalent of the WAA12F114
Powder: 35.5 grains of Blue Dot (Blue Dot from the days it was marketed by Hercules in a cardboard can for less than $16)
Shot: 1.25 oz. of No. 5 extra hard lead shot
Shell: Was published for Winchester but in addition to that I used hulls of Remington, Federal and Estate.



Initially I had problems getting the crimps right using the Winchester shells marked with a W. Some of the crimps came out really weird and I found it almost impossible to get a good crimp without getting a wrinkle in the case. The guy at Cabela's who I though knew more than I, had recommended Winchester shells as being best for reloading. I have to disagree; every other shell I tried was better with, in my opinion, Federal being the best. I had no problem with wrinkles in the shell, weird crips or collapse of a shell with any except the Winchester ones.

For years I owned no shotgun at all. I finally bought one which I didn't shoot very much. In a new place of employment in the year 2000, the boys invited me out sporting clay shooting. I only hit 2 clays during the whole session. My gag gift for Christmas that year was a box of 100 clay pidgeons and a plastic thingy to throw them with.

I bought a foot operated clay thrower a couple of years ago and got it out today and went to work on the rest of my clays. I broke a bunch of them with my 25 reloaded shells which worked great out of my Encore test mule. Even the wrinkled shells worked fine though I'm not sure how they'd do in a semiauto.

I think I have 4 clays left. I may have to buy more.

Almost all hulls can be reloaded.
The biggest difference will be how many times they can be reloaded.

Of the ones you started with the Rem Nitro or STS will last the longest.
The Gunclubs are good but they have a steel base not brass.
The AA's work great also. The others are probably best to load once and let them fly.

When the gauge changes so does the reliability of the hull.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Lozano:
Of the ones you started with the Rem Nitro or STS will last the longest.
The Gunclubs are good but they have a steel base not brass.
The AA's work great also.

Thank-you. That's good to know.

I've reloaded a lot of 12G shotgun shells for both competition clay target shooting and hunting and also chronographed various loads with different components.
It is generally recommended by manufacturers and commercial loaders of shotgun shells that components should be carefully matched and not loaded willy nilly. I found that changing primers did not make too much difference to loads but interchanging cases and wads does.
Not to say you cannot use different cases but just not interchangeably and other components will need to be matched or the results on target or in the field will not be consistent.

My all-time favourite load for clay target and hunting was a Win AA case, a WinAA12NZ wad for 1⅛oz, Winchester or Fiocchi primer and 22.0grs of Vectan AS powder. This load chronographed at an average of 1310fps MV and was the cleanest burning load bar none that I have ever used. It was fast and effective with chilled #7 shot on clays and birds.
A good crimp is important and it should be deep enough to completely close the star. Crumpled cases indicates a wrong or less than ideal combination of components. To me all your crimps could be a little deeper, some are showing the stars not completely crimped closed with a shallow crimp. Your 35.5gr load of Blue Dot powder will take up quite a bit of space along with 1¼oz of #5 shot. For best results on clays you really need #7, #7.5, or #8 shot.

I agree with a lot of what you said. The Winchester hulls were what the loading manual called for and they're the ones that get the wrinkles and weird crimps.

As for powder, I've found Blue Dot to burn very dirty but, with the current shortage of powders, I don't have a lot of options. The only other powders I have suitable for 12 gauge reloading are Longshot and Unique.

I know smaller shot would be better for shooting clays but my shells will probably be used more for shooting things like crows, raccoons, etc. I like to practice with what I'm going to hunt with. Actually, if it had been available, I would probably be using number 3 or 4 shot.

I am not satisfied with my crimps but they're a lot better than my first attempts.

You are probably using a load developed for the old AA compression formed case with the new AA HS hull.

Pressure wise they are the same per Winchester but you are having the typical problems between the two.

Try loading some with wads made for the HS hull and it will look better.

Here are some random thoughts that may or may not help, take them for what it’s worth.

Not all hulls are made the same and interchanging them like you have introduces variables, in reloading we try to control these as much as possible by making recipes specific, hence producing more consistent performance shell to shell.

