Keep in mind I've never reloaded before and just want to get into it. So this may be a dumb question.

For waterfowl loads could you mix say steel and bismuth or steel and hevi shot in a load? So pretty much you are shooting half steel half heavier non tox loads in each shot.

Remington made some turkey loads at one time which contained a mixed shot load, but there they mixed smaller and larger shot sizes together. Small shot to target the head and neck and larger shot for penetration on body shots. I don't believe mixing shot is a good idea, either by size or type as you suggested, because the times of flight will vary. This isn't much of an issue in turkey hunting because you are not generally shooting at fast moving birds. But it would be a big issue in water fouling because the heavier shot would get to the target a head of the steel shot, lessening the effectiveness of the pattern and reducing its density by a like amount in accordance with the proportion of the heavier shot in the load...Rusty.

I understand what you are saying about the heavier shot being faster but as far as hitting live game would that fraction of a second even matter? At ranges of 40 yards or less I think the diffence wouldn't be noticable to the hit goose. Maybe a 60 yard shot would??

Keep in mind I'm a total beginner with this stuff and I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty much using my common sense with this.

Marcstar,

I would avoid it if you wish to enjoy consistant patterning. whether the difference is size or composition, the difference in time of flight between the two types would cause the pellets to spread indescriminatly as they seperated themselves from the shot column. In simple terms, they would be pushing and shoving each other out of the way, blowing both patterns apart.

While one may see an advantage to a "spreader" load for close range, I believe there are better ways of controlling shot patterns (ie. using the appropriate choke).

What you are saying Mike makes perfect sense. I was thinking pattern might be an issue.

I wonder what it would look like if you tried patterning it just to test it? If you added buffer as they suggest you should with bismuth and I think hevishot would that help the pattern?

So would there be any danger in doing this mix?

quote:

Originally posted by Marcstar:
What you are saying Mike makes perfect sense. I was thinking pattern might be an issue.

I wonder what it would look like if you tried patterning it just to test it? If you added buffer as they suggest you should with bismuth and I think hevishot would that help the pattern?

So would there be any danger in doing this mix?

Use of a buffer does affect pressures. Also, while most loading manuals don't address it, the mixing of two different sized shot would also affect the actual weight of the shot charge due to smaller shot filling in gaps between larger shot. When the spaces are filled tighter, the ability of the shot to pass through the choke is also affected, which could give unexpected pressures.

The Lyman (Edition 3) book has loads which use buffer, and are pressure tested. They also have a section in which they describe how to load with buffer and shot. IN Editioon 4, they took out the section on buffered loads, but they still list buffered loads. You will notice that powder charges are subtantially reduced when using buffer.

I haven't started experimenting with buffer,...yet. But I am looking towards trying it with some of my heavier loads. I just trying to kill sqirrels and fox at 40-50 yds.

Incidentally, be aware that sometimes the best patterning loads are not using large amounts of shot. I am getting my best patterns using 1 1/8 oz of #4 shot compared to 1 3/8 or 1 1/2 oz loads. Go figure!!

This reloading stuff will drive you nuts.... it's wonderful!!!

Thanks for the reply...at this point I don't even know what buffer is really. Just heard you use it with heavier shot stuff to make it pattern right.

quote:

Originally posted by Marcstar:
Thanks for the reply...at this point I don't even know what buffer is really. Just heard you use it with heavier shot stuff to make it pattern right.

I know of some oldtimers who used corn meal for a buffer. You poor it in layers as you put the shot in the shell... the idea is to have all the gaps between the round shot filled with the buffer. They claim it really keeps the shot column tight by protecting the shot from deformation and also reducing the effects of air as the shot column begins its sprint toward the target.

Ballistic Products makes a buffer made of fine plastic shavings which is lighter and more forgiving than corn meal, but I have corn meal in the house... and I don't have BP's Buffer, so you can guess which one I will use.

I've been reading the Ballistic Product website's articles from the Reloading Curmudgeon. Here's what he had to say about my question:

Marc,
We have not tested mixing shot types so we cannot
advise to the correct ratios of one type to another.
Since each shot type (and resistence of the shot)
effects the ballistics of the load the ratio of shot
would have to be exact to successfully make a safe
load.
You can, however, make a duplex load of different shot
sizes of the same shot material. The main advantage
to this is increased pattern density as the smaller
shot can fill in the spaces of the pattern left by the
larger shot. Again, when loading this way, the weight
of the shot (payload) need to be kept true to the
published recipe.

I would also recommend our Status of Steel,
Handloading Hevi-Shot and Handloading Bismuth Shot
manuals for further information on loading each shot
type.

