Thanks for the help on the traditional vs. modern thread that I started. I believe that I've decided to go traditional. Which leads to another question about this style in particular...
Could someone compare for me the effective range of patched round balls vs. conicals? I will probably eventually own barrels for both, but will be going with just one for now.
The range of both ball and bullet is about a 100 yards. I have taken [ with a ball], 1 whitetail at 120 yards and 1 at 110, all the rest have been well under the 100 yards. Conditions must be perfect for shooting past 100 yards, because both ball and bullet will drift bad in a wind, and the trajectory does not help either.
In addition to effective range differences between conicals and round balls, could someone also comment on any differences between .50 and .54 cal. This is the other decision I have to make.
quote:Originally posted by bobvthunter: In addition to effective range differences between conicals and round balls, could someone also comment on any differences between .50 and .54 cal. This is the other decision I have to make.
TIA, Bob
roundballs cost less, and in a .50 or .54 hit plenty hard. I would not buy a conical gun unless I would use it exclusively for elk and moose - I used .54 roundballs even for moose, but I have only gone once and cannot report any results. If I went a lot, I would want a conical gun probably. I like the extra punch of the .54. .54 roundballs are about 20% heavier than .50 cal roundballs. But either will work. The .54 will hit you back a bit harder of course.
roundballs also move fast - really fast (1931 fps in my .54 flinter, though 1750 fos is closer to normal), compared to conicals. And out to 100 yds or so will drop a bit less. Beyond that, they drop very quickly and at some point the conicals will have a flatter trajectory, but to 100, roundballs are generally flatter shooting.
Brent
Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002
100 yards is a pretty good limit with a round ball or conical.
Shooting roundballs I like the .54 over the .50. The .54 provides more mass for some of the larger game like moose, elk, bear, and even big pigs. Either is more than enough for deer. I have used a .45 roundball on deer with excellent results.
For conicals I think you will get better performance out of the .50 rather than the .54. And the extra barrel weight would help soak up the recoil from those heavy connicals too.
Posts: 513 | Location: MO | Registered: 14 March 2003
IF you are real good at judging distances, and know your trajectory, a large round ball (.54 or larger) can be effective to 150 yards. If you're not good at judging range, then you should limit your shots to 100 yards or less!! The Mountain Men often took shots at 200 yards or so with their Hawkens!! A conical (or sabot) in the right rifle can be effective at 200 yards.
I can keep my 54 cal Hawken on paper(pie plate) at 200 yards shooting 395 grain Hornady conicals. This however is at the range with a known distance and a bench. Way to far for hunting but I was very happy with the accuracy. It took me many range days to get it right but now I have. I have not tried balls however I have some friends that have with good results. The most important thing I did was get a moveable sight so I could sight it in right. I will tell you there is one heck of a drop between 100 to 200 yards. Expecially because I dont shoot a max load. I found a little lighter gives me better accuracy.
I agree about the round ball range being around 100 yds. +/-. I disagree about conical limitations. The principal limiting factor with conicals is bullet design and quality of rifle and shooter. The Whitworth Rifles were effective at long range and one CSA General fell to a 1 mile shot from a conical. Many of todays hunting conicals give up weight and form for no good reason other than reduced recoil or minor utility. Let's see: 500 gr lead and 70 grains of black; muzzle loader or 45-70? 500/90; 50-90 or muzzle loader? That one is close to what I loaded in a TC Renegade.
Digital Dan--It would be my suspicion that at a range of one mile w/bp and conical, generals are far more likely to to drop than elk!! While I have a lot of respect fo BP conicals, there are limits...In the old days I suspect there were as many people incapable of estimating distance as now, and as many who "stretched"the distance of thier shots as now. I have a friend who still swears he does not have to hold over at 1600 yds with his 7 mag--It shoots flat!!! He can't estimate range very well, and has come in near last in every shoot we have gone to...oh well. regards, Chuck
You might think about a compromise twist. The traditional round ball twist is 1 turn in 60 inches. Unless you are going to shoot matches, you can get by with a 1 turn in 48 inch twist. This will stabilize a round ball if you drop your charge weight some and slow it down. It will also shoot most lead conicals. I don't know about sabots.
The Thompson Center Hawkin used to be made with this twist, I don't know if it still is, but a call to the factory will answer the question.