Your data is no doubt for the old CFAA hull this was a one piece hull with a much larger capacity than the current AAHS hull. Despite the published data that they are interchangeable, those that load them know they are different. With the AAHS hull you will find that wads meant to contain a given load of shot usually crimp best when an ⅛ oz. less shot is used (example: use the WAA12 with 1 oz. rather than 1⅛ oz.) for good crimps.

Your choice of the WAA12F1 is fine for tapered hulls like the Rem & Win AA’s but less than optimal in straight walled hulls like the Federal Top Gun or the Estate. The base wad diameter of the F1 is smaller making it less efficient in straight walled hulls. Though they work, the efficiency is diminished. You would be better served with a wad like a 12S4 clone.

I hear you on powder availability; I have been trying to locate 8# of Alliant 20/28 for 6 mo. now. Your choice of Blue Dot is far from optimal in this application. It takes a significant amount of powder in this recipe and this uses up hull capacity making crimping more difficult. It appears you are over stuffing in the Rem’s (tented crimps), and crushing the Win’s. The old adage of “10 lbs. of s**t in a 5 lb. bag” comes to mind. One thing you will find is that just because a load is published doesn’t mean it fits & crimps well. In addition as you have found Blue Dot is dirty unless the chamber pressure is high. One more thing you may find is that Blue Dot is somewhat temperature sensitive and can give issues in cold weather. Often you will see the use of hot primers like the Fed 209A and CCI 209M with Blue Dot to prevent this.

I have been an instructor and coach for over 20 yrs. now and though it’s fun to touch off some heavy thumpers from time to time it’s best to save them for the field. Practice with some target loads that allow you to shoot up several boxes without a bruised shoulder or developing a flinch. You can concentrate on working on your lead, swing and follow through. With a little shopping you should be able to locate some Red Dot, Green Dot, Promo, 700X or Clay Dot its’ been showing up on shelves and these will be more efficient for target loads. Then stick with one hull for consistency and repeatable crimps and safety. The Rem Gun Club, STS, Nitro 27, Shur Shot as Sport Load hulls all load the same, they are of one piece construction and will give you 10 good reloads. Try a load of 1 or ⅞ oz. for practice with #8 or #7½ shot. Once you get that PW set up on a good load it should crank out beautiful reloads.

The data I've been using is from the current Lyman manual.

There is no doubt my crimps could use some improving. I'll have to explore the wad thing. I appreciate the advice on wads, crimping, etc.

There is a sporting goods store near where I live that has about the best stock of reloading supplies in probably at least 100 miles. I bought my wads and primers there but they had NO shotgun powder of any description. The Columbus, OH Cabela's also hasn't had any in months. Hopefully better days are coming; I'm ready to buy an 8 pounder of something.

Shotgun recoil doesn't bother me at all even with heavy loads. It probably has something to do with bench rest shooting things like a 378 Weatherby. Of course, I've never shot 12 gauge 3.5 inch shells or a 10 gauge; they might be different.

I am sure you will work things out.

Unfortunately Vectan AS powder seems to be hard to come by, some have never heard of it. French made and still advertised on their website, I used a whole lot of it back in my trap shooting days and also used the same load for duck shooting with great success, better than most of my compatriots when we were out shooting game.

I am currently using the last of my supply of AS powder loading cast bullets for my 404J rifle (AS powder is advertised as suitable for reduced rifle loads)

It is incredibly clean burning in shotgun and cast loads leaving nothing but a bit of discolouration in the barrel, not a sackful of granules and soot that some powders leave. I also used a bit of Dupont 700X powder when it was available and it was quite a goood powder.

Some factory loaded shotgun ammo has dirty powder, Winchester for one I did not like. Dirty powder is not so much an issue with O/U and SxS shotguns but can be with semis and pumps which can get fouled up overtime.

quote:

Your choice of the WAA12F1 is fine for tapered hulls like the Rem & Win AA’s but less than optimal in straight walled hulls like the Federal Top Gun or the Estate. The base wad diameter of the F1 is smaller making it less efficient in straight walled hulls. Though they work, the efficiency is diminished. You would be better served with a wad like a 12S4 clone

Good advice.