Marcstar,

I agree with their response, to a point. Most, if not all the factory duplex loads employ buffer in the shot column. My concern with loading "duplex loads" surrounds the issue of mixing the shot properly at the workbench. Considering the variables, I would prefer to stay with one size of shot and adjust shot amounts, powder amounts and wad columns to shoot best through the preferred choke.

I was visiting with Mark Bansner the other day, and I mentioned the load developement I was conducting for my Winchester Shotgun. He found a custom choke that he sold me for a minimal price, and I will be testing it as soon as the weather breaks. He is an awesome man, and I am glad to have him as a neighbor.

My best patterns with the extra full Winchoke is around 65% of the #4 shot in an 18"x 18" paper at 35 yards. That is not too bad considering the average is 75% in a 30" circle at 40 yards. But I sometimes find gaps big enough for a squirrel to squeeze through at 35 yards, and that is just unacceptable!!

The patterning process has been revealing some very interesting results and I am running statistical analysis on the different loads to identify correlations between various wads, powder loads, and shot amounts. As I stated previously, less shot has been working better.

More will be revealed!!

Check out Nitro Ammo. They load what they call an economy load. It is #4 #5 nickel plated lead along with #7 Hevi shot. They are expensive almost $5 a round for some of them. But the people that use them say they hit Turkeys like Thor's Hammer out to 50+ yards.

over the years I have loades duplex loads of diffrent reasons one is thay are great in heavy folage, As far as buffer the buffer help in most cases to keep the shot seperated which in turn reduces mis formed shot .which in theory should help patterns.
If you load the hevy shot in the bottom of the wad column it will blow through the light shot and out of the pattern. I put the heavy shot on top. I have shot turkeys through brush and high grass using these loads.
They work for me.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Marcstar:
I understand what you are saying about the heavier shot being faster but as far as hitting live game would that fraction of a second even matter?

A duck at 30 mph will fly approximately four feet in one-tenth of a second. I would think fractions of seconds matter, especially in pass shooting.

When Remington loaded 2 different sizes of shot, they put the larger shot size in the shell last, so it did not disrupt the pattern.

quote:

For waterfowl loads could you mix say steel and bismuth or steel and hevi shot in a load?

Only if the shot being mixed was of the same density. If the shot varies in density then you will not have the prescribed recipe as it will be too heavy or too light for the powder and the wad will only allow a little variance in volume of shot.

Besides, I see no real advantage here. Steel shot is actually not a bad thing to do to a duck or a goose at all.

Pattern kills...nothing else. Whatever gives you the most pellets in your payload (subject to that pellet retaining the required ft.lbs energy at your "killing range" for the size of quarry you are shooting) is the way to go. And remember pattern fails before penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by Marcstar:
Keep in mind I've never reloaded before and just want to get into it. So this may be a dumb question.

For waterfowl loads could you mix say steel and bismuth or steel and hevi shot in a load? So pretty much you are shooting half steel half heavier non tox loads in each shot.

Do some reloading with published loads for a few thousand shells and then decide if experimentation is necessary for your hunting needs.

Most of what you're asking has been tried at one time or another and is mostly still not in use. That should tell you something. Why reinvent the wheel?

I would worry about the different densities of shot (Lead, Bismuth, Tungsten, Steel) stratifying in the shot bottle as vibrations settle the contents of the bottle. This could lead you to have more lead in some shells and more steel at other points as you use up more of the contents of the bottle. As I understand, factory loaders for duplex loads have agitators in the reservoir to keep the mixture stirred up.

Buffering materials are usually chosen to be small enough that they will flow into the small spaces between the shot pellets. Even so I have run into a number of reports from folks trying to make buffered load that have ended up with layers of buffering materials floating on top of the shot in their shot bottles.

There is an easy way to solve the first concern, you have to load each shell individually and can hand mix the shot (if you want it mixed, or weigh/throw each shot size separately as you put it into the seated wad), not a real problem with a single stage, which is adequate for loading the numbers of shells that you would use duplex type loads for.

As far as the buffer goes, again, the loader puts it into the shot column AFTER you've loaded the shot. A bit of experimentation will tell you how much and then you put it on top of the shot and touch the shell with a vibration source, such as an electric tooth brush or one may have other vibrators around...... .....that will settle the buffer around the shot charge.

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:


I know of some oldtimers who used corn meal for a buffer. You poor it in layers as you put the shot in the shell... the idea is to have all the gaps between the round shot filled with the buffer. They claim it really keeps the shot column tight by protecting the shot from deformation and also reducing the effects of air as the shot column begins its sprint toward the target.

Ballistic Products makes a buffer made of fine plastic shavings which is lighter and more forgiving than corn meal, but I have corn meal in the house... and I don't have BP's Buffer, so you can guess which one I will use.

You've been duped. Those old timers were just using the meal to bait the area without being seen.