I have definitely thought of the Swiss powder alternative!
It seems that the old tried and true straight BP is what works. I would love to find a combo that limited fouling - if a duplex load isn't noticeably better....then what the heck - ain't nothin' wrong with straight BP. I do think I will give the duplexing a try - can't hurt to experiment.

On a side note:
I just got done reading an article about using a "wad column" with the straight BP to reduce fouling. The claim was up to 20rnds could be fired before any cleaning was necessary - accuracy didn't suffer either. The column was felt wad, grease then a leather cookie. The felt wad (or heavy paper card) was against the bullet - the grease cookie was SPG lube, the leather was the hard, slick finished type - similiar to saddle leather, only thinner.

The theory was the lube was squeezed by combustion and gradually metered out to lube the barrel and the trip to the muzzle. Actual recovery (hit a chronograph) showed that the cookie of grease remained intact and unchanged. Then the leather would have to be the "wiper" cleaning the bbl as the round was fired? They author wasn't sure - and was going to test some more. If anyone is interested in the link I will try and scare it up.
Has anyone tried this column trick before?
Eric

The wad column you describe sounds a lot like what the British Army put behind the bullet, on top of the powder charge, in their .577 Snider ammunition, the frst centerfire British Army service cartridge. I suppose such a column would take most of the previous fouling out every time you reloaded and fired the next round, so I guess it would let you fire quite a few rounds before fouling builds up to the point it messes up your accuracy too much, or makes loading impossible.

I don't know how you feel about substitute powders, but I find that Pyrodex makes it possible for me to shoot all afternoon without having to clean betweeen shot strings.

eldeguello,
I do use substitute BP for my son's rifle - .50 cal Bobcat Front Stuffer. I have also run straight BP in the same. I find I do very much prefer straight BP for the reliable ignition. I also use straight BP for my flintlocks and other front stuffers.

In a cartridge scenario is the substitute BP as reliable as BP? Which type do you use - Pyrodex, Clean Shot, Triple 7...? Is there and advantage to their use - other than fouling reduction? I have heard that for percussion rifles (modern style inline front stuffers) the clean shot and triple 7 are supposed to be the ticket; they supposedly provide minimal fouling for follow up sabot ammo loads. I don't have a problem with using modern technology in the BP cartridge type loads. I am not looking to compete with this little NEF - I just want a light, easily carried, accurate single shot utilizing the "old way" of reloading. I guess I am leary of the clean shot type claims where no lube of any kind is needed. This concerns me in the regard of a bare bullet not having any lube. If you have some advice and guidance to share I would be all ears. This is my "first" rifle to run strickly BP cartridges as the main ammo of choice. I am willing to play around and experiment with different combos and methods to get the most out of this rifle. Hence- my questions on duplex loads....
Looking forward to your reply
Eric

I bought a couple of "Mag-Spark" nipples from October Country for my sidelocks, which permit the use of No. 209 shotgun primers with a sidelock - these put a primer flash all the way out of the muzzle, and absolutely prevent ignition problems with substitute powders. Actually, I have had no ignition problems with Pyrodex after I started using Uncle Mike's Hotshot nipples with CCI No. 11 MAGNUM caps.



I find that in my guns T7 leaves a bad fouling ring in the breech area, making reloading without wiping betweeen shots more difficult than with Pyrodex or Clean Shot. Pyrodex is also a little more resistant to humidity than T7 or Clean Shot. The best substitute in this regard is GOEX ClearShot, which is out of production but some may still be around. I have three pounds of it left. There's also one out now called BLACK MAG. III, but I have not had a chance to try it yet.



NONE of these ignition problems seem to show up in the .45/70 despite which powder you use. I've used T7 and Pyrodex in cartridges with complete satisfaction. Accuracy was good, shooting the Lyman 457122HP a 349-grain bullet cast of pure lead, shot as-cast, with nothing for lubrication except a .45 cal. Wonderwad under the bullet. MV of this load using 65 grains of T7 FFg or 65 grains of Swiss FFg was +- 1350 FPS.

Complex wad columns have been around since the beginning of time. Leather would probably work if you can afford it. But fiber wads sold by many different folks, www.buffaloarms.com being one of the best, will work better, cost less.

Felt wads in cartridge cases are rarely used. They are expensive and generally do not perform as well as simply a layer or ribbon of lube such as SPG or Black Magic Bullet Lube. Any of these are only needed in cartridges using paper patched bullets. If you shoot grease grooved bullets a simple cardwad under the bullet is more than sufficient. No grease required.

The need for smokeless/bp duplexing has always escaped me. If you are afraid of the fouling - why not use pure smokeless loads? Easier by far, safer by at least a little, and performance is fine.

Brent

Hey guys!
Back at it again....I did some more reading on the complex wad column - I posted the info inaccurately. I guess the column is backwards. There is an over the powder wad, grease cake then the leather under the bullet. Anywho....pretty complicated, I like the over the powder wad and nothing more routine.

As far as duplexing, I am finding more info that negates the benefits of duplexing. This concerns me, naw, it is beginning to make my little voice's say "not for me".
I have learned to listen and heed these warnings over the years. Not to mention the very nature of duplexing goes against the safety rules of reloading. I appreciate everyones responses and experiences. Without the help I would still be wondering and asking questions. Much thanks for the help!

Now, I need to find a good BP load and bullet combo that my rifle digests well. If I am not happy with the accuracy there is always options - smokeless which would be at the top of the list! Just last evening I was checking my BBL internal measurements with a pair of calipers - mainly just screwing around. On a whim I snagged a bare bullet that I had cast awhile back for my 45 Colt. This bullet is the 300grn FP-GC from Lee. I checked the measurements as cast and found it to be .458-.460" - this was cast with wheel weight / tin mix (roughly 5% tin). Interested by my findings, I tried placing the bullet in the end of the bbl of the 45/70 and found it stopped before the driving band(forward crimp groove). I do believe I now have a subject bullet to test thru the rifle!

Anyway....
Thanks all for the help!
Eric

For anyone following the link,

I just yesterday ran into - literally - a gentlman that competes in BPCRS while at work. I asked him about his rifle ammo combo and his knowledge of duplex loads. He confirmed he hunts with duplex loads and shoots a duplex load on a regular basis. Intrigued I asked for the particulars:
10% IMR4227
90% Goex FFg
420grn FP (cast from WW)
Mag primer
his own secret lub (SPG is used too with excellent results)
.060" vege wad
No crimp
.060" powder compression

He explained to me that the duplex load above allows him to shoot numerous rounds before accuracy is affected. He had nothing but positive comments with using the duplex loads. He also recommended varying the smokeless charge and powder compression to dial the load in tighter for your particular firearm. Crimp if needed for your particular firearm or load situation.

Just thought I would pass this along for those who might be interested,as I was, in what duplex loads are and how to load them. I myself just might try this particular load and compare it against a straight BP load, Maybe....We'll see.
Anyway - here it is for those who are interested.
Eric
decisions.....Gotta LoveEm'!!!

Thanks for the info.

Eric, did you ask him why he doesn't just use straight smokeless loads? Why bother with bp at all?

Brent

Brent,
The gentleman I a was refering to competes in BPCRS, I don't believe smokeless powder is allowed. He also uses BP loads for hunting as I said above, why change loads when he has one that works? He took an elk with the load I listed above last year. The elk fell to one shot at over 200yds - I don't remember the exact yardage - but it was a long ways.
I have known this guy for several years professionally - just recently realized his involvement with BP shooting.
Now I have a local mentor to help me along in my learning curve.