Load data for tapered hulls differs from straight walled (Reiffenhauser) hulls.

Tapered hulls have less internal capacity than straight walled so using powder data for a straight wall in a tapered hull should lead to higher pressures.

A problem with shotshells is they don't show signs of high pressure like brass does.

I knew the shot bushing that was supposed to throw 1 1/4 oz. of shot was throwing a little light and had been weighing each powder charge pending arrival of more powder bushings.

I found that the powder bushing that per Ponsness/Warren was supposed to throw 36 grains of Blue Dot was actually throwing a bit over 37 grains. It's good I didn't take that one on faith.

In my bushing collection I managed to find a shot bushing that throws a little less than 1 3/8 oz of shot and a powder bushing that throws about 2/10ths of a grain less of Blue Dot than the manual calls for. I also went to a different wad and the crimps do look a lot better.

the recommendation not to substitute shotgun components isn't about the looks of the shell when you get done. If you found a recipe to load a particular shell, it also gives you a pressure you can expect out of the load. Substituting hulls can change the outcome of the pressure. Shotgun shells do not give you any signs that your load is approaching dangerous limits like brass shell loading does. And that is the reason for not substituting components. There are tables you can look at to substitute primers and there are wads that are built to sub for factory wads.

You should be able to interchange some components but only if within recommended limits of a true and tested reloading guide.
There are base-wad issues with some hulls and other have an internal taper which yet other will not.

I don't care for the new HS AA hull since there is a separate plastic base-wad and that damn thing can get sucked into the barrel and raise Hell.

I like gun clubs but the base is steel and a bit tougher to cycle in a Ponsness-Warren press. The STS hulls are the best, to me.

I shoot in excess of 10,000 12 ga shells per year and love to reload.My pet load is: Titewad powder, CB Lightning wads and 7/8 oz shot loads. They break every target but much lighter on recoil and cheaper to load.

Okay, that post was too long. Sorry.
Zeke

IMHO the hulls worth reloading are the Remington Unibody (one piece) hulls (Gun Club, STS, Shur Shot). The Winchester AA hull used to be the hull of choice but since the good folks at Winchester decided to modify same a few years ago they go into the dumpster with all the other brands of hulls.

When I load target loads (which is the bulk of my shotshell reloading, I will get a bit philosophical about substituting components. At 8,500 PSI I can have some variance.

When I load 11,000 PSI hunting loads, I stick to proven recipes and this does include primers.

The use of 1 1/4 Oz shot and Blue dot powder is for hi-pressure hunting loads.....not at all for clay target shooting. Your clay busting will improve markedly if you use a much lighter load. Yes, yes, I know you're having trouble with powder availability but there are a lot of powders suitable for cay busting......and I'd recommend you find one and then use a 1.0 Oz load.

BTW.....I fully agree that federal is the hull of choice.....and estate is made by Federal and I've substituted them back and forth but for tsrget loads only. Yes, these target loads are also the loads of choice for dove and quail too.....and you can add rabbit and squirrel to that list.....Heck, I've shot a lot of pheasants with target loads and they work fine.....but late season hunting sometimes makes me want stronger loads.

Sir....it's your hands, face, eyes, and gun....load em any way you want.....but I'm strongly going to suggest you modify your thinking back to the advice of sticking to recipies until you have a lot more experience under your belt.

The crimp is probably why it is advised not to interchange components. I usually collect a whole bunch of one brand shell and perfect the crimp with that shell. Most shells are not the same internally and externally so I have found that once I get a good crimp I load the whole lot and move on. Sometimes it is necessary to add a few pellets with your fingers to get a nice crimp. I have used a 10mm punch to punch out cardboard discs to place under the shot in order to get a good crimp. I have also had to use a 32gr wad with 35gr shot to get a good crimp. Shotshell reloading is very forgiving if you can keep your powder charge within spec AND can get a good crimp. Me, I use intermediate powder charges and do whatever I need to get a good crimp. I also noticed that a lower charge and tight crimp give better patterns.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Sir....it's your hands, face, eyes, and gun....load em any way you want.....but I'm strongly going to suggest you modify your thinking back to the advice of sticking to recipies until you have a lot more experience under your belt.

