I usually shoot Remington sure shot heavy dove during dove season, and often at clays. Now that i am going to start reloading, i was wondering whether to keep shooting those, and try to reload them, or to go with the new style AA's or Remington STS's. Any feedback on "sure shot" hulls or just general hull info would be much appreciated.

The general consensus is that the best hull to reload are the Remington STS/Nitro's, with their second tier Gun Club, Shurshot, Gameload hulls being the second best. They will last about as long, but the plastic is a little less pliable. Construction is identical.

After that, it's Federal Gold Medals and then the AA's. JMO, Dutch.

I don't like the new style AAs -- they have a two-piece internal construction and require different wads than the older AAs. I do like the older AAs a lot, but I think the new Remington hulls may actually be better.

You can use the same components and loading data for the Remington STS, the Gun Club, and the Game Load hulls. I'm not sure, but I suspect that the Remington heavy dove hulls could be loaded with the same wads and loading data. But if they have 6 point instead of 8 point crimps, you'll have trouble with them unless you use an 8 point crimp starter.

In fact, for 12 gauge loads, I usually use Winchester wads (or the Claybuster clones) and Winchester 209 primers for both all Remington hulls as well as the older Winchester AA ones. The loading data can also be used interchangeably.

I don't care for the Federal Gold Medal hulls -- their internal dimensions are a bit different (longer) and you need to use Federal wads designed for Federal hulls to get good crimps with them. Also, the plastic of the Federal hull seems to me to be less stiff than those of Remington or Winchester ones.

In 20 and 28 gauges, I found that you need to use authentic Remington wads with Remington hulls in order to get good results. With Winchester 20 and 28 ga. hulls, use Winchester wads (or Claybuster clones).

I load light loads in 12 gauge for skeet and trap, so I'm not so familiar with heavier loads designed for hunting. In fact, I load 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. loads in 12 gauge, and load them down to about 1125 to 1145 f.p.s. You don't need extra power (higher velocity) for clays shooting (because any hit counts as a hit) and the heavier loads serve only to make you more tired and beaten up because you are being pummeled with greater recoil (kick) with each shot.

It seems to me that you might as well use factory loads for hunting (after all, how many boxes are you likely to use in hunting season -- probably not more than 4 or 5, except maybe for dove hunting) and do your reloading for trap, skeet, and sporting clays.

I'm rather fond of the Federal GM; Downrange wads makes a nice selection of clone straight walled wads that makes them just as good as the tapered hulls.

For heavy field loads, there is no better. JMO, Dutch.

In 12 & 20 ga the Remington one piece hull in it various incarnations cannot be beat IMO [STS, Nitro 27, Sure Shot, Sport Loads etc] They all load using the same data. There is a wide variety of good wads to choose from, of late I am liking the Down Range XL-1.

The new AA hull is not all bad, it is a bit more picky about loader settings and is easy to wrinkle. Adjust the crimp starter low to almost close the hull then be careful not to over crimp / set too deep. Once you get your machine set up you should find Rem's & AA's to load equaly well. Older CF AA data works just as well old to new and no special wad is required for the new AA's. I can get +8 reloads from the new AA's.

In 28 ga there is none better than the AAHS, you can easily get 10 or more reloads. The STS hull is a poor second. you can get 4 or 5 reloads before the mouths of the hull get all crispy and split. For the 28 ga AAHS you will need either the AA28HS wad, CB 5034HS wad or Rem PT28 wad and a good dense powder like Longshot or Alliant 20/28. Unique and Universal Clays work too.

the 12 ga Federal Gold Metal hull is a good one. It is a one piece hull that needs a wad designed for straight walled hulls, there are plenty of clones and others that work great. I get +8 reloads from them the problem is that I seldom see them as pick ups. Do not confuse the GM with Federal's paper base wad promo hulls, you might get 3 reloads at best.

I reload both AA & STS hulls. I prefer the Remington hulls the most. I get the best loads with them.

