Well,..after 1 primer type change and only 2 charge's,..I found a load for 1moa (.971"). I started at 46gr of imr4227 as per the factory rep, with the win 209 and the 240gr XTP (.001" undersized). The groups were OK. I went back with a hotter primer due to the slow burn rate of 4227 compared to other powders. I used some old Alcan Max Fire 209's. It did not like those!! Went back to the win209 and bumper the charge to 47gr. VOILA .971" (using the grey areas where the bullet din't perforate the paper!!!!)

These things are for real guys

Oh yeah,..I have fired it 19 times and the pill still slides down the bore just as easy as the first one did

Be careful with the Savage. I almost got one until a friend directed me to www.hpmuzzleloading.com where it gave a pretty good picture and story of one that disintigrated. Smokeless muzzleloading may be the wave of the future and I sure hope it is but just not for me right now.

Catmandu

You'll see this published in the next issue of "North Carolina Sportsmen"

Dear North Carolina Sportsmen,



Your story, entitled �Bridges Splits with Savage after Muzzleloader Explosion,� as printed commencing on page 26 of the November, 2004 issue of the North Carolina Sportsmen contains a number of grievous, verifiable errors. Toby Bridges did not �Split with Savage,� as the title of the article proclaims. Savage Arms fired Toby Bridges for not doing his job, according to the man that fired him, Savage CEO Ronald Coburn.



In your article Mr. Bridges speculates and perpetuates a myth about the Savage 10ML-II as having a poorly designed breechplug with a problematic snout that somehow fails to seal hot gas. In actuality, the threaded portion of the breechplug in the Savage 10ML-II does all the sealing, just like any other muzzleloader. This threaded portion is overbuilt, well exceeding the strength of the parent material according to inventor of the rifle, patent-holder Henry Ball. In fact, the threaded portion is substantially longer and stronger than other top quality muzzleloaders on the market, such as the Thompson Encore. The extra snout material is not a structural part of the breech plug design. It is a great convenience to the Savage 10ML-II owner, as this smooth area can be easily gripped to remove the Savage 10ML-II�s unique vent-liner, with no possible damage to the breech plug threads themselves.



The Savage 10ML-II has withstood pressures exceeding 129,000 PSI in destructive tests; a 300% service factor above and beyond any Savage 10ML-II recommended load. The Savage 10ML-II is the only muzzleloader ever made that has 100% SAAMI specification proof tested barrels, and the only muzzleloader in the industry that is 100% test-fired prior to shipment. As a result of this erring on the side of safety, the Savage 10ML-II has the best safety record of any muzzleloader ever made. No named consumer has ever been injured by using a Savage 10ML-II in its five year history, over tens of millions of shots. Safety is one of the best reasons to own a Savage 10ML-II; not to shy away from it.



Sadly, it has been Toby Bridges himself who has loudly touted the use of hot, untested �duplex� loads, the mixing of two powders not allowed by any powder manufacturer, firearms manufacturer, or any reloading manual. The design of the Savage 10ML system has been proudly displayed in cutaway form at the SHOT SHOW and other venues, where Savage Arms has been recently awarded both �Manufacturer of the Year,� and �Manufacturer of the Year.� Its beefy, overbuilt construction has never been a secret.



It should be clear to your readers that the information supplied to NCS is malicious, and is borne from sour grapes by a disgruntled ex-employee of Savage Arms. Henry Ball, the inventor of the 10ML in the first place, also fired Toby Bridges earlier this year for not doing his job, and it is a matter of the public record that Mr. Ball is suing Mr. Bridges for his repeated failures to perform.



I will close with a direct quote from Toby Bridges, who published this on his website on August 25, 2004, after six years of his extensive study of the Savage 10ML muzzleloader:



"First, let's take care of your safety concern. Let me ask you, how long do you think a long established company such as Savage Arms would remain in business in today's lawsuit happy society if they did knowingly manufacture and market a dangerous muzzleloader design?


The Savage smokeless muzzleloader has now been on the market for five years...and rest assured that there have not been any injuries due to catastrophic failures of the Model 10ML II. This rifle is no more dangerous, or prone to being blown up, with the recommended smokeless powder loads than any other muzzleloading rifle on the market loaded with the recommended loads of the rifle manufacturer. Savage Arms has done an outstanding job of engineering this rifle to safely handle the pressures of loads built with medium burn rate powders such as Accurate Arms 5744, IMR4227 or VihtaVuori N110 (or a half-dozen other similar burn rate powders).

Not only has Savage tested this rifle to insure that the receiver, breech plug, bolt and barrel will stand up to thousands and thousands of rounds shooting their recognized "maximum loads" of these powders, they also severely abused several test rifles with multiple powder charges and multiple saboted bullets to push pressures well over 100,000 p.s.i. That's about 2 1/2 to 3 times the working pressures produced by the recommended loads for the Model 10ML II."

-- Toby Bridges, HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING, 8/25/2004.


Randy Wakeman
12362 S. Oxford Lane
Plainfield, Illinois 60544
USA

Thanks for the info. I will have to give the Savage another look.

Catmandu