I was thinking of using a mix of around 20gns of FFg black powder with 10gns of nitro powder such as H4831 in my muzzle loader, a 58cal Zoli( hopefully for cleaner burning and also because I have a lot of the stuff which is not working in my other rifles). This will be for practice and playing around, not competition. Anyone out there have any thoughts on this, whether it is dangerous or anything. Thanks in advance.

Small charges of slow powder have been known to explode violently in cartridges. I would switch to Hornady Triple Seven if you want cleaner burning propellent.

I'm aware of only two muzzleloaders rated for use with smokeless powders, the Savage ML-10 and ML-10 II.

You're welcome to do as you please but I would pull the trigger with a piece of string as I hid behind something very solid.

If you decide to do this I would heavily recommend the use of saboted bullet loads. If you have a dangerous pressure situation, from a load perspective, the sabot would work as a pressure relief valve letting the explosive gas stream penetrate the side of the sabot between the bullet and barrel and allow the gas to escape through the muzzle.

I've had exceptional luck with H4831 in a variety of rifles ranging from 22/6mm, 243/06, 308 Norma, and 404 Jeffery, so I would recommend that you not waste that powder as you'll more then likely end up with something that will digest it quite well.

It's often nice to speak from experience but in terms of mixing powder, especially black powder and smokeless powder, I have no experience so I can only relay that a good rule of thumb is to NOT mix powder.

Good luck,

Reed

If you do this, first make shure you'r affairs are in order, and say goodby to all you love. As Snyper said, try 777.

Well I just gave it a go to see how it went.(using shooting glasses) I started off very light and went up to 20gns FFg and 20gnss VVn540, for a total of 40gns. It gave lower velocity than 40 gns of black powder(about equal to 30-35gn charge) I suppose the nitro powder I was using was slower burning than the black powder. There was nearly no smoke and I think it gave less fouling, but I didnt fire enough shots to judge very well. I,m still not going to recommend others try it, but I wanted to experiment.

Did the rifle come with an owners manual? If,so did you read it? All said and done, you're on you're own...

cr500 WHY??????? Black powder, Pyrodex, and 777 are for shooting in muzzleloaders, NOT MODERN POWDER.
The presure curve is not the same for these powders, and it is not safe to use modern powder in muzzleloaders. Smokeless powder needs back pressure to work properly, and makes a slower, but much higher rise in pressure than black. You say that you do not recommend it to others, but by putting it on the web you run the risk of somebody that knows nothing about muzzleloading trying it. Next time you try something that is not safe, please do not tell us about it. We can pick it up in the obituaries. Or, the Darwin Awards.

I didnt go into it totaly blind. I have read up a bit on nitro loads for black powder guns(the book shooting the British double rifle covers it fairly well, doing presure tests, as well as others) and they both said H4831 type powder was usualy the best. In Australia we dont get 777 or pyrodex so I suppose this is why books written outside U.S have experiments like these. Maybe because we cant travel on planes with black powder to get to hunting grounds, the authors have done presure tests with nitro powders. If I hadnt read up on it first, I wouldnt have tried it.

Many years ago, after reading Ned Roberts' book, The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle, and in it, the part about how the old-time slug-gun shooters would use a duplex load consisting of 5 to 10 grains of "bulk shotgun" smokeless powder as a priming charge then a slightly reduced charge of black on top, in order to promote cleaner burning. I tried this idea using 2 grains of Unique and 90 grains of FFg in a .50 Round Ball rifle. This rifle had a barrel made from modern chrome-moly barrel steel. I experienced no problems with excessive pressures, but after about 10 rounds, I discovered that there was no difference in the way the rifle performed. The BP was not burning any cleaner despite the Unique, and fouling was just the same. So, I dropped the idea completely. I have fired at least 1500 black powder rounds in that rifle since then, some loads consisting of 370-grain Maxi-balls with a charge of up to 130 grains of Curtis & Harvey Musket powder, and can assure you that this barrel is as sound as the day it was made (by Bill Large)!! BUT!!!! The use of ANY AMOUNT OF ANY KIND OF SMOKELESS POWDER IN A MUZZLELOADER NOT DESIGNED FOR SMOKELESS POWDER is very dangerous, and in addition, does nothing for you in a duplex load. They are NOT cleaner. The danger in using smokeless, even in a strong barrel, comes not so much from any lack of barrel strength as it does from the weakness of the caplock breeching system. A drum and nipple, OUTSIDE HAMMER system will just not contain much more pressure than what is generated by black powder. It will blow the drum and/or nipple out, and may blow the hammer off, as a minium. Much more serious damage could also be produced by using smokeless.

[ 02-27-2003, 17:50: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

cr500, You've made an assumption about duplex loads in general and British double rifles in particular. To wit, duplex (and even triplex) loads were used in rifles designed for metallic cartridges, not muzzleloaders. To confuse the two is just courting disaster. Please tread carefully!

Very new to BP, but my handloading guru who taught me smokeless powder had a saying. In shooting powders, more is often less. Have a Mod. 99 Savage in .22 Hi Power. Never shot worth a crap, until I took the time to read old loading manuals. Was about to re-chamber the blasted thing at one point. Shot mainly European shells through it, with horrible results. These were loaded hot, for use in bolt action rifles. Learned to reduce the load, and now it is undoubtably the most accurate and gentle shooting lever action I own.

Scott

Natural selection is still at work, it seems.

Sell this rifle. Sell any other fire arms you may now have in your possession. Your intelligence level is too low to handle these. Collect stamps.

NEVER fire nitro powder in a ML.