Does anyone know anything about the Rossi smokeless powder muzzleloader? It is inexpensive compared to the Savage model but I have not heard any reports about it.

Anyone who has a state or district that allows inlines , and especially those with smokeless powder, better clean up your own acts.

You are about to loose all your so-called muzzleloading priveledges. They will be gone in five years at most because of these so called innovations.

Ever hear of a catridge gun?

Performance is becoming the same and will come under the same restrictions. Responsible muzzleloader shooters are supporters and advocates against these infernal machines.

Our club is actively educating our legislators about these, and in Montana, we expect to be the leader in the fight for the sensible devision between the catagories, even though it isn't an issue here.

Best place for a battle ground.

We wrote the first regulations nearly 25 years ago in this state when patched round ball was the norm, rather than the exception. We have already prevented a muzzleloading season in this state because of inlines within the last couple years.

Wise up or loose them.

I bet there is a lot of guys pissed at you for preventing them a muzzle loading season????

Yeah, get off your high horse and stop acting like an anti-hunter. I may not be a fan of certain types of hunting but I like the idea of their practitioner's support if my preferred methods come under fire. In-fighting is the last thing needed in a sport that is losing ground every day on a per-capita basis.

More power to you if you want to wear some buckskins and go after it but rest assured that even with an in-line it's still much more challenging than cartridge rifles. The performance may be inching upward all of the time but one still has but one shot.

Lighten up Francis!!

Reed

You have my attention, I would like to here the facts on this issue and weigh them out myself. Anyone care to elaborate on both sides of this coin?

Ric

What these modernizations will mean is MORE reductions on centerfire and muzzleloading seasons.
The basis of hunting seasons was set on harvest quotas and now that those who did not accept the limitations of Primative firearms, (cap lock and flinch lock) have increased the ability of just anyone to go out and hunt muzzleloading seasons with an increase in kills, there will have to be a total reduction in harvest in some manner.

In some states the deer herd is continuing to expand at such a rate that firearms type restrictions are unimportant and those who just want to harvest another deer can do so with their style of firearm and those of us who shoot muzzleloaders can use our firearms with little or no impact on the herd.
For those western states where development is going to continue to damage herd carrying capacities and some species are already in a decline "improvements" do not likely bode well for future hunting seasons.

The gear weenie race has changed many a good thing in the shooting sports as it has "improved things" . . . just look at some of the shooting styles and how new organizations are having to be created just to gain back the style of shooting the orignal premise was based on!

Change is inevitible, not necessarily good, but inevitiible.

Just as flinch lock shooters look down on cap gun shooters because they will not learn to shoot a "true muzzleloader" then others will look down at the modern changes. I guess the quest to overcome the limitations of certain styles of firearms rather than live with them will keep things changing.

As sad as it is, the number of hunters still declines.

It is hard for nature to compete with the many splendid wonders a mall offers.

LouisB

Finally stepping off his soap box.
to the joy of many!

I hunt with traditional caplocks. I could care less if you are afraid to try something different.In Oregon, the state has restricted many of the so-called innovations(mostly marketing hype)out of fear that hunters would exceed the quotas. As examples, we must not use any but ordinary iron sights, we must not use anything but loose powder, ignition must be open, etc.Numerous questionaires have been sent to practioners of the form, which "seem" to have lead to this outcome. I think that the following statements are true: The average hunter is no better off with "new - tech" muzzleloaders than traditional muzzleloaders. The average hunter is not a very good marksman. It does not take a 1/2 cupful of black powder to kill an elk or deer. With the open sight regulations, it makes no difference at all how long the trajectory of your load carries out--100 yds. is a long shot with such sights. 209 primers have probably never killed an animal yet. My idiot hunting partner foolishly kills elk each year with 70 gr. fffg Goex and a .530 roundball---EVERYONE knows this is inadequate. If you load 150 gr. of anything in the barrel of a rifle, it is going to kick like hell, make a lot of smoke, waste a lot of powder, and kill just like 70 gr. fffg and a .530 roundball. Wood is frequently pretty, plastic is nearly never pretty. I don't think that it makes much, if any difference, what kind of muzzleloader you use, but many people, including those who work in wildlife management, believe the hype used to sell muzzleloaders. Oh well, Chuck

Oh yeah--the advantage of the "anti-progress" is that a lot of folks gave up on muzzleloader seasons in Oregon. How bad can this be--hunting all day and seeing but 2 other hunters....AND, if you really like the fancy same-as-a-centerfire-muzzleloader, you get to use this type in a centerfire season, as is appropriate...everybody gets to hunt with folks bearing simliar equipment--what could be more fair?!?! ..Chuck..

Gee, I for one would certainly have liked to see someone respond to the original
question about the Rossi ML!!!!

Hey guys -- what's good for my state may not be good for yours, and visa versa.
Waksupi, you must be one heck of a lookin' person, cuz you have already cut off
your own nose to spite your face -- and then to admonish anyone else here that
THEY are about to lose their ML privaleges over THEIR actions. Go hug a tree.

Ryba 56 -

Hate to burst your bubble, guy, but just downloaded the PDF file
Rossi has on the 'net, and it specifically warns against using
smokeless powder. It advises using only stinky Pyrodex.

The ML plus the .243 barrel can't be beat in price, though --
$252 for both (SRP). If they are both shooters, that would be
the greatest buy out there!!!

