Is there a formula or data table for converting grains by volume into grains by weight.

Go to a machine shop parts supplier and get a trig /tables hand book cost $2.00 Mine is a Carr/Lane 1 lb =7,000 Grains I don't understand you Volume question ?

jesilva - no is the only answer. every powder has a different density. Even powders of the same manufacture and granulation but different batches have different densities. Sometimes the differences can be huge - pushing 20% or more.

FWIW, I have a TC powder measure that I used for years to measure "100 gr" of Goex 2fg. One day, I weighed some out. It weighed 129 gr. Never believe a volume measure is measuring anything but volume and then, it may be doing it in unique units. A CVA measure set to "100 gr" actually produced damn near 100 gr loads of the same powder.

Brent

The way to do what you are asking about is to measure a charge of the desired black or substitute, then weigh it on a scale. You will get a "volume equivalent" in grains. From there on, make every charge equal the first one in grains. You will have very consistent charges for your muzzleloader. Put them into quick loaders and let the good times roll!

Get/make a powder dipper. Make it deliver a measured amount on the scale. Put the scale away and mesure that amount with your dipper. You now have a "By Volume" measurement.

I use T7 ffg and have found that weighed is 20% less than volume... 100gn Volume is 80gn weighed. Checked this out by throwing different volumes and the average came out to 20% difference. I shoot 120gn volume in my Knight... when I weigh it on my scale I weigh out 96gn. Works for me...

quote:

Originally posted by jesilva:
Is there a formula or data table for converting grains by volume into grains by weight.

NO, because different black powders and substitutes have different densities. So the amount space (volume) occupied by a specific weight of each powder (Fg, FFg, FFFg, FFFFg, black powders of the various brands, Pyrodex, T7, AAP, Pinnacle, ClearShot, etc.), is going to vary significantly! For example, some folks say that 100 grains (volume measure) of Pyrodex RS will only weigh 80 grains, and others claim it weighs 70 grains. The truth is, 100 grains by volume of Pyrodex RS will weigh between 70 and 80 grains, and this varies between lots!!

Grains by volume... Hmmm... What Black Powder is really measured by is grains of water volume. That is, 60 grains by volume of B.P. is the same volume as occupied by 60 grains of water at 68 degrees F.

You will never get a measure thus calibrated to measure a granulated substance that varies as much as B.P. with any correlation to a weighed amount. That is probably o.k. for BP because such a large percentage remains unburned and even fairly large changes in the amount of powder result in little or no change in ballistics.

Moral of the story: try not to waste your time weighing charges and calibrate your homemade measures with cold water.

Geo.
You don't shoot BP very much do you?

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Geo.
You don't shoot BP very much do you?

Brent

Geo. may not, but I do, and Geo.is right! Many people claim that they get much better accuracy with weighed, rather than measured, charges of BP/BP substitutes. This is magic!

I have never found this to be so, and even more revealing is the fact that weighed charges do NOT give more uniform muzzle velocities than do measured charges! If weighed charges were better, it would show up here as well as on the paper, since it is uniformity of MV that results in consistent bullet paths from the muzzle to the target.

What does make the difference is the consistency with which bullets are started into the muzzle then slid down the bore, and the uniformity of the pressure with which bullets are seated on the powder charge.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Many people claim that they get much better accuracy with weighed, rather than measured, charges of BP/BP substitutes.

To each his own. One 3-shot group does not a Hypothesis prove.

I've shot them every which way and often load by volume. But never when searching for the most accurate loads. Find a 1000 yds bpcr competitor that loads strictly by volume. There may be one out there (hint: if there is, his initials are DG), but very few folks will load by volume if they are serious competitors.

Brent

Brent,
There are perfectly good reasons to test loads using a measured amount of the actual mass of powder, and that is what weighing powder accomplishes.

However, emperors still buy new clothes these days, and that is what happens when you mix new and old technologies. The characteristics of BP are complex and not only determined by weight of the mass, but by what kind of charcoal was used, how it was mixed and granulated, etc. There is also the matter of the differences in bulk density from lot-to-lot and by the amount of compression an individual lot might prefer. Many of these are not optimizable simply by using either weight or volume as the arbiter.

Then there is the not so little matter of the percentage of unburned powder in a shot, complicated by a change in the amount of unburned powder that comes with a change in charge. Unfortunately, this falls into the category of an indeterminate error and may not even be exactly the same from shot to shot for the same load--at least the difference would be more than would be made up for by weighing charges.

Please, by all means weigh charges if it suits you, but I will only weight charges under certain circumstances, not as a general rule.

George, I know a fair bit about black powder. It's the only powder I use. I've swapped a million emails with Bill Knight, so I know all about the charcoal issue as well. But the bottom line is that best accuracy will be obtained with weighed charges. I'd be willing to wager if you want to come on by and test it.

Many people get by just fine with volume thrown charges, and I often do the same. But I don't do that for best accuracy.