Chuck, wasn't suggesting that BP and conicals were easy at long range, just that they are not necessarily short range combinations. The Whitworth was a long range rifle by intent and could pretty much screw up your day at 600 yds. Whether you can connect or not is a personal problem , but 500 grains of lead from a 45-70 is man lethal beyond 3000 yds. Don't know about elk
Actually, it was a Federal genral--Sedgwick who dropped at 1,200 yards.
"Why, my man," he chuckled, "I am ashamed of you, dodging that way. They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance." Then his chief of staff, Martin T. McMahon, who was speaking to him, heard another shrill whistling sniper bullet and then noticed blood pouring from a hole in the general?s cheek. That was the end of General Sedgwick.
That was pretty effective.
Posts: 308 | Location: In transit | Registered: 10 April 2002
quote:Originally posted by Richard Saloom: Actually, it was a Federal genral--Sedgwick who dropped at 1,200 yards.
More and more, I hear that this is actually all fictious. How sure are you that this actually heppened at all? I have read about it many times and places, but have now been told the general never existed, the shot was never made. The entire thing is nothing more than a good story.
Brent
Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002
Round ball accuracy; For overall hunting, I would go with the .54. My TC .54 hawken, has the original 1 in 48 twist barrel. I worked up a round ball load for bear hunting with 100 grains FF. I am getting very little unburned powder and with iron sights off a rest, a 4 inch group at 85 yards. This load will punch through a dry 3 inch phone book at that distance. Groups would be smaller except I have a heck of a time with these new trifocals..
Thanks Richard, I had my Generals crossed up. There is another story about a 1 mile shot on a General Lainhart that I had just read about in BPCNews and apparently, that's the fake.
Those are some interesting myths, I had almost forgotten about the virginal birth by minie ball.
I am hoping to get an unusual Whitworth target rifle in .431 (no typo) caliber--I doubt if I'll be able to shoot over 100 yards with it. It will be interesting.
Posts: 308 | Location: In transit | Registered: 10 April 2002
quote:Originally posted by Richard Saloom: I am hoping to get an unusual Whitworth target rifle in .431 (no typo) caliber--I doubt if I'll be able to shoot over 100 yards with it. It will be interesting.
any Whitworth is interesting. A 431 is really interesting. Hexagonal bore? And a muzzleloader?
David Minshall may know about these. He also knows about several fake .451s out there. You might check out the lrml group at yahoogroups.com if you don't already know about it. David is the list owner.
Brent
Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002
quote:Originally posted by derf: I have a 50 Hawken clone in pc but would prefer a 54. Also I am surprised that no one mentioned sabots. I can use 429s in my 50. derf
Been there done that. But saboted slugs in a large diameter muzzleloader will not get you all that much further than an everyday conical. They lack the ballistic efficiency of a heavier, for caliber slug and do not arrive at the target with much oomph. You can't load a heavier sabotted bullet because you don't have a fast enough twist to stabilize it sufficiently.
Sabots are okay, but not much more than that. If you want long range shooting, you need a bullet that is on the order of 3 times longer than its diameter and a sufficiently fast twist to handle it properly. If .429s are your choice, you will need a twist on the order of 1x18" or so and a bullet weight around 475-500 grs.
Finally, sabots are unlikely to be accurate enough. They are thick and "soft" and unlikely to release the bullet gently enough to provide the best accuracy. Hence, people that shoot black powder a long ways, use paper patched bullets or grease groove bullets. They are far far more accurate at long range.
There is quite a bit of technology developed in the 1860s-1890s for shooting bp out far past the quarter mile mark. Reading Ned Robert's book on Caplock Muzzleloading Rifles is a good place to pick up on it, for anyone interested. And of course, there are the single shot breechloading cartridge rifles like the Sharps which takes up the same challenge.
Of course, for hunting, things get pretty iffy out there with range estimation. Being off by 10 yds on a 400 yds target will have tragic results. And then, even if you estimate the range precisely, at some point, you are just gambling that the wind won't change and the animal won't move, AFTER you have pulled the trigger. Flight time gets so long that I, personally, cannot consider it ethical for anyone to shoot at game beyond 400 yds. And personally, shooting beyond 300, do to estimation issues, is as far as I MIGHT go if I felt everything was drop dead perfect. I thought that all was perfect for a nice antelope at what I estimated to be 240 yds, and you can read all about how that turned out on one of my webpages if you want. How to avoid error when estimating hunting ranges - and how to screw up anyway.
Ah well, that's enough rambling for today. Brent
Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
, but 500 grains of lead from a 45-70 is man lethal beyond 3000 yds. Don't know about elk ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon}