Danno, I just was reading that manual before coming to the forum. They are just a wee bit tooo restrictive on loads don't you think? Using anything other than Pyrodex pellets voids the warranty the way I read it. And you most certainly cannot shoot cast bullets - voids the warranty.

Good grief!

underclocked -

It would be my guess that it was tested only with Pyrodex. The
whole manual down to accepted warrantee loads suggests it
was written by paranoid attorneys. They probably think they
cannot be careful enough, and in these days of constant
"litigation", who knows?

In reality, they can probably take anything the Huntsman can
take (looks like a carbon copy, even though the barrels are
probably NOT interchangeable), UNLESS the steel used is of
lower quality and that would change everything.

I have to disagree with the editor of the first reply (unrelated to the man's question, BTW) In NY, they let us use scopes for the first time this year, I have not yet installed one, neither do I think I will. But I have changed to an inline, from the previous Hawkens I have had. These rifles (caps, all of them) were extremely accurate with a tang peepsight installed. I decided on a new inline one time after a few days in the adirondacks, carrying around an 11 or 12 pound rifle with a pack was no fun...I have watched NY's regulations change from a patched ball only, to buffalo bullets and then sabots, now inlines and scopes! I have seen the seasons get longer, the bag limits get more generous, and the issuance of additional tags easy! I know NY has a Whitetail problem, and apparently so do the biologists....I appreciate them and all of the hard work they do.

OMG, Waksupi, you use a rifle!! What an outrage. The ruination of the sport is in sight. We use rocks where I hunt and they must be thrown by hand. Some counties are allowing the use of spears but my club is heading up a protest to ban their use. Come on guys lets get back to basics before we all lose are privileges.

Ryba 56, I have'nt heard about the Rossi but I have heard about the Savage and smokeless powder sounds like a good Idea to me.

I guess the key word here is MUZZLELOADER. If it loads from muzzle then it belongs in the muzzleloading season.

[ 01-08-2003, 07:17: Message edited by: Turkeyshooter ]

waksupi, you may be right about Montana, but are 180* off the mark in places like New York, where the D.E.C. boys are trying to find new ways to kill more deer (like bowhunter212 said above). The varmints are eating people out of house & home in a number of locations, and can't be killed fast enough! For example, NY just legalized the use of scopes on ML during the ML season for this very reason. Whether a particular weapon is "sporting" or not doesn't enter into their decision-making process!!

[ 01-11-2003, 19:56: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

Well, we hunt Elk in the Oregon Coast Range between Forest Grove and Seaside. There's a preserve for the animals and well-regulated seasons.

I'm responding to the "70 grs. of ffg Goex and a .530" lead ball" comment -- as being inadequate for Elk:

First, fffg is pistol powder. You can shoot it in a rifle, but you'll get better performance using ffg -- like is intended for a rifle. You can use a heavier load of powder with fffg over ffg, but there's really not much need.

When you overload the charge, most of the powder gets shot out the end of the barrel -- unburned. The big increase in recoil that you feel is essentially caused by a "larger/heavier projectile." That "projectile" is the weight of the powder being shot down the bore. Some 40 or 50 grs. of unburned powder, acting as a "projectile" in the bore will increase recoil, but it won't increase velocity in any appreciable sense.

Rule of thumb for charging ffg powder is to load 1.5 times the bore diameter in grains. Hence, 1.5 times 54 cal. gives you 81 grains. 81 grains of ffg and a 54 cal round ball (.535") is a pretty hefty load.

The .535" ball runs about 220 to 230 gr. (I'd have to break out a scale and so will rely on memory.) That's in the range of 45 ACP or 44 magnum bullet weight.

44 magnum bullets run .429" and 45 ACP bullets run .451". The ball runs .530" to .535" -- subtantially larger than these smokeless calibers. Lead ball can be "alloyed" with a view toward penetration of animal hides, breaking of bone. We use a hard ball, intending to penetrate.

80 grs. of ffg or Pyrodex equivalent and a .535" ball in a 30" bbl. 1:60 rifling produces about 1500 fps velocity. That's right in the ballpark of a 44 magnum -- rifle.

Now, we're all enthusiastic about the lore of "one shot, one kill," and indeed, the rifle (54 cal. Lyman Plains Hunter, cap lock -- Sometimes we use flint, depends on the wet.) is single shot.

But there are two or three hunters working together, hence, two or three shots. If the first shot doesn't strike the target, then we missed. It might take two shots to kill the Elk. But we have two shots, or three depending on the size of the hunting party.

Oregon allows use of the plastic "load tubes" in regulated hunts. These pre-package the powder, ball and patch in a tube for a fast reload. The tube drops the charge into the bore. I can reload in about 15 seconds.

The second and third hunter, in the meantime, are approaching the animal for a second shot. (If the animal wasn't hit with the first shot, there's nothing to approach.)

So, we have two or three shots. We keep the range for taking game to about 100 yds. We work as a hunting team. It's more difficult this way, but we're practicing "skill" in the hunt. -- Otherwise we'd wait for the regular season and sit in a stand with a .300 Win. Mag on a bipod, with a scope, and take animals at 300 yds.

We don't wear "buckskins." I prefer Polar-Fleece, Gor-Tex, Polypro thermals and Danner boots. The "possibles bag" is nylon-cordura. We use a GPS.

[ 01-14-2003, 17:52: Message edited by: Genghis ]