Brent

Most of the people I know and know of that shoot bpcr and m/l benchrest use powder measures, Lyman's non-sparking version seems the most popular. The rest use dippers. In fact, I don't know a single person who weighs bp or substitute charges on a scale. But maybe that's just me and I live in my own little world (along with about a hundred others, including several national and world champs). Volumetric measurers all. No black powder or substitute that I have ever tried has much of any batch-to-batch consistant ratio of weight to volume. In my experience, best accuracy comes when the bullet is seated right on top of the charge with no airspace, and that is frankly impossible with weighed charges without varying critical seating depth.
While I will grant you that if you open a new can and weigh out a charge of a given volume, you have data useful for the rest of that can, but that doesn't help you for the next can that you buy a week later. For me, it has about as much practical use as a voodoo doll, though even the doll might have some value in trying to out-psyche one's opponents at a match. You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but other intelligent and practical people have an equal right to look at the same data and come to a different and logical conclusion. Knowing how to swim and swapping a million emails with Flipper will not make me an oceanographer.

Versifier,
So, who are the world champs that volume measure their powder? Either they are muzzleloaders or they are Dave Gullo - who doesn't live anywhere near you. In bpcr, just about everyone I know weighs. In benchrest Schuetzen, we normally volume measure because we load at the bench with a single case.

Best accuracy comes wherever it comes. Sometimes seated on top of an uncompressed charge sometimes compressed over half an inch. sometimes seating 3/8" ahead of the powder.

You can swap all the emails with Flipper that you want, but if you want to learn about charcoal, you better talk to Bill Knight. Everyone that espouses expertise on the issue of charcoal and bp, can trace their expertise back to exactly one man, and he's the guy.

Brent

quote:

Everyone that espouses expertise on the issue of charcoal and bp, can trace their expertise back to exactly one man, and he's the guy.

Oh, I am not so sure about that at all... I know a few BPCR guys down here in TX, and none of them hobnob with the famous(?) Mr. Knight... The majority of them learned it on their own.

Since I do all my BP shooting with handguns, I found the Lee dippers convenient to use. I check every new can of black weighing a few charges just to know what dipper to use but I never found a noticeable difference in point of impact between charges.My LePage shoots at the same point of aim with 30gr or 20 gr of FFGg and it is the same with my Ruger OldArmy

I shoot SWISS 1 1/2 FG in my 45-70, about a pound at every match. We weigh our bullets, we weigh our cases, and we weigh our powder. It's called consistency.

Before I knew any better, I thought I was being careful by weighing my maximum 150 grain charge for my muzzle loader. It sure did kick. After consulting the instructions, I discovered that the correct conversion factor was not 1.0 but 0.625. I should have weighed out 93.8 grains (by weight) to get the correct 150 grains by volume. Not this day.

Being the sort that I am, I had carefully calibrated my volume measure against my powder scale (the reverse of the correct procedure), and so found that I would get the "maximum 150 grain load" by dispensing 240 grains by volume (2 full measures and then 40 grains by volume).

With such a load, the gun kicked hard behind 370 grain Maxi-Ball bullets. The bullets themselves did not like this load any too well, and they could not find an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 50, then 25, then 15 yards. Ah, third shot; right down there in the corner. Shoot for opposite corner. No bullet. In the middle of this process, I discovered some slight relief from the recoil by folding my soft shotgun case in half and interposing it between my Pyrodex bomb and my tender self. Still, I was being hit hard enough that I could feel something inside of me slapping against the inside of my chest. I haven't played football in a long time, but I used to think this was the top ends of my lungs or the bottom end of my windpipe rattling around when I was hit. My 375 doesn't do this to me.

To conclude a long story, as I backed off the charge, those Maxi-Balls tightened up into about a 10 inch group at 50 yards, whereas patched balls and saboted pistol bullets can be shot into "almost touching" to 3" groups at the same distance. I've got a couple of friends who shoot more black powder than I do, and maybe they'd like the rest of my Maxi-Balls. My rifle has no use for them.

I would not hesitate to weigh my powder charges when hunting if it were not so inconvenient to bring a long extension cord for my powder scale into the field. I do bring a little telescoping brass adjustable powder measure with me.

H. C.

I believe in weighing but I also check each new can of powder (regardless of type) against the previous. Also, generally I will base my weighed charges on a volumetric charge which I can easily throw in the field should the need arise.

Nothing wrong with either method so long as you work with the correct information. My best groups have been fired with matched by weight loads.

Henry, that conversion factor is only good for the one can of Pyrodex. The next can might be a bit different. I would suggest you back that load down even further and see how those Maxi's shoot. Maybe 70 to 80 grains VOLUMETRIC. No point in beating yourself... and you aren't giving those bullets a chance. A lot of us carry small plastic vials of pre-weighed loads, no biggee.

The ratio that Flatland Hunter referenced with FFg Triple7 (only that powder) matches my own observations and it stays reasonably constant.

