This one is more general motoring than classic car related but can some of you guys tell me if LPG/autogas is readily available in your local areas and if so, what sort of percentage saving it offers against gasoline/diesel please?

Its readily available in the metro Houston area. U-Haul company stores often carry it. I don't think the price-per-mile benefit is very high. Around here its more of a feel-good eco mind f**k.

Some countries like India and Brazil have subsidies for LPG because its so prevalent for cooking in addition to autos. Outside of those subsidies I don't think its all that economical. Especially if your reliability decreases after all the mods.

You don't lose reliability with them. In fact, the engines run smoother and better on LPG than they do on petrol/gasoline or diesel.... so much so, that the service intervals nearly double if they're running on LPG.

The UK, Europe and Australia at least also have subsidies on it and the tax is about 40% less for LPG than it is for petrol/diesel and as oil prices rise, that saving obviously increases.

It seems to be a typical stuff up here in Africa. Gas is 25% less than other fuels but can't be sold from filling stations, the gas depots have the gas but not the adaptors to fill the cars or the metering equipment to measure how much they're selling, the importers are nervous of buying lots of kits that they can't sell and the drivers are nervous about buying kits they might not be able to get gas for!

What it needs here is for just a few people to be willing to give it a go but at the moment, everyone is like a herd of migrating wildebeest all waiting for someone else to jump into the river first!

This might be of interest but don't forget it works on UK gallons rather than US gallons

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
This might be of interest but don't forget it works on UK gallons rather than US gallons

I just read where several European countries have the lower fuel tax cost for LPG but a much higer road use tax for LPG autos, negating the benefit. Don't know which countries those are but it sure is a back door screwing.

I don't know that either but FWIW, in the UK, you get a deduction on your road tax and on the city charges if you have a LPG conversion fitted.

I had a van that would run on gasoline or on LP. It had substanially more power with gasoline. Th LP mileage was very poor. I think my LP tank was only 12 gallons and there weren't nearly enough places that handled LP to be able to make long trips. All in all a nuisance and I quit renewing the required LP tax tag. This van was previously owned by the state and they had added the conversion.

A quarter century or so ago I was working as an import/classic mechanic and someone brought in a Morgan Plus8 that was converted to run on LP. Back then, if they were converted to LP they could be imported.

The main benefit I see is that you could buy LP and not get nailed for road taxes on the fuel.

As mentoned, engine performance takes a little hit but the oil lasts forever.

I gather from my research that the modern kits give a similar performance to ordinary petrol/gasoline on most cars and also that service intervals almost double and with the way the middle east is going up in flames and oil prices rising, I reckon they're going to become increasingly popular in many parts of the world..... although possibly not in the US because your gas prices are reasonably cheap (compared to other countries) anyway.

Out here in South Africa, a conversion would pay for itself (on a basic engine) within about 17000 kms but the problem seems to be supply. There's plenty of places that sell LPG but not many have the connecting or metering equipment needed at the moment.

FWIW, I had a couple of Range Rovers converted when I lived in the UK and they worked a treat.

All that said, some cars don't take to them as well as others. Some of the Fords seem to develop valve burnout on LPG.

Been using LP for donkeys years in work trucks,loses about 5-10 % power but does burn clean. Also doesnt start well esp in cold weather.

Run a 75-100 gal bulk tank in bed of pick-up and you are good to go-a long way

Fill at dealers to your bulk tak , metered just like a household tank. Western states like texas and NM sell you a annual sticker to make it legal for Highway use(taxes)

SSR

If your engine is built to take full advantage of the LPG's extreamly high octane then you loose no power.
Very high compression is the key. That or forced induction.

Thanks chaps.

I've got my research done and we'll see where we go from here!