Well, I'm not exactly an inexperienced reloader. Also, as you no doubt know, many reloading manuals for metallic cartridges, maybe all of them, advise sticking scrupulously to the recipie and most experienced reloaders ignore that advice.

Loading shotshells is no different than loading rifle ammo.

We have 4 Ponsness Warren loading machines - one is set for each gage.

We have loaded thousands and thousands of ammo on them, and they work great.

One thing you need to keep an eye on is the powder shut off slide.

With some powders, it seems to work itself into a party closed position. In which case you will be dropping less powder than the bushing does.

generally speaking the best shells for reloading are the "Target" shells, because the manufacturers are expecting these to be reloaded, repeatedly

I literally have a barrel each of Peters "blue magic"
Winchester AA, and federal "Gold Medal" hulls

Generally they were reloaded with a 209 primer the same Mfg as the hull, a Windjammer target wad, and a charge of betweer 18 & 19.5grs of Red Dot underneath 1-1/8oz of either #7-1/2
or #8 shot

I ran through tens of thousands of these shells through the latter half of the 1980s

Loading hunting loads is far more exacting and an entirely
different game from low pressure target loads

quote:

With some powders, it seems to work itself into a party closed position. In which case you will be dropping less powder than the bushing does.

I've had this happen with IMR-800X when loading shells in 20 Ga. The powder is somcourse that it "bridges" in the powder bushing because I'm trying to throw too littler powder.....not for the shotshell, but for the size hole in the bushing.

I usually wind up weighing each powder charge in this case as the IMR-800X makes a very excellent 2 3/4" 20 Ga load for upland game birds.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Loading shotshells is no different than loading rifle ammo.

With all due respect Saeed, I disagree with you on this one.

With centerfire rifle loads we have brass cases that permit some evidence of pressure.....also we have guns capable of holding immense pressure greater than the brass we're loading for.

With the shotshells we don't have this "work up" potential to see excess pressure before it's too late.

With brass rifle loads the primers are all quite similar but this isn't the case with shotshell primers.....changing primers in shotshells with some (I'm thinking primarily the Federal 209-A) can lead to considerable extra pressurea and we'll never know it as there are no pressure signs with shotshell until we damage a gun....or possibly worse!

Shotshells are loaded with much faster burning powder than typical rifle rounds.....

I occasionally load steel shot and use a mica dust to dry lube the wad.....This allows for greater volume to become available to the faster burning powders.

The saving grace in shotshell loading is that shotguns (I'm told) are tested with double the pressure of the heaviest SAAMI loaded round.

As to having experience with rifle reloading.....this does not completely transfer to shotshell reloading. It's a different discipling and needs to be played with different rules.....again....thank goodness for (relatively) strong guns!

My point we do a lot of experimenting with rifle loads.

With shotgun loads, I doubt that many do.

You pick a load from the book, and you load it and shoot it.


At least that is what I do.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My point we do a lot of experimenting with rifle loads.

With shotgun loads, I doubt that many do.

You pick a load from the book, and you load it and shoot it.


At least that is what I do.

PRECISELY

I do take small latitudes with target (low pressure) loads .but the magnum style loads are byt the book only.

Just remembered one problem I found when reloading shotshells and it affected the crimp depth (too deep, this was with high 'brass' base cases which were brass coated steel.

On the final stage where crimping is applied, my Lyman loader runs the loaded cartridge up into the crimp die through a sizing ring so that the base is sized at the same time as the crimp is applied. No problem with cases with true brass bases or low steel bases but the high steel base is much harder to eject through the sizing ring and it is the crimping rod which does the ejection, hence over crimping is the result.

I got around this by making up a longer rod and then sized the empty brass as an extra first step on all these high steel base cases ejecting them with the longer rod.

This was only when re loading shells for some mates who insisted on using the heavy duck loads manufactured with the high base cases.

I stuck to low brass based Win AA compression formed cases for competition and hunting.