Reading the above, I'm not sure whether or not it answers my question or not regarding a heap of old(ish) Remington cases I have been given recently. Some are in green & yellow Remington boxes with Express plastic on the side, they are a low (?) brass (.45") blue plastic ribbed case with Victor ,power piston on the side. The others are loose & seem to be very similar but high brass (.83") with Hi Velocity power piston on the side.They all have Remington Peters 12 GA head stamps. They are in good condition & if they're usuable I'd like to. Problem is we can't get Remington wads here in NZ as loose components, so my query is.
Can I use Winchester WAA12 type wads in these cases or do I need to use a parallel sided case wad (Gualandi type) in them? The base wad height seems to be the same in all of them & is deeply dished much like in Winchester AA type cases.
Steve

Shinzo, many manufacturers contract their overseas production, so there is no way we can say for sure. For example, European AA's are actually a Reifenhause (straight wall) type hull.

Cut a couple open. If they are a "one piece" hull with the plastic getting thicker on the bottom, you can use AA components. If they are a straight tube with a separate basewad in the bottom, you have a Reifenhauser hull, and you need appropriate wads. HTH, Dutch.

Low base or low brass, high base or high brass, doesn't matter. They are interchangeable as far as load recipes goes.

Shinzo, it sounds like you have some old Remington SP hulls. Cut one open; does it have a pressed fiber base wad? The latter R-P version had a black plastic base wad, in either case they should not be one piece all plastic construction. These hulls load more like a straight walled case, like the Federal, Chedite etc. The older pressed fiber base wad Express type hulls require the smaller 57* type primer. The Remingtom Express / Peters Victor hulls did not reload well and you might get 3 reloads at best. I would trash them as the effort to reload them may well be more than they are worth. If you have access to a Lyman reloading manual it shows cross section views of various hulls helping to ID them.

Scout Master 54

quote:

Originally posted by Scout Master 54:
Shinzo, it sounds like you have some old Remington SP hulls. Cut one open; does it have a pressed fiber base wad? The latter R-P version had a black plastic base wad, in either case they should not be one piece all plastic construction. These hulls load more like a straight walled case, like the Federal, Chedite etc. The older pressed fiber base wad Express type hulls require the smaller 57* type primer. The Remingtom Express / Peters Victor hulls did not reload well and you might get 3 reloads at best. I would trash them as the effort to reload them may well be more than they are worth. If you have access to a Lyman reloading manual it shows cross section views of various hulls helping to ID them.

Scout Master 54

I think you've got them there, especially the bit about the small primers, I don't know if they're even available out here so might just kick for touch on these, thanks one & all.
Steve

Shinzo, the 57* size primer has not been made in many years (about 1985?) the 57* size is .227" in dia. vs the std 209 at .243". Many of us old pack rats have a stash but no hulls to put them in. I still have several thousand. I will admit though that once upon a time we did slowly press 209 size primers into those old Remington hulls. In retrospect it probably wasn't a great idea.

There are far better 12 ga hulls to reload like any Remington 1 piece; STS, Shure Shot, Sport Load, Nitro 27 etc. you'll easily get 8 - 10 reloads. The AAHS isn't too bad once you get the machine tweeked to handle them.

Scout Master 54

quote:

Originally posted by Scout Master 54:
Shinzo, the 57* size primer has not been made in many years (about 1985?) the 57* size is .227" in dia. vs the std 209 at .243". Many of us old pack rats have a stash but no hulls to put them in. I still have several thousand. I will admit though that once upon a time we did slowly press 209 size primers into those old Remington hulls. In retrospect it probably wasn't a great idea.

There are far better 12 ga hulls to reload like any Remington 1 piece; STS, Shure Shot, Sport Load, Nitro 27 etc. you'll easily get 8 - 10 reloads. The AAHS isn't too bad once you get the machine tweeked to handle them.

Scout Master 54

I was given these by an elderly gent whose eyesight now precludes him from shooting. I'm not sure if they've been reloaded or whether he maybe has some primers but if I can't find some then its no big worry, there are plenty ways to come by cheap hulls & for the shotgunning I do ( not a whole heap) its really not an issue, I was mainly keen to use them to keep the faith with Don as it were. Thanks for the advice, at least I can say I know something at the end of the day I didn't at the beginning so it hadn't been wasted, regardless of what my significant other thinks of time spent on AR.
Steve

From your description, it sounds to me like the hulls you have can be loaded with Winchester AA wads. In fact, in 12 gauge I always use Winchester AA wads (or Claybuster clones of AA wads) in both winchester AA and all Remington hulls, and they work very well in both. So my advice would be to try to load your Remington hulls with AA wads and see whether it works. If you get good powder+shot columns and good crimps, that would indicate to me that you've gotten a good load.