Don't know much about modern LPG usage but have never seen a pump around So Az for it. Although the Tucson city busses run on Natural gas. I went to California in 1960 to build a plant for Armstrong Rubber Co. At that time I would say the majority of the large farmers in the valley powered their PU trucks on LPG.The first thing we did at Armstrong was to convert all the new Hyster lift trucks for use in the large warehouse from gasoline fuel to LPG. If memory serves the engines were 4 cylinder in lines, maybe Continentals. Conversion was quite simple and performance was exemplary with very low emissions for use inside the warehouse. Again I seem to remember Kings County Sheriffs dept converted a couple of patrol cars to LPGand installed the tanks in the trunk compartment with insufficient venting. After a couple of accidents supposedly caused by keying the radio and blowing off the trunk they abandoned the idea. I can well remember the first of the Hyster engines we rebuilt was remarkable for it's cleansiness. I can also remember well a leak at the main tank (which was quite large as we had probably 15/20 lift trucks) that spread a mist of gas that looked like low fog. I can also remember having to remove my shoes and take the bronze sparkproof tools and repair the leak. Cannot remember ANY problems with the use of LPG to power vehicles in either performance or maintenance.

Thirty years ago John Burrell (then a Senior VP of Canada's largest natural gas pipeline company) & I designed a system we hoped would make Nat Gas available as vehicle fuel to many, many North Americans.

Basically, it consisted of this:

1. A small compressor which would install on the downstream side of a home's natural gas meter. (Thus ALL natural gas used for vehicles would be automatically part of the homeowner's monthly natural gas bill.)

2. A hose from the compressor which could be used to fill the vehicle(s), and which had a special nozzle which would activate a filler valve in the vehicle.

3. A special filler valve, which was a bayonet type valve. Simply place the nozzle from the compressor into the valve inlet until it snapped into place. Putting the nozzle into place both opened the valve AND started the compressor.

4. When the vehicle's NatGas fuel tank was filled to the proper pressure level, the compressor would shut off automatically, so no attempt to overpressurize or overfill the tank was possible.

5. The final piece of the set-up was a standard NatGas conversion kit for the vehicle's engine.

The whole thing was designed so that all a vehicle owner had to do was plug the hose from the compressor into his vehicle and it would be filled completely, automatically.

Everyone who had natural gas service to their home thereby could have their own filling station at home.

We did not try to patent the system. We tried to give it away to anyone who wanted to take advantage of the VAST world supplies of natural gas, much of which is now either being either burned off or re-injected into the ground as part of the process of extracting crude oil from the ground.

None of the big oil and gas companies we talked with would do anything more than yawn. They were already making plenty of money and appeared more interested in going to lunch at the Petroleum Club than doing anything more than they already lazed away at.

Seems to me a whole new world could dawn in NA if the system was made available to our citizens. We would reduce the waste of natural gas, greatly extend engine life through the use of cleaner fuel, greatly reduce smog the same way, and create an industry or three of making, selling, and installing the compressor/filler systems.

It could also greatly reduce our reliance on offshore (foreign) oil sources.

If any of you can convince any company in any country to start the ball rolling, perhaps we can all end up better off.

We have "prior" rights to the concept documented, but would not have any problem with anyone using the concept free of charge, so long as they did not try to patent it and further rip off the public.

If they did try to patent the concept, we would, of course, legally oppose that.

Alberta Canuck


You might want to work up that Idea again. IMHO Nat gas is a coming thing for fuel. Whats the story currently on the onboard fuel tank and conversion kits these days?

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Alberta Canuck


You might want to work up that Idea again. IMHO Nat gas is a coming thing for fuel. Whats the story currently on the onboard fuel tank and conversion kits these days?

SSR

Lots of public corporations (most often public utility or public transportation companies) already use thNat Gas, and one can find a zillion conversion kits to allow standard gasoline cars and trucks to run on both, listed online.

The thing is, apparently no one except we two has seriously investigated a system to refill the vehicle tanks from the vehicle owner's home gas line on the downstream side of the meter. Without the home refuel option, there would be a vast investment for filling stations required. Which generally puts the kibosh on wide-spread sales.

With home fueling, it takes a few minutes with the home compressor outflow line plugged into your NG fuel tank and you're ready to roam. And if you go to where no NG is available when you need to refill, you flip the switch on your dash and go back to using gasoline.

At my age, I am simply not going to start back into it. If no-one else wants to pick up the ball (and perhaps become very, very rich by doing it), then Oh Well...

BTW, as far as the patent for the concept goes, we've changed our mind on that. We would allow that so long as we were listed as co-patentees. We would slill not want any of the proceeds, we'd just have our nose in there to make sure the purchasers of the home fueling devices weren't ripped off.

Our purpose was, and still is, to do some good for our fellow citizens in North America.