Hi there,

I am more into target shooting and I have made the following observations. My two target rifles are a Tryon rifle and a Bristlen Morges. In the past I used to weigh my charges but in the meantime I only use the volumetic measuring method. However, I weigh my bullets very accurately. I found the volumetric method to be better, giving me more accuracy at 50m (about 55 yard). Loading the rifle with the same volume of powder guarantees that the bullet will allways sit in the same position. For every new can of powder I use, I have to adjust elevation on my sights slightly but this is a small price to pay for excelent accuracy. Both the Tryon and the Bristlen are capable to deliver 15 rounds within a 1" diameter or less at 55 yards (benchrest with diopter sights) using my method of volumetric powder measurement. Haven't tried either rifle with a scope yet but my gut feeling is that the goup might be even a bit closer due to eliminating aiming inconsistencies.

Daniel

jesilva, contrary to belief, you can come up with a weight and be real close to the volume. Just for everyone's knowledge, I do reload and have reloaded with black powder for a long long time. I reload for my 45-70 Shiloh Sharps.

What I did to come up with my weight is, I filled a volume charge with black powder to 70 gr. by volume. I did this 20 times and weighed the charge's. I then took all those numbers and added them together and divided it by 20 and found the average. With Goex black powder, I use 74 gr. by weight to equal 70 gr. by volume.

Brent I agree with you. You said it correct. " But the bottom line is that best accuracy will be obtained with weighed charges"

in ten years of bp shooting I have never weighed a charge.by the way,it isnt a good idea to use a smokeless powder measure for bp.

quote:

Originally posted by jb:
in ten years of bp shooting I have never weighed a charge.by the way,it isnt a good idea to use a smokeless powder measure for bp.

You may not have weighed a charge but unless you have been shooting a single batch of powder all that time, it is unlikely that you have been shooting the same amount of powder for a given volume. BP varied in density from batch to batch even within a given brand and granulation.

Smokeless powder measures are just fine with bp. That myth has died some time ago. If you know many seriousl shooters of bp, this is a nonissue as can quickly be determined at any of the more knowledgeable forums such as

http://bpcr.net/forum/index.php
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/index.php?sid=3a8c88d58c0d6b0bfd0bea6a1406ab63

Brent

quote:

To each his own. One 3-shot group does not a Hypothesis prove.

I've shot them every which way and often load by volume. But never when searching for the most accurate loads. Find a 1000 yds bpcr competitor that loads strictly by volume. There may be one out there (hint: if there is, his initials are DG), but very few folks will load by volume if they are serious competitors.

Brent

quote:

To each his own. One 3-shot group does not a Hypothesis prove.

Find a 1000 yds bpcr competitor that loads strictly by volume. There may be one out there (hint: if there is, his initials are DG), but very few folks will load by volume if they are serious competitors.

Brent

I agree, to each his own. However, if you look closely, there are TWO tight 100-=-yard groups there shot with two different rifles on the same day, using measured powder charges. What's more, those two rifles will shoot that way on a calm day, every time.

I will admit that I have no idea how the BPCR benchrest boys are obtaining their powder charges. However, I have noticed that there are quite a few of the smokeless powder benchrest shooters who use powder measures to throw their charges....some of them even do this at the range without benefit of a powder scale.......

eldeguello,
I never said measured powder charges shoot poorly. I don't know what you mean by measured. I just volume measured a bunch of .45-70 cases because my weight scale is on loan elsewhere. All things being equal, I prefer to weigh my charges, but I don't do that always.

Schuetzen benchrest shooters use RCBS, Harrels, Redding, and Lyman 55 powder measures to throw bp at the bench. They don't weigh it. I think they would do better if they did, but portable scales are not very convenient and hard to use in moving air around a shooting bench.

Long range (1000 yd) muzzlelooading competitors generally bring preweighed charges to the match.

Each group does different things.

Brent

Trying to obtain any really useful information from this thread would be more than enough to provoke the parson into fits of vulgarity that would make a longshoreman blush.

7000 grains by weight is equal to one pound. A grain measure of Goex FFFg by volume is approximately equal to the same grain measure of Goex FFFg by weight. Goex FFg, FFFFg, substitutes, etc. will all have a different grain weight than Goex FFFg w/ the same volume and therefore will not match.

There are too many variables to see any marked improvement in accuracy between a properly measured charge of black powder by volume vs. measuring a charge of black powder by a scale.

GVA

quote:

Is there a formula or data table for converting grains by volume into grains by weight.

For a thread started nearly a year ago, the answer is hardly timely.

Richard Lee provides tables for both black and smokeless powders in every Lee Dipper set sold, and many reloading manuals also publish approximate "gravimetric densities," which is the formula you apparently seek.

I do know,and its in dixiegunworks book,that 10grains of blackpowder is equal,or visa versa to 8 grs of pyrodex. van

quote:

Originally posted by van:
I do know,and its in dixiegunworks book,that 10grains of blackpowder is equal,or visa versa to 8 grs of pyrodex. van

And sometimes, 7 grains of Pyrodex.............