As someone else wrote above, the height of the brass is totally immaterial to anything -- brass height is solely a marketing gimmick. You can load the lowest brass hulls with the heaviest loads, and the ones with the highest brass with the lightest loads.

The comments someone made about primer size may or may not matter. I'd get some 209 primers -- Winchester, Remington, Federal, or CCI can be treated as if they are the same (even though they are not exactly the same in terms of the "heat" of the primer) for your purposes. If they work, you're in businss. If they are too large or too small for the primer holes in your hulls, I'd discard those hulls in favor of ones that have the size primer holes that work with standard 209 primers.

If you are loading for a modern break-open type (SxS or O/U double barrel, or single barrel) shotgun, you can shoot the very lightest loads as well as the heaviest ones without any problem. This is usually true for pump guns too. If you are shooting an autoloader, you may have trouble with light loads not cycling the action, especially in cold weather.

I recommend starting with some relatively light target loads in order to get experience loading. After you've loaded for some time, you will get a better sense of what works well for you and what doesn't work so well.

In my opinion, getting a good crimp is quite important. This will make the shell work through any gun's action well, and it is also a signal that you've got your loadng tool adjusted properly and you are using the proper wad and shot charge that fits the hull you are using.

Besides, it means that you have good-looking shells, and that's always a plus.

Lloyd, thanks for that, it fills in some gaps, I've decided to kick for touch on the old RP hulls & concentrate on the better ones I have, which leads me to another problem which you may already have answered. I have generally loaded AA wads in AA hulls & what I refer to as Gualandi wads in Fiochi type hulls. ie straight tubed, separate bass wad hulls, but, I want to make up some buckshot loads using some home cast .311 balls from a Lee double mold. These stack nicely into an AA wad in layers of 3, with an 1 1/8 Oz wad I get 9 & a good crimp, I'm hoping with an 1 1/4 wad I can get 12, but I may have to go to a case with a lower base wad height than AA hulls & if this is a Fiochi type, the wad petals on the Gualandi ones are too thick to allow stacking in 3s. 2 questions raise themselves to me. How much is powder responsible for load height, the powder I have currently is bulky,(slightly more bulky than Clays), if it will make a difference I'll seek out a powder giving a lower bulk for a given load. In measuring their respective diameters, the AA wad over powder cup is about .015" less in diameter than the Gualandi ones. Convention wisdom has it, & I'm guilty of repeating this, that one should not use AAs in straight walled cases. Anyone want to tell me differently. I'm starting to feel that the combustion process would open the wad skirt against the side of the case almost instantly & it would not be too significant. I notice that my Hodgdon manual lists loads for AA wads in straight cases. Sorry to ramble on so.
Steve

Shinzo,

The density of the powder makes a small amount of difference in column height, but you can usually disregard that difference. Hodgdon's Titewad, for example, takes up considerably less space than Alliant Red Dot. When your loading machine pushes the wad down on the powder this tends to compress the powder somewhat. But if you are having trouble with a powder + wad + shot column being too high for the hulls you are using, then trying a more dense powder may solve your problem.

Keep in mind that the tolerances inside shotgun shells are considerably greater than for those in centerfire rifle loads, and the pressures created when shotgun loads are fired are much smaller (approximtely 1/4 to 1/5 the pressures usually created in centerfire rifle loads), so there is a lot more room for variations without creating a problem, especially if you are shooting a modern, strong break-open type shotgun.

I have never loaded buckshot, so I have no special insight into it. On possibility is that, as you mentioned, for buckshot you may want to use a wad that has a larger shot cup, such as the Winchester WAA12F114 wad (it's designed for 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 oz loads in AA cases), or the WAA12R wad, which works for 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 oz loads in AA cases.

If you can get a good wad + shot column and a good crimp with an AA wad in a straight-walled case, I'd go for it, as I think that this would give you a usable load. I'd load a box of them and then shoot them and see how they work.

I think I may have loaded some Fiochi hulls sometime in the past, but I have no strong memory of them.

It's definitely true that some hulls reload much better than others, although almost any hull can be reloaded if you are willing to find what works in and with it. And I wouldn't worry very much about using AA wads in straight walled cases, if the wad is the right height and you get a good crimp on the case. Getting a good strong crimp is important for good ignition of the loads, along with other reasons.